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2008-12-02 11:19 AM

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Subject: What Is Base Building Training?

Each year around this time it is when we are all planning our races and training for the following year and we see many posts inquiring about 'Base' building training. Early on the year I did some research to find out what this mysterious "concept" was and I wrote an article for my blog. I dig around to figure what this meant and why it means different things depends who you ask. Also based on physiology literature I suggested how coined terms such as AeT are incorrect at best and misleading/confusing at worst.

I read a post at ST yesterday and it reminded me about the article so dig it out and updated it to keep the info contained and my thoughts about it current.

Below is a portion:

What exactly is base training? I’ve read about it at training magazines/books, endurance websites, I’ve heard coaches refer to it in training plans and even I’ve used it in different occasions in the context to describe a training period, yet to be honest I am not entirely sure what it does specifically mean. Does it refer to a particular training cycle? Does it refer to a particular training zone? Does it refer to a particular training approach? I did some research to try to find out what the specific definition is and understand what are talking about when using the term.

From different websites, training books and articles I found out that the concept has many definitions and it can represent something different to many coaches. Some people refer to it as a period to develop and improve one’s body ability to burn stored fat for fuel and they recommend limiting our training intensity to a specific training zone. They also advice using specific methods to determine that limit (like the Mafettone or MAF formula) (1). Others refer to it as a training period to mainly focus on developing our aerobic energy system via low intensity training. Others refer to it as a training period ideal to train endurance through the Aerobic Threshold aka as AeT. And yet others refer to it as the first training cycle with a simple training load to better prepare the athlete to handle greater training loads down the road. Although high intensity sessions are not avoided, they are limited to certain extent.
You can read the whole thing here

Anyway, please feel free to share your experiences, questions or thoughts; maybe together we can once and for all put an end to this ‘base building’ nonsense



2008-12-02 12:30 PM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?

I know some runners -- some faster than I ever was or will be -- who swear by it.

Me? Not so much.  I do think that periodization is important, that there is a time during the training season for a higher proprtion of high-intensity training, and a time for less.  But is there an extended time when you should never get out of zone 1-2?  I agree with you -- I don't see any reason to think that there is.

To be clear:  I don't disagree with many of the stated aims of 'base building' -- e.g., improving metabolism, building resistance to injury, and so on.  (As you suggest, not everybody states the same aims...)  I just don't see why one should think that keeping absolutely all of my training in a given zone is the way to achieve these things.

For lack of a better term, I do tend to refer to the first part of my own periodized plan as 'base training', but even during this time, I do mix up the paces, including some fairly fast (for me) running.  I do not tend to do long tempo runs or really hard long intervals, but neither do I run everything in Z1-2.  (I don't do those harder workouts because I'm not ready for them yet, not because they violate some precept of 'base training'.)  The main thing that I'm 'building' during this time is volume.

That's all just about running.  I'm a total ignoramous about triathlon training -- still experimenting with that.

 

2008-12-03 7:51 AM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?
mdickson68 - 2008-12-02 12:30 PM

I know some runners -- some faster than I ever was or will be -- who swear by it.

Me? Not so much.  I do think that periodization is important, that there is a time during the training season for a higher proprtion of high-intensity training, and a time for less.  But is there an extended time when you should never get out of zone 1-2?  I agree with you -- I don't see any reason to think that there is.

To be clear:  I don't disagree with many of the stated aims of 'base building' -- e.g., improving metabolism, building resistance to injury, and so on.  (As you suggest, not everybody states the same aims... I just don't see why one should think that keeping absolutely all of my training in a given zone is the way to achieve these things.

For lack of a better term, I do tend to refer to the first part of my own periodized plan as 'base training', but even during this time, I do mix up the paces, including some fairly fast (for me) running.  I do not tend to do long tempo runs or really hard long intervals, but neither do I run everything in Z1-2.  (I don't do those harder workouts because I'm not ready for them yet, not because they violate some precept of 'base training'.)  The main thing that I'm 'building' during this time is volume.

That's all just about running.  I'm a total ignoramous about triathlon training -- still experimenting with that.

