login
Ditch the pull buoy?
-
No new posts
|
 2017-02-09 6:28 PM |
Elite  3779      Ontario |  Subject: Ditch the pull buoy?Coming back from a non sports injury to my shoulder that basically side lined my swimming for a couple of months. Taking it easy at the moment in terms of swimming as I test out the shoulder but it seems almost back to 100%. Before getting hurt I would mix swims about 50% with/50% without pull buoy. I'm roughly 3sec/100M faster with the buoy and don't feel I need to work as hard while going faster, feeling smoother, etc. I know the buoy hides my swim defects, but it also makes the swim more enjoyable. Coming back I haven't brought the buoy to the pool once - but I miss it, even though I know it's a bit of a crutch. I'm telling myself to avoid using it and I'll become a better swimmer, but I also know that using it I could really focus on my stroke more..so becoming a better swimmer??? Last point, 10 years in the sport and zero non-wetsuit swims. Keep it or lose it? Edited by GoFaster 2017-02-09 6:29 PM |
| 2017-02-09 7:39 PM in reply to: GoFaster |
Regular 694 Tucson, AZ | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? The pull bouy is fine. Frankly, though you still need to make things challenging even with a pull bouy. If you are always reaching for a buoy as a cructh then that is the wrong approach. As you said, the pull bouy can be a great wetsuit-like device. Switch it up and use the pull buoy on similar sets as you do without but with 5 seconds less rest. |
| 2017-02-10 7:02 AM in reply to: GoFaster |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? Nothing wrong with a buoy if used correctly. Sounds like you use it as a crutch instead of a tool. Go ahead and use the buoy but not as much as you were. cut it down to 10% of the time, use it in your warm ups, but not your main set. Or rarely in your main sets. |
| 2017-02-10 8:02 AM in reply to: #5213114 |
| New user 175 | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? Why ditch it? The OP made it a point "zero nonwetsuit swims." Over a ten year period at that. Seems to work for the OP. To become an overall better swimmer, sure. To keep their own status quo, why not? |
| 2017-02-10 8:23 AM in reply to: goforit |
| 553 St Catharines, Ontario | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? For what its worth I love having the pull bouy for some of my session (short, crap session btw). It tidies up a lot of your form and body position and so you can really focus on an area of improvement. That way my brain can shut off trying to think of everything all at once and just focus on head position (looking down, not creating a great fuss when breathing etc) or not putting the brakes on with my hand going forward or completing the stroke or whatever. I want to experiment with a band as well. Which I think can juts be an old bike inner tube. |
| 2017-02-10 11:45 AM in reply to: GoFaster |
| 249 | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? I have a few observations here that might make for interesting comments. I'm an adult onset swimmer and I am 58. Never swam until I was 56, and I mean never swam. I am for sure still learning. It is a highly technical and humbling sport. If I get a little cocky about my progress on the bike or run, all I have to do is get in the pool, and that always takes care of it! This might seem like a big generalization, but over the last year, I have seen (just my opinion) a trend when someone mentions a training aid such as a pull buoy, you get a lot of advice not to use, or use very sparingly, for a number of reasons, the 2 most prevalent are: covers up defects as OP said, or, they are a crutch, like training wheels on a bike. Same with other things such as kickboards, fins. I like to use a PB during my cool down, or at times when I am strictly focusing on my catch and pull. For me, I can't go back 40 years and start swimming. My son excelled at swimming in college, and he started when he was 6. Swimming takes a lot of time, and thousands of yards a week in the pool. So, my observations on training aids as a totally unqualified source: 1) Pull buoy. To me, almost exactly duplicates a wetsuit swim. If all your tri's are going to be in wetsuits, you are OK. If not, you will be crushed by the time you get out of the water. Good for working on catch/pull, and possibly body roll. 2) Kickboard. Honestly, and people will laugh, I use this for running. Not literally, but by using it in pool, it strengthens my hip adductors? (front hip muscles). As far as position in water, not sure it is a help, as my head is up. So, I am not duplicating swim form when I use one, which is a concern. But, since I started doing a 100 kick during workouts, my pain (during runs) that I used to have in upper front hips has gone away. 3) Fins. Don't really like them. Thought they would be fun. Go so fast, cant keep my catch/pull/recovery in rhythm. Master coach told me they build ankle flexibility, so I do a few laps with them. To me, fins are a much greater "crutch" than a PB. 4) Snorkel. Probably makes sense for working on catch/pull and kick without worrying about breathing. BUT, then I am not working on body roll, breathing. For this reason, I don't use one. Conclusion, to me the PB is the least "crutch" training aid I have used. All the others tend to become addicting, and can alter my form and technique. Last thing: I swim in 2 different college campus pools, and they both have bins and bins of these training aids, but almost always say not to use.....odd |
