3-4 day marathon training plan?

Removing any running from your marathon plan, IMHO, is going to leave you less prepared and maybe even more susceptible to injury.

No matter what plan you use, DO NOT short it or I'd say even change it in any way. They are very specifically designed and most are tweaked over time and as thousands of runners use them, for a reason.

Both Jeff Galloway and FIRST have 3-day-a-week marathon training programs. My only experience, albeit a fair amount of doing it and coaching it, is only with the Galloway method.


http://www.jeffgalloway.com

http://www.furman.edu/first/fmtp.htm

Please do not do FIRST unless you have a solid running background.  It is NOT a beginner running program.

I've used the F.I.R.S.T. program that the OPs mentioned.  It's awesome and I've always felt prepared when I reached the starting line.  Great way to train while reducing your injury risk.  I highly recommend it.

I'd probably go that route.  The coach I have has set up a couple of people I know with 3-4 days a week plans and they got much much faster over 3-4 months.  Cut the fluff out.  Runs all had a purpose.  Fast a couple days and long one day.  It worked for them because they had some lingering issues and running 6 days a week just beat them up too much.

That being said, I don't thing there is anyway you could execute a plan of that nature effectively while also trying to execute JorgeM's cycling program.  You need the days in between for recovery.  Work is a measure of intensity and volume and since the volume is lower the intensity is much higher for the most part and the recovery will get short changed and you could very well end up droning along in a continuous cycle of moderate intensity effort workouts which is a trap I fell into at one point.
One of the big things I've noticed I had done in the past is not taking easy days easy enough and limiting my ability to take the hard days hard enough...just something to think about as you try to sequence 4 runs with 3 hard bike sessions a week...

I think it depends on your running background.

I just did a marathon one month after IM, against the advice of 90% of the people on BT.
My longest run training for IM was 3 hours, and I only did one of those.
The longest run I did between IM and the marathon was a 2-hour run, and I only did one of those.

I was only running 3-4 days per week the whole year.

I had a GREAT day and PRed by 32 minutes.

However, it's my third marathon and I've been running for a long time and I don't tend to become injured from running.

Unless you are in danger of becoming injured (which is quite possible) a very high percentage of marathoning is mental.

Agreed.  IMO, it's more for people who already have speed and endurance and are just looking for a way to alter their current running to 3 days a week. 

The title of the book is "Run LESS, Run Faster".  Well...if you never were running 30-35 mpw for 18 weeks...then you're not running less...you're running more.

If you don't have a solid running background already, it is a poor way to train while increasing your injury risk.




If you have "lingering issues", all the more reason to drop any intensity.  If running 6 days a week beats you up, start with fewer.  And then build.

Many p?eople love FIRST because it gives them a "short-cut" training ?program?.?? ? ??I?t? ?w?i?l?l? ?w?o?r?k? ?j?u?s?t? ?f?i?n?e? ?f?o?r? ?s?o?m?e??? ??(?e?i?t?h?e?r? ?t?h?o?s?e? ?w?i?t?h? ?a? ?g?o?o?d? ?b?a?s?e? ?o???r????????? ?t?h?o?s?e? ?w?h?e?r?e? ?t?h?e? ?h?i?g?h?e?r? ?r?i?s?k? ?s?i?m?p?l?y? ?d?o?e?s?n?'?t? ?c?o?m?e? ?b?a?c?k? ?t?o? ?b?i?t?e? ?t?h?e?m????)??,? ?b?u?t? ?i?s? ?h?o?r?r?i?b?l?e? ?a?d?v?i?c?e? ?f?o?r? ?m?a?n?y?.?

Edited by JohnnyKay 2010-10-21 10:49 AM

I'm three weeks out from my first marathon and have been using this plan by Benji Durden. I haven't done any of the optional runs, so just three runs each week. When I started, I had done a half-marathon and olympic tri, but each just barely, so I had a lot of endurance to build. In the beginning I was cross-training a lot, now, due to other forces, I'm just doing these three runs each week. Mileage-wise, I'll peak this week around 40. I feel good going into the race, but, as always, YMMV. Good luck.

Well I typically train for half marathons on 3 days a week... and the one stand alone marathon I did, I trained on 4-5 days a week. BUT I also did a walk/run for that training.

