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friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number
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| General Discussion | Triathlon Talk » friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number | Rss Feed  |
 2009-06-23 11:29 AM |
Expert  943    Highlands Ranch, CO |  Subject: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race numberGood Morning All, My friend and I did our first Olympic distance race this past weekend. She forgot her race number coming out of T2 and shortly returned to T2 to get it thinking that she would be disqualified if she didn't have it. She couldn't find it when she went back(it was moved by someone thinking it was theirs) so she completed the course without it. Her times never showed up on the website and the timing company states that "You were placed into the class X as a result of a USA Triathlon penalty of 3.4a Entire Course DNF." While I am far from being schooled in the rules, I don't see how this penalty applies to her. Can anyone provide some insite? Also she was told that if she wants to contest it she needs to contact usatriathlon.org. but the website doesn't give any specific e-mail or numbers for them. Thanks! Kathleen |
| 2009-06-23 11:36 AM in reply to: #2237036 |
Master 1517 Raleigh | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number i would think that returnin can either (a) mess up the timing as u cross the timing pads to get in /out of transition (b) impede others from exiting transition. you number is body marked in case something happens to your number "plate", no? |
| 2009-06-23 11:36 AM in reply to: #2237036 |
Regular 103 NYC/South Jersey | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number I think the rule is that the number is supposed to be displayed in the front of the athlete at all times. Were you guys wearing timing chips? |
| 2009-06-23 11:38 AM in reply to: #2237066 |
Regular 103 NYC/South Jersey | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number Yeah...Could be crossing over the timing mat twice messed up the splits. Sucks. I would try to find pics of crossing the finishing line with the time in view. |
| 2009-06-23 11:38 AM in reply to: #2237036 |
Expert 943 Highlands Ranch, CO | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number Yep, we had timing chips and they announced her name crossing the finish line. They were able to read her name off of the chip. |
| 2009-06-23 11:39 AM in reply to: #2237036 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number Just from what I'm reading here I would guess she crossed the timing mats (coming out of T2) several times and somehow screwed up her timing so that it appears she didn't complete the course. Frankly, I would think there is little she can do to get an official time and standing. Maybe start with the race director. Regardless, she knows what she did and how fast she did it. No one can take that away from her. |
| 2009-06-23 11:41 AM in reply to: #2237036 |
| over a barrier | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number Exiting and rentry into transition probably created some funky timing issues....I'm guessing that reentry may have been considered the run time final tally. Start with the race director.....this will not be a USAT issue. |
| 2009-06-23 11:43 AM in reply to: #2237079 |
Expert 1170 Southern Pines, NC | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number Kath2163 - 2009-06-23 12:38 PM Yep, we had timing chips and they announced her name crossing the finish line. They were able to read her name off of the chip. The finish line could probably read the chip, but once it saw an extra trip into/out of transition it probably flagged as a violation or something. |
| 2009-06-23 11:51 AM in reply to: #2237036 |
Expert 1170 Southern Pines, NC | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number "3.4 Race Conduct. All participants in USA Triathlon sanctioned events must adhere to the rules in this Section 3.4: a. Entire Course. Participants must cover the prescribed course in its entirety. It is the participant’s responsibility to know the course. Any violation of this section, even if no advantage is gained, shall result in a variable time penalty, unless the Head Referee in his sole discretion determines that (i) the violation was substantial and resulted in an unfair time advantage, or (ii) the violation constituted endangerment under Section 3.4(l). In the event the Head Referee makes such a determination, the penalty shall be disqualification." I think it's a stretch to say that re-entering transition is a substantial violation and results in an unfair advantage, or that you're endangering someone. Unless, of course, the chip system is dumb enough to mark the re-entry into T2 as a finish.... |
| 2009-06-23 11:52 AM in reply to: #2237098 |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number Hindsight being 20/20, probably should have just run without the number. I did that once without any penalty. NOT saying that was against the rules, but so minor, and because of chip timing, didn't seem to phase anyone. I'll be honest, I think the number is just for photographers to be able to identify you, and for the MC to be able to call your name when you finish the race. With chip timing, they sort have become obsolete, IMO. I bet you can sort it out with the timing company or RD. I had timing issues before with races and just emailed them, told them the situation, and they fixed it. The timing systems are FAR from infalible. Once, someone triped over one of the wires at T2, and they didn't catch it for about 100 racers. They had their bike time and T2 time added together. |
| 2009-06-23 12:10 PM in reply to: #2237130 |
Champion 8766 Evergreen, Colorado | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number DrPete - 2009-06-23 11:51 AM "3.4 Race Conduct. All participants in USA Triathlon sanctioned events must adhere to the rules in this Section 3.4: a. Entire Course. Participants must cover the prescribed course in its entirety. It is the participant’s responsibility to know the course. Any violation of this section, even if no advantage is gained, shall result in a variable time penalty, unless the Head Referee in his sole discretion determines that (i) the violation was substantial and resulted in an unfair time advantage, or (ii) the violation constituted endangerment under Section 3.4(l). In the event the Head Referee makes such a determination, the penalty shall be disqualification." I think it's a stretch to say that re-entering transition is a substantial violation and results in an unfair advantage, or that you're endangering someone. Unless, of course, the chip system is dumb enough to mark the re-entry into T2 as a finish.... This is what I was wondering...usually if they flag the rules for the DQ you actually did something WRONG. We had a bunch of folks DQ'ed for that at Soma in 2008 because they (mostly unintentionally) cut the course. Someway somehow her chip flagged something weird that made it look like she'd cut the course. Just e-mail the RD and explain...they can probably fix it. I've stopped publishing my race results until days after the race to give the RD time to putz with them. My standings changed by 3-4 people during the first few days after my last race...and I'm sure it was all from situations like this! Timing chips are awesome, but they cannot think like a human being. |
| 2009-06-23 12:38 PM in reply to: #2237133 |
Extreme Veteran 417 Davidson | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number "Hindsight being 20/20, probably should have just run without the number. I did that once without any penalty. NOT saying that was against the rules, but so minor, and because of chip timing, didn't seem to phase anyone."