| 2017-02-10 9:56 PM in reply to: GoFaster |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? Couple things to think about.... When getting back into swimming you will naturally fatigue more quickly than usual. Because of this your hips will most likely drop faster thus greater more drag and load on your shoulders. More load on your shoulders might put the shoulder in a compromising position. Use the buoy as an aid to manage fatigue and keep you in a good healthy position for your shoulders. Buoys are fine given your circumstances. Cant they be a crutch? Yes. Can they be a very useful and effective tool? Yes. |
| 2017-02-11 5:49 AM in reply to: GoFaster |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? Originally posted by GoFaster I'm telling myself to avoid using it and I'll become a better swimmer, but I also know that using it I could really focus on my stroke more..so becoming a better swimmer??? I spent all last summer swimming in a lake, always with a wetsuit. My swim in OWS improved. But when fall came around and I got back in the pool I was considerably slower than in the spring (comparing pool swim to pool swim). I struggled to figure it out. I started doing thing like 2x100 with pll bouy, 2 without, 2 with, 2 without and the pattern was very obvious. The difference between my swim times with a pull buoy and no pull bouy increased. In other words, the wetsuit all summer got me lazy with body position. I did a lot of sets like 16x100, 4 without pullbouy, 4 with, 4 without, 4 with and I noticed I slightly started getting the delta between the two down. I very intentionally would try to feel the same body position with and without the pull buoy. I use less and less, but I do put it on to see what the delta is now and then. It's my barometer of bad body position. When I did get back in the pool, fixed things, my wetsuit OWS number improved as well I don't believe you will develop proper body position using a pull buoy all the time. People can argue that body position is less critical for wetsuit swimming. I think it's a cop out. Good body position is important for all kinds of swimming and anyone serious about this sport will eventually swim without a wetsuit. And how many times are people crapping their roka floattie shorts the day before a race because it "may not be wetsuit legal". To your comment : "I use a pull buoy so I can focus on my stroke". A good stroke is body position, timing of kick....and many other factors. You are removing some critical components of the stroke by using a pull buoy all the time. Sometimes you need to isolate components with a kickboard, snorkel, pull buoy but you certainly don't want to do it all the time. If swimming is so much easier with a pull buoy, you're stroke needs work. Use the puil buoy to identify and fix your weakness, not mask it. |
| 2017-02-11 4:15 PM in reply to: marcag |
Official BT Coach 18500 Indianapolis, Indiana Gold member | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by GoFaster I'm telling myself to avoid using it and I'll become a better swimmer, but I also know that using it I could really focus on my stroke more..so becoming a better swimmer??? I spent all last summer swimming in a lake, always with a wetsuit. My swim in OWS improved. But when fall came around and I got back in the pool I was considerably slower than in the spring (comparing pool swim to pool swim). I struggled to figure it out. I started doing thing like 2x100 with pll bouy, 2 without, 2 with, 2 without and the pattern was very obvious. The difference between my swim times with a pull buoy and no pull bouy increased. In other words, the wetsuit all summer got me lazy with body position. I did a lot of sets like 16x100, 4 without pullbouy, 4 with, 4 without, 4 with and I noticed I slightly started getting the delta between the two down. I very intentionally would try to feel the same body position with and without the pull buoy. I use less and less, but I do put it on to see what the delta is now and then. It's my barometer of bad body position. When I did get back in the pool, fixed things, my wetsuit OWS number improved as well I don't believe you will develop proper body position