While I am not the fastest runner, I am VERY PRONE to injury. So 3-4 days a week of straight running is about all my body can handle without getting injured.

I tried to switch to 4 days a week for half marathon training and had a miserable running season with various odd injuries along the way. Left me with an Achilles tendon issue and walking a lot of my half marathon at my HIM in Sept. While I know that is NOT the only cause of my problems (I also contribute it to me ramping up my running too quickly, and the miserable heat that beat my spirit down)... I am sure it played a part.

I was going to train for a marathon on 4-5 days a week and had written out a plan. I basically use a "off the shelf plan" (Runners World?) and I modified it to fit my goals. I always modify plans and create my own from them though. I just try to look at the overall volume each week and increase it properly from week to week.

Unfortunately, I just got c@cky back in May-June... and thought I could essentially take a month off running (dealing with school/homework) and go back at 20 mpw. Bad decision.

If you have "lingering issues", all the more reason to drop any intensity.  If running 6 days a week beats you up, start with fewer.  And then build.

Many p?eople love FIRST because it gives them a "short-cut" training ?program?.?? ? ??I?t? ?w?i?l?l? ?w?o?r?k? ?j?u?s?t? ?f?i?n?e? ?f?o?r? ?s?o?m?e??? ??(?e?i?t?h?e?r? ?t?h?o?s?e? ?w?i?t?h? ?a? ?g?o?o?d? ?b?a?s?e? ?o???r????????? ?t?h?o?s?e? ?w?h?e?r?e? ?t?h?e? ?h?i?g?h?e?r? ?r?i?s?k? ?s?i?m?p?l?y? ?d?o?e?s?n?'?t? ?c?o?m?e? ?b?a?c?k? ?t?o? ?b?i?t?e? ?t?h?e?m????)??,? ?b?u?t? ?i?s? ?h?o?r?r?i?b?l?e? ?a?d?v?i?c?e? ?f?o?r? ?m?a?n?y?.?

I'm running my first marathon next weekend after having trained on the FIRST program, and looking at around 4:15-4:20 for a finish (maybe a little faster, but we'll see what happens on race day).  I used the FIRST program while I was training for a half iron: I built in some off weeks for taper and recovery around the HIM, and programmed my bike and run training around the run training for FIRST.

Hi David -

If you are aiming to complete the marathon running (or run/walking if you do Galloway) and do not have any time goals (which is, IMHO, what all first-timers should do), a marathon plan is not rocket science and it is not magic.  All you have to do is build up your mileage to a long run of about 20/22 miles while maintaining a good base of mileage on your other runs. 

DH wrote my plan for the one non-IM marathon that I have been able to start and finish.  I registered and trained for three others, but injured myself during training (Atlanta Track Club plan = knee; Hal Higdon = knee; my own plan + new shoes = plantar fasciitis). 

I built myself up to 3 eight mile runs per week and we started from there.  We added a fourth run during the week to give me additional mileage.  Here are the plan parameters:

1.  Run at least 25 miles per week of base for at least one month before starting marathon training.
2.  4 runs per week.  No skipping workouts.  If you are building to marathon mileage, I would not substitute a bike for a run.  You could do a brick, though, after your trainer ride if you are not trashed.
3.  All short runs were at least 6-8 miles.
4.  Long runs no more than 1/2 of weekly mileage.
5.  Long runs every other weekend after we passed 14 miles.
6.  Long runs increased by about 2 miles per week, with step-back weeks in between the 18 miler and the 21 miler.

Because I was recovering from the PF, I ran very very slowly.  I did no speed work and ran all of my runs at the same pace, which was slower than forever pace for me.  I ran the whole marathon and finished in 4:3X.

Good luck on your race!
Steph

FIRST helped me BQ at my third marathon, but I wouldn't call it a short-cut at all.  I ran less, and ran faster on race day, but I ran hard during training. I agree that it is not for everyone, but each person needs to figure that out for themselves. It's not the fault of the training methodology if people go into it unprepared.

