SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN (Page 100)
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by ligersandtions What kind of workouts do you guys do to improve your VO2max? I recently did 5 minute and 20 minute power tests (5min on Thursday, 20min on Saturday) and came out with 206W and 193W, respectively. I'm pretty sure that means my VO2max is pretty weak in comparison to my FTP....and also means that it needs to be improved before making much/any real gains in the FTP department. Also, in relation to the conversation above, I wouldn't blindly use FTP to pace a longer race, but am looking to improve it for overall fitness. Nicole, Your numbers are not that strange. Your 5min is not abnormally low compared to your 20min. read this article http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-profiling.aspx Most important, look at this spreadsheet it points to http://home.trainingpeaks.com/media/69406/powerprofiling_v4.xls You would rank slightly lower on the 5min test but not that much lower. I could simply by a testing thing. I am 2 rows lower, just like you. While VO2 work is really good, especially in the off season, don't think you are abormally low. As a matter of fact I suspect you are borderline cat 4/cat 3 But I don't know your weight and I would never ask :-) |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by ligersandtions Nicole, Your numbers are not that strange. Your 5min is not abnormally low compared to your 20min. read this article http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-profiling.aspxMost important, look at this spreadsheet it points to http://home.trainingpeaks.com/media/69406/powerprofiling_v4.xlsYou would rank slightly lower on the 5min test but not that much lower. I could simply by a testing thing. I am 2 rows lower, just like you. While VO2 work is really good, especially in the off season, don't think you are abormally low. As a matter of fact I suspect you are borderline cat 4/cat 3 But I don't know your weight and I would never ask :-) What kind of workouts do you guys do to improve your VO2max? I recently did 5 minute and 20 minute power tests (5min on Thursday, 20min on Saturday) and came out with 206W and 193W, respectively. I'm pretty sure that means my VO2max is pretty weak in comparison to my FTP....and also means that it needs to be improved before making much/any real gains in the FTP department. Also, in relation to the conversation above, I wouldn't blindly use FTP to pace a longer race, but am looking to improve it for overall fitness. Something I'm still working on is being able to better determine when VO2 would be more beneficial. Think I'm flat from FTP to 5 min in that chart, but I don't really work VO2 that often. Arend's even commented that I seem to run a lower percent of FTP than expected when I do. Just touching it every once in awhile with a good deal of threshold level effort seems to keep pushing everything up. Definitely want more of a time trialer profile, but still want a little something to attack the hills a bit. And Nicole, that does actually seem fairly strong. Maybe find some of the training peaks files for the pro tri women. A lot of guys would really like to be able to make even something like Pete Jacobs IM effort of like 290-295. Edited by brigby1 2013-10-09 6:39 PM |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by ligersandtions Nicole, Your numbers are not that strange. Your 5min is not abnormally low compared to your 20min. read this article http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-profiling.aspxMost important, look at this spreadsheet it points to http://home.trainingpeaks.com/media/69406/powerprofiling_v4.xlsYou would rank slightly lower on the 5min test but not that much lower. I could simply by a testing thing. I am 2 rows lower, just like you. While VO2 work is really good, especially in the off season, don't think you are abormally low. As a matter of fact I suspect you are borderline cat 4/cat 3 But I don't know your weight and I would never ask :-) What kind of workouts do you guys do to improve your VO2max? I recently did 5 minute and 20 minute power tests (5min on Thursday, 20min on Saturday) and came out with 206W and 193W, respectively. I'm pretty sure that means my VO2max is pretty weak in comparison to my FTP....and also means that it needs to be improved before making much/any real gains in the FTP department. Also, in relation to the conversation above, I wouldn't blindly use FTP to pace a longer race, but am looking to improve it for overall fitness. Thanks, I'll read through that article. My estimated power to weight ratio for my FTP (using the 5min and 20min tests) puts me right at 3.5, which I am pretty happy with given only a year of real training. My 5min is a bit lower on the chart, falling at 3.8. I remember reading at some point on ST that if your 5MP is within ~10% (I think) of your FTP that you would benefit from "raising the roof" before you could "raise the ceiling". Given four days on the bike (two 60-70 min, one 90ish min, and one as long as I feel like), I feel like it may be beneficial to devote two of those to VO2max work, one to threshold, and one to sweet spot -- sound reasonable? |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by brigby1 Something I'm still working on is being able to better determine when VO2 would be more beneficial. Think I'm flat from FTP to 5 min in that chart, but I don't really work VO2 that often. Arend's even commented that I seem to run a lower percent of FTP than expected when I do. Just touching it every once in awhile with a good deal of threshold level effort seems to keep pushing everything up. Definitely want more of a time trialer profile, but still want a little something to attack the hills a bit. And Nicole, that does actually seem fairly strong. Maybe find some of the training peaks files for the pro tri women. A lot of guys would really like to be able to make even something like Pete Jacobs IM effort of like 290-295. How do I do that? I haven't used TP a ton -- can I search other peoples' logs? Do I need the Premium account? |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by ligersandtions Nicole, Your numbers are not that strange. Your 5min is not abnormally low compared to your 20min. read this article http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-profiling.aspxMost important, look at this spreadsheet it points to http://home.trainingpeaks.com/media/69406/powerprofiling_v4.xlsYou would rank slightly lower on the 5min test but not that much lower. I could simply by a testing thing. I am 2 rows lower, just like you. While VO2 work is really good, especially in the off season, don't think you are abormally low. As a matter of fact I suspect you are borderline cat 4/cat 3 But I don't know your weight and I would never ask :-) What kind of workouts do you guys do to improve your VO2max? I recently did 5 minute and 20 minute power tests (5min on Thursday, 20min on Saturday) and came out with 206W and 193W, respectively. I'm pretty sure that means my VO2max is pretty weak in comparison to my FTP....and also means that it needs to be improved before making much/any real gains in the FTP department. Also, in relation to the conversation above, I wouldn't blindly use FTP to pace a longer race, but am looking to improve it for overall fitness. Yeesh. I shouldn't be surprised, but that chart is evil. I go from "untrained" (OUCH) to looooooow Cat 5 to mid-Cat 3 (for the 5 min and 1hr) on a W/kg basis. Guess I need some low end work! I don't really ever sprint anymore, so not sure if the low end numbers are representative - but you can bet I'm going to go after a couple of town lines and see what happens... Matt |
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![]() Like I said, the vibe is unreal. And I've got a new fan.
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by ligersandtions Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by ligersandtions Nicole, Your numbers are not that strange. Your 5min is not abnormally low compared to your 20min. read this article http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-profiling.aspxMost important, look at this spreadsheet it points to http://home.trainingpeaks.com/media/69406/powerprofiling_v4.xlsYou would rank slightly lower on the 5min test but not that much lower. I could simply by a testing thing. I am 2 rows lower, just like you. While VO2 work is really good, especially in the off season, don't think you are abormally low. As a matter of fact I suspect you are borderline cat 4/cat 3 But I don't know your weight and I would never ask :-) What kind of workouts do you guys do to improve your VO2max? I recently did 5 minute and 20 minute power tests (5min on Thursday, 20min on Saturday) and came out with 206W and 193W, respectively. I'm pretty sure that means my VO2max is pretty weak in comparison to my FTP....and also means that it needs to be improved before making much/any real gains in the FTP department. Also, in relation to the conversation above, I wouldn't blindly use FTP to pace a longer race, but am looking to improve it for overall fitness. Thanks, I'll read through that article. My estimated power to weight ratio for my FTP (using the 5min and 20min tests) puts me right at 3.5, which I am pretty happy with given only a year of real training. My 5min is a bit lower on the chart, falling at 3.8. I remember reading at some point on ST that if your 5MP is within ~10% (I think) of your FTP that you would benefit from "raising the roof" before you could "raise the ceiling". Given four days on the bike (two 60-70 min, one 90ish min, and one as long as I feel like), I feel like it may be beneficial to devote two of those to VO2max work, one to threshold, and one to sweet spot -- sound reasonable? Well, for that you want to take a look at what you need to