That's one of the reasons I wrote that piece. I've been able to ask some of the proponents of this approach for general training and I haven't get a response that makes sense. I mean as presented on the article physiologically speaking it is inaccurate to state that limiting our training at lower intensities will maximize something like fat oxidation.

The main point is that while there are valid points as to why it would be smart to limit training load specifically intensity to some athletes (i.e. untrained individuals) the reasons given as to why this should be are incorrect.

2008-12-03 9:54 AM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?

JorgeM - 2008-12-02 10:19 AM  And yet others refer to it as the first training cycle with a simple training load to better prepare the athlete to handle greater training loads down the road. Although high intensity sessions are not avoided, they are limited to certain extent.

That is what I refer to as base training. Building up volume through mostly easy paces, but not entirely avoiding intensity. A mixture of 90% easy/10% intensity would be sufficient for most people to build base. From what I've seen in many people's logs is a huge lack of sufficient volume to support any kind of intensity. It almost seems as if many people avoid building base volume like the plague, but then want to jump right in with speedwork. It may be that people avoid building volume because they push too hard in all their workouts instead of going easy for most, with an occasional hard effort thrown in.

This time of year, when many people are not actively racing, is a great time to work on base building through adding easy volume. Many would benefit greatly by building their running to a MINIMUM of 80-100 miles/month, and the bike to a minimum of 200-250. That would probably be only a quarter of what elites athletes do.

I left swimming out because the training is much different than biking or running.

2008-12-03 10:04 AM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?
Then there are some of us who suck at running, are in the first year of running after a long stint on the couch and are using this whole first year as LSD time.

I have two speeds, sprint and longer-than-sprint distance running

Some of y'all can actually tell a difference between your 5K and 10K speeds. Maybe next year I'll have two different speeds for those.

Since I've taken this attitude on, I've ceased having shin splints, runner's knee and the whole host of other minor injuries that made my first couple months trying to get back into shape so fun.
2008-12-03 10:09 AM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?

Gordo can comment on this further if he wants, but I like Gordos take on base.. the problem I see is people expect the world to change in a matter of weeks or months instead of years

from his blog http://www.gordoworld.com/gblog/

Q -- What do you consider to be necessary in a core marathon week for a runner targeting a flat course? ( I mean during a 13 week build up following a prep stage of 13 weeks of base training)

A -- Until you are in the top 5% of your race category, you will likely find that your ratio of base-to-build should be more like 150:6 -- six weeks of build for every 150 weeks of base.  Now that advice won't sell many magazines but I spent over five years doing nothing but base training.  Base training doesn't mean going slow all the time -- it means a focus on building endurance, sport specific strength and using a little bit of tempo/mod-hard in the week.  

I still did races but I never tried to "peak" for events -- I simply freshened up a bit went out, raced and kept on training the next week.  I raced distances that were UNDER my training distances and saved the long "events" for fun runs/hikes/climbs/adventures in training.

I am very glad that I did this.  For a new athlete, a 10K or a half marathon gives you an ample dose of "race" stimulus.  It's also a lot less painful to learn the lessons from going out to hard (we all do it!).  As an example, I tried to run an Ultramaraton in the mid-90s // had a great first 10K... was DONE by 70K.

As for training, I laid that out in my original post.  Running success does not require a sophisticated program -- what is essential is a sensible program, done daily, for seven to ten years.  My 2:46 happened more than a decade after I started running.  The body changes slowly -- when we rush the body, we get hurt.  If you are hurt then you can't run.  If you can't run then you won't improve.

 



2008-12-03 10:21 AM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?

I'm the opposite, I don't like speed work, so I cling to this idea of slowing down to get faster. It did seem to work my first year, I surprised the heck out of myself in a 5 mile race. The next year I was not consistent and did not maintain my base.

So much of the differences seem small to me. I think of base building as building the average amount of volume I can handle on a regular basis. Jorge, I haven't checked your logs, but I imagine you can handle 10-15 hours a week most of the time. I can handle 3-5 hours per week on a regular basis. Your base is much bigger than mine because you've built it by being consitent over time.