using a pull buoy all the time. People can argue that body position is less critical for wetsuit swimming. I think it's a cop out. Good body position is important for all kinds of swimming and anyone serious about this sport will eventually swim without a wetsuit. And how many times are people crapping their roka floattie shorts the day before a race because it "may not be wetsuit legal". To your comment : "I use a pull buoy so I can focus on my stroke". A good stroke is body position, timing of kick....and many other factors. You are removing some critical components of the stroke by using a pull buoy all the time. Sometimes you need to isolate components with a kickboard, snorkel, pull buoy but you certainly don't want to do it all the time. If swimming is so much easier with a pull buoy, you're stroke needs work. Use the puil buoy to identify and fix your weakness, not mask it. Hey Neil! Been awhile! You probably know which "side" I will come down on in this debate. First, a little history of where pull buoys came from. Back in the 70's swimmers started using paddles. I happen to know this because I was there and it was a gentleman named Jim Montrella who first developed them. Jim was my swimming coach and he wanted a tool to help perfect stroke technique with his swimmers. We cut up a bunch of old truck inner tubes and created bands that we looped in a figure-8 around our ankles to isolate the pull. Using the paddles in conjunction with the ankle bands allowed the paddles to "speak" to you and force proper technique. One of the flaws that the paddle/band combination regularly highlighted was improper balance in the water - hips/legs dropping. It wasn't long before other teams began using paddles/bands and in due course we started hearing about buoys to "keep your legs from dropping." Jim would have none of that. His opinion was - learn to swim properly and maintain proper balance in the water. Over the years, the pull buoy has gone from an accepted tool to help during pull sets while using paddles and bands to a crutch often used by swimmers that have less than optimal balance in the water - dropping hips/legs. My nearly 50-years of experience has shown me, as Marc so eloquently stated, that over-use of a pull buoy will do nothing to improve your stroke. Indeed it will likely introduce more problems than it solves. If you want to use a pull buoy with paddles and a band around your ankle I am absolutely in favor of and encourage that. However, if you want to use a buoy at any time other than when paddles are on your hands I submit you are using the buoy in a way that it was never intended to be used and the buoy has crossed the line from a tool to a crutch. |
| 2017-02-12 10:57 AM in reply to: k9car363 |
Master 2406 Bellevue, WA | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? Originally posted by k9car363 Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by GoFaster I'm telling myself to avoid using it and I'll become a better swimmer, but I also know that using it I could really focus on my stroke more..so becoming a better swimmer??? I don't believe you will develop proper body position using a pull buoy all the time. People can argue that body position is less critical for wetsuit swimming. I think it's a cop out. Good body position is important for all kinds of swimming and anyone serious about this sport will eventually swim without a wetsuit. And how many times are people crapping their roka floattie shorts the day before a race because it "may not be wetsuit legal". If swimming is so much easier with a pull buoy, you're stroke needs work. Use the puil buoy to identify and fix your weakness, not mask it. Over the years, the pull buoy has gone from an accepted tool to help during pull sets while using paddles and bands to a crutch often used by swimmers that have less than optimal balance in the water - dropping hips/legs. My nearly 50-years of experience has shown me, as Marc so eloquently stated, that over-use of a pull buoy will do nothing to improve your stroke. Indeed it will likely introduce more problems than it solves. If you want to use a pull buoy with paddles and a band around your ankle I am absolutely in favor of and encourage that. However, if you want to use a buoy at any time other than when paddles are on your hands I submit you are using the buoy in a way that it was never intended to be used and the buoy has crossed the line from a tool to a crutch. (shorted quote thread above) Pull buoy addiction is real. It's like a drug, like oxy or meth or crack. There I am are in the pool, suffering some slow sets, flailing a bit, and I know (I KNOW) the solution is right there. Jam the pull buoy right on in there between my legs, stop kicking, and ah. The Joy! No flailing, faster sets. And I sooth myself by saying "I'm working on my stroke". It's a lie. And I know it.
