General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Swim Hand Entry Rss Feed  
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2008-08-12 7:20 PM

Extreme Veteran
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West Windsor, NJ
Subject: Swim Hand Entry
Okay: Here is the question: What is the "best" way for your hand to enter the water. Is it at the goggle line? or more forward? I have heard both. I generally enter close to the goggle line..but maybe a little forward of that at a nice smooth, almost 40-45 degree angle...bend the elbow a little bit, catch the water, and then recover. I have also heard that you should "reach" ahead more to get maximum pull...but I would think the risks of reaching too far ahead are (1) you can use too much of your shoulder and (2) if you arent careful, you will use a lot of strength to push water towards the bottom versus back..which is useless.

What's the deal?


2008-08-12 7:21 PM
in reply to: #1598820

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Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry

way forward, almost to a full extension.  Pull back, not down, if you are rotating, you will be using your core, not your shoulder.

ETA - i am no coach, just a swimmer



Edited by ChrisM 2008-08-12 7:23 PM
2008-08-12 7:38 PM
in reply to: #1598825

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Coach
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Boston, MA
Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry
ChrisM - 2008-08-12 7:21 PM

way forward, almost to a full extension.  Pull back, not down, if you are rotating, you will be using your core, not your shoulder.

ETA - i am no coach, just a swimmer

x2. TI suggests entering at the google line yet I don't see any fast swimmer (swimmer or triathlete) ever do that.

Edit to add - if you are pulling correctly (like ChrisM posted) you will also feel the effort on your lats not your shoulders



Edited by amiine 2008-08-12 7:39 PM
2008-08-12 7:40 PM
in reply to: #1598820

Extreme Veteran
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100025
West Windsor, NJ
Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry
I am also not convinced there is a right or wrong answer here. Either one probably has advantages and disadvantages. Hopefully some swim coaches can shed some light. Good to hear that the TI bible also states a goggle line entry.
2008-08-12 7:41 PM
in reply to: #1598871

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Master
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Chapel Hill, NC
Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry
amiine - 2008-08-12 8:38 PM

ChrisM - 2008-08-12 7:21 PM

way forward, almost to a full extension. Pull back, not down, if you are rotating, you will be using your core, not your shoulder.

ETA - i am no coach, just a swimmer

x2. TI suggests entering at the google line yet I don't see any fast swimmer (swimmer or triathlete) ever do that.


This is interesting, as I've been following the TI way (and my swimming is just okay, not great). What do you think about the TI "hiding your head" philosophy, i.e., getting your head low in the water such you are aware of a thin film of water is going over the top of your swim cap?
2008-08-12 7:45 PM
in reply to: #1598820

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Champion
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Rochester Hills, Michigan
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Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry

x3.

A couple things I've noticed....1) optimum point is about 1-1.5 ft in front of your head, based on olympic swimmers, 2) entering the water, the olympians seem to put their hands in vertically, then change to horizontally for the catch, and 3) (props to rstocks for this one), treat the entry is a 'mail slot'. Get your hand in, push forward with the glide though the slot. Interesting analogy, but it works.  



2008-08-12 7:47 PM
in reply to: #1598820

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Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry

Cool, Rick, I like #3.....

BTW, when I answered I was watching the 4 x 200 men's heats.  No one entered at the goggle line.

2008-08-12 8:10 PM
in reply to: #1598820

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Elite
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Athens, Georgia
Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry
I feel like when I enter at goggle line I am not staying as long in the water and feel bunched up. It helps me to extend more like Chris said to do.
2008-08-12 8:15 PM
in reply to: #1598820

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Champion
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Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry

Like Chris, Jorge and Rick said, extend the arm and enter well past the goggle line.  No use pushing against the direction of travel any longer than you have to.

Shane

2008-08-12 8:21 PM
in reply to: #1598892

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Pro
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Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry
rkreuser - 2008-08-12 7:45 PM

x3.

A couple things I've noticed....1) optimum point is about 1-1.5 ft in front of your head, based on olympic swimmers, 2) entering the water, the olympians seem to put their hands in vertically, then change to horizontally for the catch, and 3) (props to rstocks for this one), treat the entry is a 'mail slot'. Get your hand in, push forward with the glide though the slot. Interesting analogy, but it works.