I believe that I will be faster at the end of a period of base building than I was when I started, assuming a shorter distance I could already complete. The question is, could I build my base (increase my weekly volume) significantly if I was doing many of my workouts above LT? I don't think I could.

So this season, my goal is to be consistent and build a solid base. My base won't be huge, because I have limited time that I'm willing to committ and I'm not looking to an IM anytime soon. Once I have a bigger base, settling into that volume or even a little less, I can begin to add more intensity.

2008-12-03 10:30 AM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?
slake707 - 2008-12-03 10:09 AM

Gordo can comment on this further if he wants

hopefully he jumps on the discussion as I would like to learn his reasoning behind it besides anecdotal evidence.

2008-12-03 11:18 AM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?

DanielG - well yes, as I posted above and on the article there are valid reasons to limit training intensity in particular for untrained athletes, the point I am trying to make is that: 1) there is no concept defined as base building and 2) general phase training will be defined based on the athletes needs (weaknesses), goals (race distance) and current fitness level.

Slake707 –To generalize and state that limiting training load is the way to go for everyone or claim that it is the only way to improve fat oxidation is misleading and inaccurate. Athletes can successfully develop their fitness and avoid injuries without limiting their training intensity to certain range. It is about managing the total load and intensity is just part of the equation

DMarkSwan – You can successfully work to adapt your body to handle greater raining loads (particular greater dose of intensity) during the general phase.  You don’t need to limit all your sessions to one particular training intensity; you can manage your load and add gradually bouts of intensity throughout your annual plan. The bulk of your training sessions will remain low on intensity but that doesn’t mean you should avoid greater intensities, in particular when training at one’s lactate threshold is the single most important physiological performance determinant for endurance athletes.

2008-12-03 12:19 PM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?
JorgeM - 2008-12-03 12:18 PM

Slake707 –To generalize and state that limiting training load is the way to go for everyone or claim that it is the only way to improve fat oxidation is misleading and inaccurate. Athletes can successfully develop their fitness and avoid injuries without limiting their training intensity to certain range. It is about managing the total load and intensity is just part of the equation



Do I think it is the only way to go - No
Do i think it is the best way to go - No
Do I think it is a safe way to go - Yes

I don't think it is the only way by any means, but looking at people on this site and other places that are just starting to run.. they go too fast, and not often enough... 8 times out of 10 when someone posts a question that they are not getting any faster with their running and you look at their logs they are doing 10mpw or less with maybe 2-3 runs.. my point is when first starting out, focus first on getting consistency before worrying about other details... is it the best way? maybe not.. but it is simple.. a coach can help (or hurt in other cases when they ramped up the volume and intensity quickly and the person got injured) .. but for couch potato to 8 minute minute mile 5k, consistency to me is important, but not necessarily the only thing.. I agree it is part of the equation.. but in a geometric sequence it makes up the 1/2 and the 1/4 in my world


Edited by slake707 2008-12-03 12:22 PM
2008-12-03 12:22 PM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?
I think base building is critical for endurance athletes. Science can probably prove either side of the argument, so I usually look to who applies any principal and their results rather than some test derived in a classroom. If you look at the training of endurance athletes, it’s pretty easy to see that the majority of those who are successful implement a base building phase. Actually, I don’t know any examples of someone who doesn’t have a base phase in their training schedule but I’m sure they’re out there. Here are some of my thoughts on why I think the base is not just important, but the most important phase of a training program. In no particular order..

Aerobic economy – 99.9% of our racing is done aerobically. Lance Armstrong’s coach Chris Carmichael has said, "Endurance cycling" means any event lasting longer than one minute. Even the kilometer time trial on the track is an endurance event because, although much of the early power is produced anaerobically, the event is won or lost in the last eight seconds as competitors with the best aerobic system slow down less.” Just as the best way to be a better sprinter is to sprint, the best way to improve your aerobic economy/ability is to train aerobically. We as endurance athletes need to increase aerobically produced power. This means burning calories like fat with oxygen and no lactic acid as a by product. The more you train aerobically the greater the recruitment of slowtwitch muscles, the more those muscles burn aerobically, the faster you get at the same effort level and the more efficient you become in terms of caloric needs. Mark Allen, who was trained by Maffetone, began his career running a mile aerobically at over 7min per mile. Toward the peak of his career he could run a mile at 5.25 without ever going anaerobic. Mike Pigg, one our sports all time greats, once stayed in his base phase of training until September because of the improvements he was making.

