General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Long rides / runs on consecutive days? Rss Feed  
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2008-06-16 10:35 AM

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Subject: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
Who does long rides/runs on consecutive days and who splits them? Which is better? I know Gordo says that they should be split, right?

I understand the point of doing long run the day after a long bike is to condition your body to running after a long ride - but that's really what bricks are for. I just feel that my long runs are not as good quality because I'm not 100%.

If I have the time during the week, should I split my long rides/runs?


2008-06-16 10:45 AM
in reply to: #1468873

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?

VanCityJ - 2008-06-16 11:35 AM

I understand the point of doing long run the day after a long bike is to condition your body to running after a long ride - but that's really what bricks are for.

While each of those (consecutive long bike/long run and bricks) may help you mentally, in fact, neither has any basis in physiology--i.e., your body is not being "conditioned" to do anything special for the most part.

If your long runs are not "good quality" following your long ride and you are able to separate them in your weekly schedule then, by all means, do so.

2008-06-16 10:52 AM
in reply to: #1468873

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?

^^^ x 2 of what JK said. If you can split your long run mid week and do your long ride(s) over the weekend you will get better training sessions.

2008-06-16 10:54 AM
in reply to: #1468873

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
I was hoping to hear from you two! I think I'm going to start doing that....what's the point in doing a workout if it's not going to be a good quality one? I don't want to be putting in the hours just to have the time done.
2008-06-16 11:03 AM
in reply to: #1468930

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
VanCityJ - 2008-06-16 10:54 AM I was hoping to hear from you two! I think I'm going to start doing that....what's the point in doing a workout if it's not going to be a good quality one? I don't want to be putting in the hours just to have the time done.
There will be a few times during your training that you will do a few tough bricks as race rehearsals to test pacing/nutrition but in general leave the quality sessions (intensity or volume) separated so you can push better/harder on those and optimize your training adaptations (fitness)
2008-06-16 11:07 AM
in reply to: #1468873

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
I find doing my long runs on Saturday and long rides on Sunday works better then bike Sat./run Sun. And the main reason I think most people do both long workout on sat/sun is becasue of time restraints.


2008-06-16 11:12 AM
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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?

newbie13 - 2008-06-16 12:07 PM I find doing my long runs on Saturday and long rides on Sunday works better then bike Sat./run Sun. And the main reason I think most people do both long workout on sat/sun is becasue of time restraints.

Yup - I don't have enough daylight to do a 3 hr ride on a weekday...

2008-06-16 11:13 AM
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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
I have always done long bikes on Saturday and long runs on Sunday. For me, the quality of my long runs hasn't suffered and I do believe that I benefit from that protocol. There are two different schools of thought on this, as Jorge and JK have correctly brought up and I think it is very dependent on the individual on how they structure these sessions as well as the oviuos time constraints.

Edited by bryancd 2008-06-16 11:14 AM
2008-06-16 11:17 AM
in reply to: #1468998

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
bryancd - 2008-06-16 11:13 AM I have always done long bikes on Saturday and long runs on Sunday. For me, the quality of my long runs hasn't suffered and I do believe that I benefit from that protocol. There are two different schools of thought on this, as Jorge and JK have correctly brought up and I think it is very dependent on the individual on how they structure these sessions as well as the oviuos time constraints.
you should try a training cycle (i.e. 4 weeks) doing your long run mid week and see if you notice that you can do more/better training and recover faster.
2008-06-16 11:26 AM
in reply to: #1468873

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?

You have brought up a good point that I've wondered about as well. I've always done my long run on Sat followed by a long bike on Sun. Because I work 6 days a week Sun is the only day I can get in a long ride. However I may be able to change my long run to mid week.

I think I may give that a try and see how I feel as I know some of my long rides have suffered because of dead legs from the previous days run. 

2008-06-16 12:45 PM
in reply to: #1468873

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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
Well, due to my work scheduled and what not... I have to do my long bike on Saturday (4-6 hour ride) and my long run on Sunday (2-3 hour run).



2008-06-16 12:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
It's just not a viable option with my work schedule to do quality long runs or rides during the week (I inevitably end up rushing preparations and cooldown), so--as seems to be common--I'll often do both on consecutive weekend days. I try not to synch up the longest ride and run of a cycle on the same weekend, though.
2008-06-16 1:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
amiine - 2008-06-16 11:52 AM

^^^ x 2 of what JK said. If you can split your long run mid week and do your long ride(s) over the weekend you will get better training sessions.

x3. I've been separating mine (in IM training), and so far so good.

2008-06-16 1:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
amiine - 2008-06-16 11:17 AM

bryancd - 2008-06-16 11:13 AM I have always done long bikes on Saturday and long runs on Sunday. For me, the quality of my long runs hasn't suffered and I do believe that I benefit from that protocol. There are two different schools of thought on this, as Jorge and JK have correctly brought up and I think it is very dependent on the individual on how they structure these sessions as well as the oviuos time constraints.
you should try a training cycle (i.e. 4 weeks) doing your long run mid week and see if you notice that you can do more/better training and recover faster.


I should and will give it a try after Vineman. The one thing I will say is that there is a dgeree of mental toughness you can get from heading out on a 16 mile run after a 75 mile hard ride the day before and being able to put it together. Yesetrday my legs felt pretty tired at the start of the long run but I hung, got myself collected and had a solid training morning. Takes a lot to get through those first few miles of feeling not so good and staying focused.
2008-06-16 1:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?

I definitely prefer separating them.  The argument (in favor of doing them back to back) is that you "learn" to run on tired legs. However, the kind of "tired" that your legs feel the day after a long ride is very different from the "tired" that your legs feel immediately off the bike, so really what you are learning to do is to run with legs that are not just tired but also sore and crampy from the previous day's effort, leading to crappy, shuffling, miserable runs with horrible form and increased risk of injury.