Greg |
| 2009-06-23 12:42 PM in reply to: #2237350 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number trinewby - 2009-06-23 2:38 PM I have noticed many of the elite competitors around here running without numbers in just about all of the local sprint events. I have always wondered if there was some sort of special set of rules for them. I am beginning to understand how they are able to get transition times of less than a minute with their bike racks in a prime position and no need to bother with those annoying race numbers. Not that I am jealous or anything.... While the bike rack position can make a significant difference, a race number should not add any time to your transition. Simply put your shoes on, grab your number and then put it on while you run. Shane |
| 2009-06-23 1:03 PM in reply to: #2237036 |
Elite 3315 Miami | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number if it was me i would have ran without the number, and if they decide to give me a penalty i'll take the 1 min. it would have probably be the same running back into transition anyways. |
| 2009-06-23 1:17 PM in reply to: #2237036 |
Elite 4048 Gilbert, Az. | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number Kath2163 - 2009-06-23 9:29 AM Good Morning All, My friend and I did our first Olympic distance race this past weekend. She forgot her race number coming out of T2 and shortly returned to T2 to get it thinking that she would be disqualified if she didn't have it. She couldn't find it when she went back(it was moved by someone thinking it was theirs) so she completed the course without it. Her times never showed up on the website and the timing company states that "You were placed into the class X as a result of a USA Triathlon penalty of 3.4a Entire Course DNF." While I am far from being schooled in the rules, I don't see how this penalty applies to her. Can anyone provide some insite? Also she was told that if she wants to contest it she needs to contact usatriathlon.org. but the website doesn't give any specific e-mail or numbers for them. Thanks! Kathleen The timing system can't tell where your chip crosses over it. All it registers is a blip that marks the time. I haven't played with a timing system at all, so some of this is conjecture, but it's probably programmed so that each blip automatically flags a new section, i.e.: Start - blip 1 = coming out of water/enter T1. Blip - exit t1, start bike, Blip - end bike, start t2. Blip, end t2 start run. blip (as she runs back in), end of race. BLip and blip after that (exit t2 again and over the finish line) may or may not be recorded. Best thing is to contact the race director, explain what happened and see if there are "extra" times at the end and if they can adjust the times and remove the DQ. John |
| 2009-06-23 1:47 PM in reply to: #2237133 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number Aikidoman - 2009-06-23 11:52 AM I'll be honest, I think the number is just for photographers to be able to identify you, and for the MC to be able to call your name when you finish the race. With chip timing, they sort have become obsolete, IMO. Not just for photographers 3.4 Race Conduct. All participants in USA Triathlon sanctioned events must adhere to the rules in this Section 3.4: f. Race Numbers. Participants shall plainly display their race numbers at all times, and shall maintain the race number in an unaltered, unobstructed and readable state at the start and finish gates, in the transition areas, and on the course. Any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty. Of course one can make the case that body markings will suffice as numbers, but it could come down to interpretation. I can tell you that the very experienced head referee I worked under at IM70.3NO was adamant that participants display their race-provided numbers on the bike and on the run.