Stress acclimation – This applies slightly more to the age-grouper and newer athlete than a seasoned vet, but the base phase is the time to slowly increase the volume and therefore stress levels on the body so that it can adapt and later be able to do high intensity with out becoming overstressed (i.e. injury and or overtraining). Bloodflow really determines the rate of how fast different body parts adapt. Your heart and lungs receive a great deal of blood so the adaptation to stress is relatively quick. Muscles adapt a little slower but still adapt in a timely manner. The limiters are the tendons and ligaments. They receive very little blood flow, so when they are stressed, it can take a while for them to adapt. They’re also the most important (IMO) to get built up for the season because when you overdo it and tendons or ligaments get injured, it takes forever for them to heal. So a long and consistent base phase to build up the tendons/ligaments is important in order to have an injury free season.

Muscle memory - This applies to all sports but more specifically to swimming. Repetition helps the nervous system “remember” specific movements so that those movements require little thought to repeat over time. The base phase offers a time to hone in technique and break bad habits. If you are always adding intensity in your workouts then your body will revert back to previous habits or “memories” in order to accomplish a performance goal that you have set for the day. If you remove the intensity you are able to focus exclusively on the desired technique until it becomes the default habit. This is why stroke drills are never done at a high intensity. Once the season kicks in, you should be able to apply the new and better technique to the high intensity workouts without reverting back when you get fatigued.

At the end of the day, training is more of an art than it is a science. For every training related topic, you can find examples on both sides of an argument. Like I stated in the beginning, I look at how the best of the best train, and what themes are recurring among that group. The other side to this coin is enjoyment. Base can be very boring, so if some speed work keeps you interested and motivated, then go out and do it. The need to enjoy the journey far outweighs the need to follow a strict schedule because some book/article/person told you to.

My 2 cents..



2008-12-03 12:29 PM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?
JorgeM - 2008-12-03 12:18 PM

It is about managing the total load and intensity is just part of the equation



What would you say is a good equation to becoming a better runner? For me, I have being going under the assumption that I will get up to 40 mpw for consistent  year or more and then start to worry about details to get faster.. probably not the most efficient way, but I am of the belief that hard work has a payoff. I would love to hear your insight from the perspective of someone who studies the science for a living vs a hobby..

as a side question related to "building base" and HR training.. and long slow runs considered Z1 or Z2? should you really only do Z1 runs for recovery with LSD runs being Z2?
2008-12-03 12:41 PM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?
Base for me is specific soley to me. Forget HR or RPE for a moment, in my training its training at an intensity equal to that which I would race an Ironman. For me, "base" work is work done at a relatively high intensity when compared to what others would do. I never trian a Zone 1 or low to mid Zone 2, I often think the misconception of base training gives too many the opportunity to go too slow, assuming they already are proficient athletes, mind you. I also agree that varying intensity in specific workouts during this time is crucial, so tempo and interval work still come into play, but maybe with out the frequency or intensity I might do during a build period towards an event.
2008-12-03 12:43 PM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?
JorgeM - 2008-12-03 12:18 PM

DMarkSwan – You can successfully work to adapt your body to handle greater raining loads (particular greater dose of intensity) during the general phase.  You don’t need to limit all your sessions to one particular training intensity; you can manage your load and add gradually bouts of intensity throughout your annual plan. The bulk of your training sessions will remain low on intensity but that doesn’t mean you should avoid greater intensities, in particular when training at one’s lactate threshold is the single most important physiological performance determinant for endurance athletes.