Dude when I was swimming a few weeks ago I had the sensation of sliding my hand under my pillow - I like that mail slot analogy but a pillowcase and sheets mimics the medium a little more specifically. Glad to know I was sort of onto something!
2008-08-12 8:23 PM
in reply to: #1598820

Extreme Veteran
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West Windsor, NJ
Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry
I like the mail slot entry analogy.

Maybe the "trick" is to extend a little beyond the goggle line (like 6-12"), but with a flatter angle (i.e., the mail slot)? Such that you arent pushing water anywhere, but setting yourself up for a good "catch"?

Although its interesting to watch the olympians for form...I am hesitant to copy them for the reason that (1) its not OWS, (2) its all speed. Granted..they are probably showing you the "fastest" stroke..but is that necessarily the best for a longer OWS when you have a bike and a run ahead of you? For example...look at their legs...they are kicking like no tomorrow...we don't kick that much for a reason.

I don't know...just sayin'


2008-08-12 8:29 PM
in reply to: #1598820

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Master
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Canandaigua
Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry

As far forward as you can with elbow almost straight.  I like to have my thumb and index finger enter the same.  Scoop the water and pull back towards feet, hand along mid line, elbow bent at 90 degrees.  Push water down straightening arm to side.  -Lots of internal rotation of shoulder.-   You should feel a wave of water travel down your leg.  Return with you hands close to water and elbow up.  That the way I do it.  If you hand isn't moving down your body (ie down to bottom or to side) your just shoving yourself up or to the side.  I turn my head rather then my body to breath.  Yes I do get some rotation but try to stay close to flat as possible. 

Have at it TI guys. 

2008-08-12 8:38 PM
in reply to: #1598820

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Master
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Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry
Just adding one lesson learned the hard way: don't cross your arm in front of your body. I did some rotator cuff damage (while taking swimming lessons no less) by crossing my arm all the way to the opposite side.
2008-08-12 8:50 PM
in reply to: #1599031

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Champion
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Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry

JohnAgs3 - 2008-08-12 10:23 PM

I like the mail slot entry analogy. Maybe the "trick" is to extend a little beyond the goggle line (like 6-12", but with a flatter angle (i.e., the mail slot)? Such that you arent pushing water anywhere, but setting yourself up for a good "catch"? Although its interesting to watch the olympians for form...I am hesitant to copy them for the reason that (1) its not OWS, (2) its all speed. Granted..they are probably showing you the "fastest" stroke..but is that necessarily the best for a longer OWS when you have a bike and a run ahead of you? For example...look at their legs...they are kicking like no tomorrow...we don't kick that much for a reason. I don't know...just sayin'

Plenty of good distance swimming coming up; watch the 1500m and 10km OW events.  I'll wager you'll see very few (if any) athletes swimming without a good extension before entry.  You will however see much less kicking

Shane

2008-08-12 8:52 PM
in reply to: #1598820

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Champion
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Rochester Hills, Michigan
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Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry
TI will call the hand entry the 'weightless hand'. As you extend, you shouldn't feel like your hand is slowing you down or anything...it should be gliding toward the end of the pool, weightless. Good hydrodynamics, because if you can feel it, you're pushing water somehow....slowing you down.
2008-08-12 9:03 PM
in reply to: #1598820

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2008-08-13 12:21 PM
in reply to: #1598820

Regular
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100
Southern, Maine
Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry
Watch Micheal Phelps
2008-08-13 12:44 PM
in reply to: #1598820

Regular
122
100
Southern, Maine
Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry

 

This is an underwater video of the US Mens 4 x 100 relay.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/player.html?assetid=0812_hd_mul_au_ce493&channelcode=sportsw



Edited by Maine 2008-08-13 12:45 PM
2008-08-13 1:27 PM
in reply to: #1598820

Giver
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Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry

When you enter your hand close to your head, you're doing two counter-productive things:

  1. You're pushing your hand forward through a dense medium--water. If you enter closer to full extension, you're pushing your hand forward through air...much less dense.
  2. And, by extension (uggh...worst pun ever), you're pushing forward through the water. There's a reason breaststroke is such a comparatively slow stroke--your hands recover underwater. So, why would you want to add resistance to a fast stroke?