I've done the FIRST 5k, and half mary this year and love the program.  The 5k I did without having much of a base and had no problems, but that doesn't mean some won't.  The speed workout (Run#1) is always tough for me, but it has improved my running.  I just started running Jan 2010 & could barely do 2 miles @ a 10:00 m/m pace.  This past Sept I ran a half mary in 1:54 which is 8:43 pace, and I've remained injury free even though I'm still over 200 lbs.

Any run training I do from now on I will continue to use FIRST.

I have zero problem with the training methodology.  I have a problem with recommending it to those who likely have no business using it.  If they still want to "push it" and take the risk, that's fine.  But make sure eyes are wide open about who this plan is designed for and who it's not.  It's designed for experienced runners who don't want to commit the added time needed to "properly" prepare for a marathon.  FIRST lets them make up with intensity what they give up in volume.  As you said, you ran hard during training.  Exactly for that reason, it is a TERRIBLE plan for many marathoners who are already starting training on a relatively weak base (many don't even start with the base they should have for the much easier/safee Higdon beginner plans).

Which is why it isn't a good plan for everyone, and IMO why it's especially not a good plan for beginners. Experienced runners with a solid running base (many years of running and lots of miles on the legs) can stand up to the higher intensity training of the FIRST program. Runners without that kind of background can easily end up injured trying to follow it. I think what JK means when he calls the program a "short cut" for many people, is that a beginner might look at several marathon programs, come across FIRST, and say "Hey, great! Here's a program that only requires me to run 3 days/week. I can do that." And then, because they don't have the base to support the higher intensity runs, and the long runs toward the end make up too much of the total weekly running volume, they end up injured.

I'm going to speak up as a newer runner.  I just completed my first half marathon.  One of the things I keep getting asked post race is whether I'm ready to do a marathon yet.  My thinking is that I'm going to do at least another season of half marathons while continuing to build my volume and frequency.  I trained of 4 days a week of running and there is no way I can fathom that being enough to be ready for a marathon.  At least not for a few more years while I gather the experience and adaptations that years of running gives a persons body.  As it is I hope to be running 5 days a week next season just for halfs.  I think you are asking for trouble trying to build enough volume on 3-4 days a week. 

Exactly.  Or, they don't end up injured and think that the plan works great for them.  When, in fact, they have merely gotten lucky and will likely become injured if they continue with that type of mentality for their run training.  Most people actually aren't that "different".  And there are certain things that are very likely to "work for them".  Or not to. 

FIRST-type training will get a beginner faster, more quickly.  Right up to the point that they break and can't run for a period of time.  A similar individual taking a "steady builder" approach will eventually pass them by and never be caught again.  At 5k, 26.2mi, whatever.  Again, as long as they go in eyes wide open, I don't really care if they want to take some added risks.  Some may decide it's worth the chance, especially if the alternatives are sufficiently unappealing to them.

I used Hal's novice plan for my 2nd marathon.  I was injured much of 2008.  I used 2009 to build my running back up.  I got my base up to a measly 20-25 mpw when I started Hal's marathon program.  I followed it very faithfully and found that runs longer than 13 miles beat me up pretty bad.  My 20 miler was pretty painful.  I went in with a goal, and finished 30 minutes AFTER my goal.  In hindsight I simply didn't have enough base, and the plan that I used was simply to get me to the finish line not to accomplish a time goal.  I have done 2 marathons and I did better in my first marathon using a plan that I modified myself.  It alternated between 4 days and 5 days.  Longest run was 18 miles, but I did (3) 18 milers.    I believe it peaked at 55 mpw.  

jami 

I think the point of adequate rest/recovery is key here. If you are taxing your body 3-4 times a week with Jorge's winter cycling plan (and tax your body - it will) and then want to cram in marathon training on top of that - you are setting yourself up for injury.

If you are doing Jorge's plan correctly - you will have little left in your system for extensive run training. If you are just doing the bike and run workouts adequately, you will fit all the workouts in - but they won't be good, high quality workouts that will benefit you in the long run.

You are young - you have PLENTY of time to do plenty of races. Take the time to build up a good solid base before trying to prepare for a marathon on tired legs.

Yes.  And if you drop a run it will "hurt" your marathon.  That may be OK with you if your priority is to work on the bike over the winter and you just want to do enough running to finish the marathon.

But, since no one has asked yet, what's your running background?  What are your goals?