I can agree with that. I think many people talk in absolutes, even though most of the time absolutes don't make sense. I do plan to add some intensity (a few workouts where I reach or cross LT), but my focus will be on increasing duration. This week only one workout was intended to get my HR over my LT. Through the 3 four week cycles that I consider my base training, I'll get up to crossing my LT during 3 workouts per week. I only do 6, so that's half. In the remaining 6 weeks I'll get down to just one per week (Long ride), not crossing LT, although I'll try to reach it.

I have a clear understanding of what I consider base even though I can't pinpoint what my base is. (i.e. I can't say, "My base is 3.5 hours per week" I treat periodization as a way of determining my focus for a given week.

For all the beginners out there, the specific steps to my plan are just made up. I feel good and have read about Base and Build periods overall, but the specific mix of workouts is made up and untested. In the past most of my workouts have been low intensity and unplanned intensity was just thrown in. I'm trying to be methodical in training, so when I see my results I can repeat or change my training plan.

2008-12-03 12:59 PM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?

I think one thing to keep in mind in this discussion -- and Jorge said it in the original post but maybe it is getting lost -- is that the term 'base training' is widely used.  (I use it myself, and I agree pretty much with Jorge.)

So it might not be helpful to say 'I (or some elite athlete, or whoever) do base training, and it works'.  First, there is the obvious problem that such facts are very difficult to interpret (for example, would you, or the elite athlete in question, have been even better had you trained differently? -- that's the problem with anecdotal evidence).  Second, what you call 'base training' might not fit the category that is under question here.  (For example, even the quotation from Gordo's web site isn't unambiguously supporting the 'never train outside of Z1-2' view, to wit:  "Base training doesn't mean going slow all the time".

Anyway, I understood Jorge's original complaint to be against the view that improving metabolism, or building resistance to injury, or whatever, is best achieved by limiting one's training to Z1-2. 

Finally, we should acknowledge that that claim is not the same as 'training in Z1-2 improves these things'.  I don't think anybody is disputing that claim.  In order for the claim in question to be true, it must be true that the goal of improving metabolism, etc., is somehow thwarted by occasionally training outside of Z1-2.  It's hard for me to see how that is going to happen, in an athlete who is ready for more intense training.

Sorry if I'm repeating the obvious -- I just started to get the sense that maybe some of these points were getting lost.

 

2008-12-03 1:05 PM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?
Base is like pornography, I know it when I see it!


2008-12-03 1:06 PM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?

tjfry - 2008-12-03 12:22 PM I think base building is critical for endurance athletes. Science can probably prove either side of the argument, so I usually look to who applies any principal and their results rather than some test derived in a classroom. If you look at the training of endurance athletes, it’s pretty easy to see that the majority of those who are successful implement a base building phase. Actually, I don’t know any examples of someone who doesn’t have a base phase in their training schedule but I’m sure they’re out there. Here are some of my thoughts on why I think the base is not just important, but the most important phase of a training program. In no particular order

Before moving forward, what is this base building that you stated above? Do you mean limiting your training during the general phase exclusively at lower intensities?

tjfry - 2008-12-03 12:22 PM Aerobic economy – 99.9% of our racing is done aerobically. Lance Armstrong’s coach Chris Carmichael has said, "Endurance cycling" means any event lasting longer than one minute. Even the kilometer time trial on the track is an endurance event because, although much of the early power is produced anaerobically, the event is won or lost in the last eight seconds as competitors with the best aerobic system slow down less.”

what is this aerobic economic you speak of (what is the definition)? Also Chris should know that most anaerobic effort (relying exclusively on the anaerobic system) last around 2 min or a bit longer for pro athletes. Anyway, yes all tri distances are aerobic efforts which lends strength to the argument made on the article I posted that training at different intensities will develop your endurance, whether riding easy pace or z1 or riding intervals at V02Max or z5, it is ALL aerobic.

tjfry - 2008-12-03 12:22 PM Mark Allen, who was trained by Maffetone, began his career running a mile aerobically at over 7min per mile. Toward the peak of his career he could run a mile at 5.25 without ever going anaerobic. Mike Pigg, one our sports all time greats, once stayed in his base phase of training until September because of the improvements he was making.