|
| 2017-02-13 11:03 AM in reply to: brucemorgan |
Champion 7704 Williamston, Michigan | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? I guess I am the only one who HATES the pull buoy? I am so much slower with it and it makes my shoulder hurt. I avoid it. I get better stroke feedback with the paddles. I do love my fins. I have had a bunch of knee surgery and I sometimes do what I call fin pulling.....have the fins on don't kick and drag my legs. It improves my body position but doesn't stress my sore shoulder as much
As with all things these are training TOOLS. Use as you see fit |
| 2017-02-13 12:22 PM in reply to: Socks |
Veteran 1677 Houston, Texas | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? Originally posted by Socks I guess I am the only one who HATES the pull buoy? I am so much slower with it and it makes my shoulder hurt. I avoid it. I get better stroke feedback with the paddles. I do love my fins. I have had a bunch of knee surgery and I sometimes do what I call fin pulling.....have the fins on don't kick and drag my legs. It improves my body position but doesn't stress my sore shoulder as much
As with all things these are training TOOLS. Use as you see fit You are not alone in your buoy hatred! I thought I was alone for the longest time, and then two other girls joined our masters swim group over the past six months or so, and both also hate the pull buoy. I haven't met any guy who dislikes it, but I now know of at least four women who do. I feel like it throws my balance off. I'm not a big kicker, but I feel incredibly awkward and awful with a pull buoy, so I quit using it |
| 2017-02-13 12:28 PM in reply to: ligersandtions |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? Originally posted by ligersandtions Originally posted by Socks I guess I am the only one who HATES the pull buoy? I am so much slower with it and it makes my shoulder hurt. I avoid it. I get better stroke feedback with the paddles. I do love my fins. I have had a bunch of knee surgery and I sometimes do what I call fin pulling.....have the fins on don't kick and drag my legs. It improves my body position but doesn't stress my sore shoulder as much
As with all things these are training TOOLS. Use as you see fit You are not alone in your buoy hatred! I thought I was alone for the longest time, and then two other girls joined our masters swim group over the past six months or so, and both also hate the pull buoy. I haven't met any guy who dislikes it, but I now know of at least four women who do. I feel like it throws my balance off. I'm not a big kicker, but I feel incredibly awkward and awful with a pull buoy, so I quit using it Same thing at our masters. Ladies hate it, guys love it Coach claims it has to do with difference in buoyancy of derrières. I was never sure if he was kidding or not. |
| 2017-02-13 10:57 PM in reply to: #5213146 |
Veteran 2842 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? "It's a lie. And I know it." FTW I'm now just getting back into swimming, and the buoy has helped with two things. It allows me to "rest" while swimming easy between hard sets without it, so I don't have to sit at wall for a long time getting my wind for proper form and can add some extra yards for the upper bod as I build some fitness. This is a temporary use... Second, much less frequent use when I finally get back to being fit, is as a tool to isolate other parts of stroke, as mentioned by others. Couple years back I committed to learning to swim with better form and ended up using tools less (not never, just much less than before when the PB was a crutch, as it is for me at the moment). It took a while to get into shape/fit, but then was able to markedly improve form, and the delta to time with a PB dropped a LOT (similar to Marc's experience, if perhaps in reverse). Was just in time, too, as the HIM I did just a couple months later was a no wetsuit swim. I was actually excited to try it and had a - for me - really good swim. TLDR - if used as a tool, good. Crutch, bad. Learn proper form and you'll rock with or without a wetsuit, but that takes a biggish commitment. Matt |
| 2017-02-14 10:03 AM in reply to: mcmanusclan5 |