I do agree with Bryan that it builds mental toughness, but to me the risk is just not worth it.



Edited by Maine Rob 2008-06-16 1:22 PM
2008-06-16 1:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
I tend to do my long rides/runs on the weekend - long for me anyway. I do a 60-80 mile bike ride and a 15-18 mile run one on Saturday the other on Sunday. Both are long slow distance work - I use a heart rate monitor and work out. I have not had any problems. I couldn't say if it is better to split or keep the workouts together but I can say that for me I do not experience issues doing them on the same weekend. I also believe my weekday workout schedule is much lighter than others so I may recover slightly better over the week.

I do not understand what "risk" I would be taking by doing these activities on the same weekend. Are you concerned about overtraining? I think the HRM keeps me in check.

Edited by csibona 2008-06-16 1:41 PM


2008-06-16 1:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
bryancd - 2008-06-16 1:20 PM I should and will give it a try after Vineman. The one thing I will say is that there is a dgeree of mental toughness you can get from heading out on a 16 mile run after a 75 mile hard ride the day before and being able to put it together. Yesetrday my legs felt pretty tired at the start of the long run but I hung, got myself collected and had a solid training morning. Takes a lot to get through those first few miles of feeling not so good and staying focused.
no question about it, that's why on my 2nd post I said there are times that doing some long bricks/race rehearsals are important. I just don't think there is much to gain doing so on a constant basis physiologically speaking and I tried that as an athlete to test the difference for myself. I think this can benefit most athletes but for an athlete like you it could enahce your training even more  
2008-06-16 1:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?

csibona - 2008-06-16 2:39 PM I do not understand what "risk" I would be taking by doing these activities on the same weekend. Are you concerned about overtraining? I think the HRM keeps me in check.

For me it is the risk of injury from running with bad form.

2008-06-16 1:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?

csibona - 2008-06-16 2:39 PM

I do not understand what "risk" I would be taking by doing these activities on the same weekend. Are you concerned about overtraining? I think the HRM keeps me in check.

It's not a "risk" per se.  And many athletes have followed the same schedule as you for years.  It's simply "less than ideal" training if you sacrifice quality or quantity in doing so. 

For example, you may recover fine becuase you have a lighter weekday workout schedule.  But perhaps your training would be more effective with a more consistent training load versus big weekends and long recoveries. 

Of course, logistcially a more balanced schedule may not work for you.  In that case, your 'big weekend' scedule may be the best that you can do given all your other constraints.  But if it is an option, then I'd wager that you can get better quality and/or more volume into your week while still getting adequate recovery.  And that's the point.  Greater training load + adequate recovery = higher fitness level.

2008-06-16 2:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
Maine Rob - 2008-06-16 2:53 PM

csibona - 2008-06-16 2:39 PM I do not understand what "risk" I would be taking by doing these activities on the same weekend. Are you concerned about overtraining? I think the HRM keeps me in check.

For me it is the risk of injury from running with bad form.



x2. Knowing that I am currently pushing my long runs further than I have in the past, I want to run with the best form possible.

2008-06-16 2:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
bryancd - 2008-06-16 12:13 PM

I have always done long bikes on Saturday and long runs on Sunday. For me, the quality of my long runs hasn't suffered and I do believe that I benefit from that protocol. There are two different schools of thought on this, as Jorge and JK have correctly brought up and I think it is very dependent on the individual on how they structure these sessions as well as the oviuos time constraints.


x2 My long runs have not suffered and I enjoy the positive mental "fix" that I experience after my huge wkends. But that's just me. I also take Mondays as SRD. So far this system is working well for me.
Long ride/short brick run Saturday
Long run/ez 30 min spin on Sunday

Sunday evening...REST, eat, rehydrate...Monday = REST


2008-06-16 2:08 PM
in reply to: #1469548

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
That's another good point, Scout. It does provide a perfect opportunity for a full recovery day on Monday, which I have alos grown to love!
2008-06-16 2:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?

 x3 and enjoying that rest  today. But man Monday's go fast


bryancd - 2008-06-16 3:08 PM That's another good point, Scout. It does provide a perfect opportunity for a full recovery day on Monday, which I have alos grown to love!

2008-06-16 2:17 PM
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Elite
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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
I should add that my longest runs aren't as long as most other's as I do "bike sandwhiches" on Sunday's. e.g run 2 hours, bike 1 hour / run 45 mins.  Idea is to get the  similiar  aerobic benefit w/o all the pounding of  the longer run. I'll let you know how it works out  on 7/21!
2008-06-16 2:36 PM
in reply to: #1468873

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Long rides / runs on consecutive days?
There is nor risk per say unless an athletes is indeed doing too much training (20+ hrs) but let me explain it this way: do you taper for big races? Why do we taper? Well, because we want to make sure that after we have stressed our bodies as much as possibly to adapt and become as fit as possible we can be recovered from that and the combination will allows us to achieve peak performance. Well, take the same principle to every day sessions; if you get to perform a given session as rested as possible (or less fatigued) then you will be able to produce better training adaptations.  That’s why most training plans suggest alternate hard/long days with easy days so your body can get to recover from sessions to session and the sum of all will optimize your training gains.

Chronic fatigue accumulates overtime, that’s why at certain weeks during a training cycle we feel spent, tired, lethargic and like our paces are dropping instead of improving because our body is overloaded. Once we back off and recover we grow fitter and faster, and that's the principle behind splitting quality sessions on different days… Again there are times when tough training weekends/cycles and race rehearsals are important, but those occasions are the exception not the rule.

Anyway, for those who currenlty do the long ride/run over the weekend and if your schedule allows you, then try moving the long run mid week for a training cycle/phase and see if you notice any difference or not.

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