 

2008-08-13 1:41 PM
in reply to: #1600835

Veteran
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Syracuse, NY
Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry
run4yrlif - 2008-08-13 1:27 PM
And, by extension (uggh...worst pun ever), you're pushing forward through the water. There's a reason breaststroke is such a comparatively slow stroke--your hands recover underwater. So, why would you want to add resistance to a fast stroke?


As a former breaststroker, I was a proponent of above-the-water hand recovery. I was pretty fast, too. I'm interested to watch the Olympics now and see if anyone there does it too...
2008-08-13 1:44 PM
in reply to: #1600835

Cycling Guru
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Fulton, MD
Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry
run4yrlif - 2008-08-13 2:27 PM

When you enter your hand close to your head, you're doing two counter-productive things:

  1. You're pushing your hand forward through a dense medium--water. If you enter closer to full extension, you're pushing your hand forward through air...much less dense.
  2. And, by extension (uggh...worst pun ever), you're pushing forward through the water. There's a reason breaststroke is such a comparatively slow stroke--your hands recover underwater. So, why would you want to add resistance to a fast stroke?

 

^

What he (and others) said ...... why would you want to push through the water only to pull back?  Seems counterproductive to me.  No matter how "effortless" you can try to be entering at the head and pushing forward, you would still be fighting the momentum of your body and the resistance of the water.

Unless your arm is pulling through the water I would think you would want it having the least resistance possible, which would be the air.



2008-08-13 1:44 PM
in reply to: #1600835

Mountain View, CA
Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry
run4yrlif - 2008-08-13 11:27 AM

When you enter your hand close to your head, you're doing two counter-productive things:

  1. You're pushing your hand forward through a dense medium--water. If you enter closer to full extension, you're pushing your hand forward through air...much less dense.
  2. And, by extension (uggh...worst pun ever), you're pushing forward through the water. There's a reason breaststroke is such a comparatively slow stroke--your hands recover underwater. So, why would you want to add resistance to a fast stroke?

 



Breaststroke is also slowed by the leg recovery, but yes, pushing your hand through the water (even gliding, as through a mail slot) it necessarily encounters more resistance than it does in the air. I recently started focusing on having my hands enter the water farther out from my head, and I already feel the difference.

A good drill for practicing this and encouraging good recovery form in general is fingertip drag: on every stroke, drag your fingertips through the water, keeping your elbow high and your fingers close to your body (as if you were zipping up a zipper on the side of your body). Keep dragging your fingertips until your arm is just about fully extended, then let the hand enter the water and complete the stroke.
2008-08-13 2:22 PM
in reply to: #1598820

Cycling Guru
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Fulton, MD
Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry

Something else to add in that my swim coach said is that if you are seeing bubbles from your hand entering, then it is not going in right ........ slip it in, don't slap it in.

(Get your minds out of the gutter .......)

2008-08-13 2:38 PM
in reply to: #1598820

Expert
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Michiana
Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry

Regardless of entry point, the hand should extend through torso rotation (pushing shoulder and rest of arm forward as you rotate).  This gets you fully extended and gliding efficiently.  The pull does not occur at this point, rather as you glide forward your forward hand drops as you keep your elbow high.  Don't push the water down (wasted energy).  Glide forward then use lats to push the water down your side and past your hips.  The catch-up drill accentuates this glide and pull motion.  Picture yourself swimming through an 18-inch diameter tube - streamlined and quiet.

2008-08-13 2:38 PM
in reply to: #1598880

Master
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Reston, VA
Subject: RE: Swim Hand Entry
keyone - 2008-08-12 8:41 PM

amiine - 2008-08-12 8:38 PM

ChrisM - 2008-08-12 7:21 PM

way forward, almost to a full extension. Pull back, not down, if you are rotating, you will be using your core, not your shoulder.

ETA - i am no coach, just a swimmer

x2. TI suggests entering at the google line yet I don't see any fast swimmer (swimmer or triathlete) ever do that.


This is interesting, as I've been following the TI way (and my swimming is just okay, not great). What do you think about the TI "hiding your head" philosophy, i.e., getting your head low in the water such you are aware of a thin film of water is going over the top of your swim cap?


Head position really varies and should be what you are comfortable/effecient with. That being said, many fast swimmers are somewhere in the middle on head position - not looking straight down, not looking directly forward.

Edited by docswim24 2008-08-13 2:39 PM
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