Master 3888 Overland Park, KS | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? When I do a set of 100's, like 16 of them, I'll use the buoy every 4th 100. It serves as a reminder of how my body position SHOULD be. It also does give me a bit of a "rest" but I don't ease up on my strokes/length, I still take it out hard. Not sure of that's considered a great use of the tool but I told a swim coach last year what I was doing and he thought that wasn't a bad idea. I only use paddles in the warm-up swim, usually a 300 pull. I haven't used the angle bands yet, probably should. |
| 2017-02-14 3:25 PM in reply to: reecealan |
| Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? Originally posted by reecealan When I do a set of 100's, like 16 of them, I'll use the buoy every 4th 100. It serves as a reminder of how my body position SHOULD be. It also does give me a bit of a "rest" but I don't ease up on my strokes/length, I still take it out hard. Not sure of that's considered a great use of the tool but I told a swim coach last year what I was doing and he thought that wasn't a bad idea. I only use paddles in the warm-up swim, usually a 300 pull. I haven't used the angle bands yet, probably should. Not that another voice needs to be added to the choir, but... This is pretty much me too, some days I won't use it at all, some days for a few of the repeats. I don't use paddles as i've had shoulder issues and don't like them As i get closer to a long wetsuit swim, I will use it more as IMO it replicates the wet suited body position a little better, and I don't kick much at all when in a wetsuit. I also used it last year (and will again this year) more in the lead up to a swim/run even where you have to carry everything with you, and I put the shoes between my legs like a pull buoy. |
| 2017-02-14 4:35 PM in reply to: ChrisM |
Master 3888 Overland Park, KS | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? I'm supposed to to my 1 hour postal swim tonight so one hour of TOOL-LESS swimming. We'll see how I do compared to last year and if there has been any improvements. I'll be missing that pull buoy about 30 minutes into the swim I'm sure, LOL I"m just glad it's SCY and hopefully my turns are clean. |
| 2017-02-14 5:01 PM in reply to: reecealan |
| Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? Originally posted by reecealan I'm supposed to to my 1 hour postal swim tonight so one hour of TOOL-LESS swimming. We'll see how I do compared to last year and if there has been any improvements. I'll be missing that pull buoy about 30 minutes into the swim I'm sure, LOL I"m just glad it's SCY and hopefully my turns are clean. Good luck! |
| 2017-02-15 10:25 AM in reply to: reecealan |
Veteran 2842 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? Originally posted by reecealan I'm supposed to to my 1 hour postal swim tonight so one hour of TOOL-LESS swimming. We'll see how I do compared to last year and if there has been any improvements. I'll be missing that pull buoy about 30 minutes into the swim I'm sure, LOL I"m just glad it's SCY and hopefully my turns are clean. Yow - sounds awesomely brutal, but what exactly is a postal swim? Sorry if that's obvious, but I'm both really intrigued and a bit more dense than most (hence my swim times, I guess). As an aside, or return tangentially to the OP, I am actually planning to use the PB on most of my swim tonight, as this is a taper week to a running race and I'm trying to totally save my legs (no swim on the skedj, but I'm missing the pool). A VERY specific and infrequent PB use. Matt |
| 2017-02-15 10:50 AM in reply to: mcmanusclan5 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? In the interest of fair and balanced reporting....here's the other side of the argument summed up pretty well. Take it for what it's worth.....it's another opinion among thousands. |
| 2017-02-15 10:57 AM in reply to: 0 |
Master 3888 Overland Park, KS | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? Originally posted by mcmanusclan5 Originally posted by reecealan I'm supposed to to my 1 hour postal swim tonight so one hour of TOOL-LESS swimming. We'll see how I do compared to last year and if there has been any improvements. I'll be missing that pull buoy about 30 minutes into the swim I'm sure, LOL I"m just glad it's SCY and hopefully my turns are clean. Yow - sounds awesomely brutal, but what exactly is a postal swim? Sorry if that's obvious, but I'm both really intrigued and a bit more dense than most (hence my swim times, I guess). As an aside, or return tangentially to the OP, I am actually planning to use the PB on most of my swim tonight, as this is a taper week to a running race and I'm trying to totally