It is documented how the training of Kenyans elite distance runners include training at different intensities from very easy runs to VO2 max sets.


tjfry - 2008-12-03 12:22 PM Stress acclimation – This applies slightly more to the age-grouper and newer athlete than a seasoned vet, but the base phase is the time to slowly increase the volume and therefore stress levels on the body so that it can adapt and later be able to do high intensity with out becoming overstressed (i.e. injury and or overtraining). Bloodflow really determines the rate of how fast different body parts adapt. Your heart and lungs receive a great deal of blood so the adaptation to stress is relatively quick. Muscles adapt a little slower but still adapt in a timely manner. The limiters are the tendons and ligaments. They receive very little blood flow, so when they are stressed, it can take a while for them to adapt. They’re also the most important (IMO) to get built up for the season because when you overdo it and tendons or ligaments get injured, it takes forever for them to heal. So a long and consistent base phase to build up the tendons/ligaments is important in order to have an injury free season.

well yes but most training injuries are related to training load, doing too much too fast and not specifically to training intensity. Daniels suggest on his running formula a gradual progression in training yet he includes bouts of intensity (VO2 max or Threshold pace runs) since the general phase and as the athlete adapts (both cardiovascular and muscular/soft tissue) the duration of this intensity increases


tjfry - 2008-12-03 12:22 PM Muscle memory - This applies to all sports but more specifically to swimming. Repetition helps the nervous system “remember” specific movements so that those movements require little thought to repeat over time. The base phase offers a time to hone in technique and break bad habits. If you are always adding intensity in your workouts then your body will revert back to previous habits or “memories” in order to accomplish a performance goal that you have set for the day. If you remove the intensity you are able to focus exclusively on the desired technique until it becomes the default habit. This is why stroke drills are never done at a high intensity. Once the season kicks in, you should be able to apply the new and better technique to the high intensity workouts without reverting back when you get fatigued. At the end of the day, training is more of an art than it is a science. For every training related topic, you can find examples on both sides of an argument.

Technique is important (swimming more than anything) but there is no reason to relegate it to low intensity exclusively. The concept specificity suggest that we become very good at what we do over and over. In terms of endurance the more be reproduce race conditions in training the better prepare will be for the main event. I don’t see why limiting training intensity will halt improvements in technique.

tjfry - 2008-12-03 12:22 PM Like I stated in the beginning, I look at how the best of the best train, and what themes are recurring among that group. The other side to this coin is enjoyment. Base can be very boring, so if some speed work keeps you interested and motivated, then go out and do it. The need to enjoy the journey far outweighs the need to follow a strict schedule because some book/article/person told you to. My 2 cents..

That’s all fine and dandy but if you are going to mimic what the best do you should take a look at their total training load. It is not the same logging 30+ hrs of training than 10 hrs avg most AGers would do. The strain imposed on the body is not the same plain and simple so to suggest because elites can log a great volume at lower intensities is the best approach for all Agers is shortsighted. Training at different intensities in particular at your lactate threshold is very important. This doesn’t mean doing all your training at this intensity, it means adding some sessions which includes bouts at this pace/power. Ignoring it all together delays the training adaptations and athlete can make.

So if physiologically speaking: improving our pace/power at lactate threshold is the single most important physiological performance determinant for endurance athletes why then do you think is in general is a good idea to avoid it all together during the general phase

2008-12-03 1:12 PM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?

These threads make my head hurt.  Smile

Base is a foundation upon which you build upon.  For me, all the training I have done through today is my base.  The training I will do in the future will hopefully build upon that base.  In order to do that I have to consider my current fitness level (i.e., my base), the time I have available to train, the recovery I need to maintain consistency within that available time and my goals (e.g., do I have a race that I need to "specifically" prepare for?).  I can build base with a mix of volume and intensity. 

As Jorge as stated, it''s the training load I need to manipulate.  Of course, too much intensity and I'll bump up against a limiting parameter (e.g., ability to recover while maintaining consistency).  But too little and I can also bump up against one (e.g. not enough available time to reach my needed load).