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| 2009-06-23 1:58 PM in reply to: #2237468 |
Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number tkd.teacher - 2009-06-23 2:17 PM The timing system can't tell where your chip crosses over it. All it registers is a blip that marks the time. I haven't played with a timing system at all, so some of this is conjecture, but it's probably programmed so that each blip automatically flags a new section, i.e.: Start - blip 1 = coming out of water/enter T1. Blip - exit t1, start bike, Blip - end bike, start t2. Blip, end t2 start run. blip (as she runs back in), end of race. BLip and blip after that (exit t2 again and over the finish line) may or may not be recorded. I think they are more advanced than that. The technology to record which mat is crossed is not that difficult. I've read news account of people caught cheating in races because the didn't cross a specific timing mat. |
| 2009-06-23 2:15 PM in reply to: #2237576 |
Elite 3091 Spokane, WA | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number the bear - 2009-06-23 1:47 PM Aikidoman - 2009-06-23 11:52 AM I'll be honest, I think the number is just for photographers to be able to identify you, and for the MC to be able to call your name when you finish the race. With chip timing, they sort have become obsolete, IMO. Not just for photographers 3.4 Race Conduct. All participants in USA Triathlon sanctioned events must adhere to the rules in this Section 3.4: f. Race Numbers. Participants shall plainly display their race numbers at all times, and shall maintain the race number in an unaltered, unobstructed and readable state at the start and finish gates, in the transition areas, and on the course. Any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty. Of course one can make the case that body markings will suffice as numbers, but it could come down to interpretation. I can tell you that the very experienced head referee I worked under at IM70.3NO was adamant that participants display their race-provided numbers on the bike and on the run.
I believe this is correct--the race number is not just for the photographer. The body-mark can be covered by clothing, therefore the race number is the best way for officials to know your number out on the course--for drafting or other violations.
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| 2009-06-23 2:24 PM in reply to: #2237036 |
Pro 4612 MA | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number Running without your bib number may get you a 1-2 min time penalty, but would not get your disqualified. I have seen too many BIBs that got dropped on the floor on the bike/run course. I don't think they all DQ'ed. But messing up the timing system may get your DQ'ed. |
| 2009-06-23 2:30 PM in reply to: #2237365 |
Extreme Veteran 417 Davidson | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number gsmacleod - 2009-06-23 1:42 PM trinewby - 2009-06-23 2:38 PM I have noticed many of the elite competitors around here running without numbers in just about all of the local sprint events. I have always wondered if there was some sort of special set of rules for them. I am beginning to understand how they are able to get transition times of less than a minute with their bike racks in a prime position and no need to bother with those annoying race numbers. Not that I am jealous or anything.... While the bike rack position can make a significant difference, a race number should not add any time to your transition. Simply put your shoes on, grab your number and then put it on while you run. Shane Hah! You haven't seen ME do a transition! By the time I finish my bagel and comb my hair (you know, from the helmet) I really don't want to take the time to fool with that dang race number. Heck, they have already written it all over my giant biceps and quads, can't these people see???? Greg |
| 2009-06-23 3:22 PM in reply to: #2237608 |
Elite 4048 Gilbert, Az. | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number mrbbrad - 2009-06-23 11:58 AM tkd.teacher - 2009-06-23 2:17 PM The timing system can't tell where your chip crosses over it. All it registers is a blip that marks the time. I haven't played with a timing system at all, so some of this is conjecture, but it's probably programmed so that each blip automatically flags a new section, i.e.: Start - blip 1 = coming out of water/enter T1. Blip - exit t1, start bike, Blip - end bike, start t2. Blip, end t2 start run. blip (as she runs back in), end of race. BLip and blip after that (exit t2 again and over the finish line) may or may not be recorded. I think they are more advanced than that. The technology to record which mat is crossed is not that difficult. I've read news account of people caught cheating in races because the didn't cross a specific timing mat. Very possible on the identification part, but in the instances I've read about DQ, the mat was there to make sure they hit a certain point on the course, not necessarily that it was a "special" mat. I know at the triathlon I volunteered at last year, I heard the computer guys griping about someone that had crossed the mat several times "Look at this one! They've got 12 time splits already!!" But, like I said, it was conjecture, so anything is possible.  John |
| 2009-06-23 5:57 PM in reply to: #2237036 |
Expert 957 | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number I do know that there are at least some timing systems out there that will only record the last time someone crossed the mat and not the original time(s). At the very least, the system probably recorded that she crossed it twice (remember not to do that everyone as it can screw up the results). Although, it's not all that uncommon for someone to run back to transition for one reason or another (flat tire, nutrition, race belt etc.). |
| 2009-06-23 10:03 PM in reply to: #2237036 |
Master 1848 Canandaigua | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number Here a trick I used at my last tri. I once forgot my number and it bugged me the whole run. I wear shorts and top. Before the wet suit went on I put my race belt on and turned the number up under the shirt and covered belt and number with top. I really didn't feel it on the swim or ride. Running (if you can call it that) out of T2 lifted the shirt and pulled the number down. No flapping on the ride. No one throwing my number into the next county while looking for theirs. Hey something I did worked. |
| 2009-06-24 9:24 PM in reply to: #2237036 |
Expert 943 Highlands Ranch, CO | Subject: RE: friend put on DNF list for returning to t2 for race number-Update Update... |
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