save my legs (no swim on the skedj, but I'm missing the pool). A VERY specific and infrequent PB use. Matt It's a US Masters Swimming thing they do each year. Basically you swim in your local pool and someone takes your split times. Our masters group does it in place of a workout for those who want to do it. We have 5 lanes for masters swims so we use 2-3 lanes for the postal swim, other lanes are used for the workout. USMS postal web address here -> https://www.clubassistant.com/club/meet_information.cfm?c=1308&smid=... Our masters coach take the split times and enters them into the online database then you can see where you can rank nationally. A one hour continuous swim in a pool is not the most exciting thing to do but a pretty good gauge of long distance swim fitness. A lot of our swimmers are not members if USMS but they still do the swim just to see where they're at fitness wise. Edited by reecealan 2017-02-15 10:57 AM |
| 2017-02-15 11:00 AM in reply to: reecealan |
Veteran 2842 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? Originally posted by reecealan Originally posted by mcmanusclan5 It's a US Masters Swimming thing they do each year. Basically you swim in your local pool and someone takes your split times. Our masters group does it in place of a workout for those who want to do it. We have 5 lanes for masters swims so we use 2-3 lanes for the postal swim, other lanes are used for the workout. USMS postal web address here -> https://www.clubassistant.com/club/meet_information.cfm?c=1308&s... Our masters coach take the split times and enters them into the online database then you can see where you can rank nationally. A one hour continuous swim in a pool is not the most exciting thing to do but a pretty good gauge of long distance swim fitness. A lot of our swimmers are not members if USMS but they still do the swim just to see where they're at fitness wise. Originally posted by reecealan I'm supposed to to my 1 hour postal swim tonight so one hour of TOOL-LESS swimming. We'll see how I do compared to last year and if there has been any improvements. I'll be missing that pull buoy about 30 minutes into the swim I'm sure, LOL I"m just glad it's SCY and hopefully my turns are clean. Yow - sounds awesomely brutal, but what exactly is a postal swim? Sorry if that's obvious, but I'm both really intrigued and a bit more dense than most (hence my swim times, I guess). As an aside, or return tangentially to the OP, I am actually planning to use the PB on most of my swim tonight, as this is a taper week to a running race and I'm trying to totally save my legs (no swim on the skedj, but I'm missing the pool). A VERY specific and infrequent PB use. Matt Badass. I think I'd need to learn flip turns to tackle that long a pool swim... Good luck! Matt |
| 2017-02-15 11:07 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Veteran 2842 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? Originally posted by Left Brain In the interest of fair and balanced reporting....here's the other side of the argument summed up pretty well. Take it for what it's worth.....it's another opinion among thousands. Interesting (as with most things tri, diversity of opinion abounds). I suspect that Reece's comment of, "Still taking it out hard" when using one has as much as anything to do with how much one gets out of using a PB... Matt |
| 2017-02-15 1:10 PM in reply to: 0 |
Master 3888 Overland Park, KS | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? [ Badass. I think I'd need to learn flip turns to tackle that long a pool swim... Good luck! Matt ] Thanks, My official distance ended up being 4,110 yards (they pro-rate partial distances at the 1 hour mark). My goal was 4,200, stretch goal was 4,300. I felt short of breath after about 500 yards so breathing didn't feel optimum not sure why. I finally felt like breathing was good 3/4th the way into it but by that time I was feeling the fatigue. Had a had a pull buoy I think I would have made the 4,300 LOL! Just got to keep working on that body position, high elbow catch bla bla bla.... Edited by reecealan 2017-02-15 1:11 PM |
| 2017-02-16 12:24 PM in reply to: reecealan |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Ditch the pull buoy? |
|
|
|
|
| |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
|
| ||||
|
| |||
|
| |||
|
|
View profile
Add to friends
Go to training log
Go to race log
Send a message
View album
CONNECT WITH FACEBOOK