Z1, Z2, blah, blah, blah.  Those are workout details that fall out of all the above considerations, not a definition of base training.  Not in my world anyway.

2008-12-03 1:17 PM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?

slake707 - 2008-12-03 12:29 PM
What would you say is a good equation to becoming a better runner? For me, I have being going under the assumption that I will get up to 40 mpw for consistent  year or more and then start to worry about details to get faster.. probably not the most efficient way, but I am of the belief that hard work has a payoff. I would love to hear your insight from the perspective of someone who studies the science for a living vs a hobby..

as a side question related to "building base" and HR training.. and long slow runs considered Z1 or Z2? should you really only do Z1 runs for recovery with LSD runs being Z2?

The best equation would be determined based on your particular needs. For some it might require a bigger does of intensity for others a bigger dose of volume and for untrained athletes any load will help. Remember that training load = volume (duration & frequency) + intensity.

I also believe in doing the work to become better (I don’t believe in shortcuts); my whole point with this thread (as Michael posted above) is that the use of this “base building” concept seems to be nothing but a coined term that means something different depending who you ask and that produces confusion among coaches and athletes. And that there is no real reason (physiologically) to avoid certain intensities during the general phase.  In your particular case, by managing your load I mean that will work to increase your running to 40mpw and yes doing the bulk of your sessions nice and easy will be smart, but that doesn’t mean you can't add some intensity to help you get fitter in a shorter period of time without risks of injuries.

2008-12-03 1:22 PM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?
JohnnyKay - 2008-12-03 1:12 PM

These threads make my head hurt.  Smile

Base is a foundation upon which you build upon.  For me, all the training I have done through today is my base.  The training I will do in the future will hopefully build upon that base.  In order to do that I have to consider my current fitness level (i.e., my base), the time I have available to train, the recovery I need to maintain consistency within that available time and my goals (e.g., do I have a race that I need to "specifically" prepare for?).  I can build base with a mix of volume and intensity. 

As Jorge as stated, it''s the training load I need to manipulate.  Of course, too much intensity and I'll bump up against a limiting parameter (e.g., ability to recover while maintaining consistency).  But too little and I can also bump up against one (e.g. not enough available time to reach my needed load).

Z1, Z2, blah, blah, blah.  Those are workout details that fall out of all the above considerations, not a definition of base training.  Not in my world anyway.



+1 ^^^^
2008-12-03 2:26 PM
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2008-12-03 2:34 PM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?
JorgeM - 2008-12-03 1:06 PM

Before moving forward, what is this base building that you stated above? Do you mean limiting your training during the general phase exclusively at lower intensities?



You got it. The Maffetone/Mark Allen approach.



what is this aerobic economic you speak of (what is the definition)? Also Chris should know that most anaerobic effort (relying exclusively on the anaerobic system) last around 2 min or a bit longer for pro athletes. Anyway, yes all tri distances are aerobic efforts which lends strength to the argument made on the article I posted that training at different intensities will develop your endurance, whether riding easy pace or z1 or riding intervals at V02Max or z5, it is ALL aerobic.



Zone 5 is Aerobic? Hmmmm… Guess we’re gonna have to agree to disagree.


It is documented how the training of Kenyans elite distance runners include training at different intensities from very easy runs to VO2 max sets.



I don't doubt it.

well yes but most training injuries are related to training load, doing too much too fast and not specifically to training intensity. Daniels suggest on his running formula a gradual progression in training yet he includes bouts of intensity (VO2 max or Threshold pace runs) since the general phase and as the athlete adapts (both cardiovascular and muscular/soft tissue) the duration of this intensity increases



As I mentioned in my post, this is more of an art. We can find examples of anything that backs our theories. Here is what I do know for a fact: I personally never got tendon/ligament/joint injuries doing aerobic basework(at any volume). Every injury I have ever had (and there are a lot!) were because of intensity.

Technique is important (swimming more than anything) but there is no reason to relegate it to low intensity exclusively. The concept specificity suggest that we become very good at what we do over and over. In terms of endurance the more be reproduce race conditions in training the better prepare will be for the main event. I don’t see why limiting training intensity will halt improvements in technique.



Fatigue causes you to revert back to poor habits and negating the habit you were trying to teach the muscles b/c they become too tired to perform correctly. How crisp is your running form at the end of a race? Not nearly as good as the beginning…

That’s all fine and dandy but if you are going to mimic what the best do you should take a look at their total training load. It is not the same logging 30+ hrs of training than 10 hrs avg most AGers would do. The strain imposed on the body is not the same plain and simple so to suggest because elites can log a great volume at lower intensities is the best approach for all Agers is shortsighted. Training at different intensities in particular at your lactate threshold is very important. This doesn’t mean doing all your training at this intensity, it means adding some sessions which includes bouts at this pace/power. Ignoring it all together delays the training adaptations and athlete can make.




As an age grouper, I trained entirely aerobic (below anaerobic threshold), modest volume, not a drop of intensity. I qualified for Hawaii.

Most people where I live mix in lots of different intensities all year long. Is it wrong? Nope. Some people believe in training that way. It also keeps it interesting. Would I train that way. Nope. But that’s my bias. I swam D1 in college, trained and tested at the Olympic Training Center as a triathlete and was advised by Maffetone, National Team and Olympic coaches and that’s what they taught me. So I guess I’m stuck in my ways.


So if physiologically speaking: improving our pace/power at lactate threshold is the single most important physiological performance determinant for endurance athletes why then do you think is in general is a good idea to avoid it all together during the general phase




Never mentioned lactate threshold.

Look, there are tons of ways to train, and all are valid. But its just as easy for me to question the vailidity of anything except base work as it is for someone to question the vailidity of base work itself. I all depends on what you like in your training soup.

Edited by tjfry 2008-12-03 2:38 PM
2008-12-03 3:28 PM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?
mdickson68 - 2008-12-02 12:30 PM

I know some runners -- some faster than I ever was or will be -- who swear by it.

Me? Not so much.  I do think that periodization is important, that there is a time during the training season for a higher proprtion of high-intensity training, and a time for less. 

 But is there an extended time when you should never get out of zone 1-2?

  I agree with you -- I don't see any reason to think that there is.

To be clear:  I don't disagree with many of the stated aims of 'base building' -- e.g., improving metabolism, building resistance to injury, and so on.  (As you suggest, not everybody states the same aims...)  I just don't see why one should think that keeping absolutely all of my training in a given zone is the way to achieve these things.

For lack of a better term, I do tend to refer to the first part of my own periodized plan as 'base training', but even during this time, I do mix up the paces, including some fairly fast (for me) running.  I do not tend to do long tempo runs or really hard long intervals, but neither do I run everything in Z1-2.  (I don't do those harder workouts because I'm not ready for them yet, not because they violate some precept of 'base training'.)  The main thing that I'm 'building' during this time is volume.

That's all just about running.  I'm a total ignoramous about triathlon training -- still experimenting with that.

 

 Right now my cycling coach for my juniors team has us riding nothing above  zone 1 - 2.  WE have 3.5 hours ever wednesday 1 hour on friday 3 hours on Saturday and 3 hours on Sunday (other day have weight / plyometrics) and I never go above zone two.  

 That makes me feel a little better when it takes me 3 hours to go 45-50 miles.

2008-12-03 3:35 PM
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Subject: RE: What Is Base Building Training?

tjfry - 2008-12-03 3:34 PM what is this aerobic economic you speak of (what is the definition)? Also Chris should know that most anaerobic effort (relying exclusively on the anaerobic system) last around 2 min or a bit longer for pro athletes. Anyway, yes all tri distances are aerobic efforts which lends strength to the argument made on the article I posted that training at different intensities will develop your endurance, whether riding easy pace or z1 or riding intervals at V02Max or z5, it is ALL aerobic.

Zone 5 is Aerobic? Hmmmm… Guess we’re gonna have to agree to disagree.

It is aerobic (everything is), it just also employs the anaerobic system.

2008-12-03 4:22 PM
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