develop. And for a triathlete, regardless of the distance, it's going to be threshold power. So you want the workouts to concentrate on that. Doesn't mean every workout is there, but done with that in mind. Sometimes over, up into VO2 to push that up higher, sometimes under and lots more riding to generate more overall aerobic stress. And sweet spot is usually good to put in, but know that it's more like a useful tool as opposed to a point to develop. It's not actually a zone or a condition like the others are. It's an area that gives a quite bit of benefit for the time put in, an area that one can put a fair amount of time in, and can usually recover fairly well from. Some people throw it in for the heck of it as say 2 x 15-20' because they hear it's good. That's fine, but I might work up to 90-120 minutes of it in a single workout at times. I'm not saying it's necessary to do that, just that it's quite possible. Look at it as part of the whole plan. And for the power files, I just google around for them. No special account needed. Here is one for Rachel Joyce, who usually does rather well at Kona. Here is a page with a number of people. Some featured and more in a less obvious list down lower. Something I just noticed is that the women seem to be WAY higher in TSS than the men. Guys were coming in 280-290, but the women like 375-380. Wow. |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Should add to the first paragraph that the various distances may have additional demands that can differ from one to the next. |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by mcmanusclan5 Yeesh. I shouldn't be surprised, but that chart is evil. I go from "untrained" (OUCH) to looooooow Cat 5 to mid-Cat 3 (for the 5 min and 1hr) on a W/kg basis. Guess I need some low end work! I don't really ever sprint anymore, so not sure if the low end numbers are representative - but you can bet I'm going to go after a couple of town lines and see what happens... Matt Pretty much the same for me for a profile. I guess that explains why I had my a$$ handed to me in the sprint finish of the last bike race. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by axteraa Originally posted by mcmanusclan5 Yeesh. I shouldn't be surprised, but that chart is evil. I go from "untrained" (OUCH) to looooooow Cat 5 to mid-Cat 3 (for the 5 min and 1hr) on a W/kg basis. Guess I need some low end work! I don't really ever sprint anymore, so not sure if the low end numbers are representative - but you can bet I'm going to go after a couple of town lines and see what happens... Matt Pretty much the same for me for a profile. I guess that explains why I had my a$$ handed to me in the sprint finish of the last bike race. Invite the roadies to the pool, I bet buoyancy is inversely proportional to their cat rating |
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Extreme Veteran![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Fred D Originally posted by marcag Pretty much the same for me for a profile. I guess that explains why I had my a$$ handed to me in the sprint finish of the last bike race. Invite the roadies to the pool, I bet buoyancy is inversely proportional to their cat rating True! My bike prowess went up directly in response to the stopping of swimming and far less running. It is fairly easy to get very strong on the bike when all you do is bike.... A few week ago Jordan posted a comment that biking actually hurt swimming and he gave the reasons. Running didn't. I would have to find the post. |
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Extreme Veteran![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Fred D Can't really disagree with your points. The only point I will throw back is that I don't think we *need* to do a 20' power test to establish zones. If you are doing a lot of long rides, then over time you will know what wattage is sustainable and what isn't. That may or may not line up nicely with the 2/5 or 4/30' tests. In the end we are saying something similar.... in that you want to test and validate efforts on the bike in training rides, not just test rides.... the only part we diverge (I think) is the necessity of doing the tests. As someone who has a fair amount of long course experience, *I* kind of know what I can sustain. Seeing the wattage is a helpful guide to avoid over aggressive pacing. In spite of all of this I will probably test at various points.... but what I really liked about Golden Cheetah is that it just looked at "Hard" rides and found the data without a formal' test. There is one thing I am doing this year that is different than previous is checking "best efforts" during training. So I have a plot of my best 5, 20, 60, and 150 efforts during training. I can see if they are improving with time and when they improve, it's probably worth re-testing. Same for the run. For example, last night i had to do 2x20' tempo with 5' rest in between. I ended up running my fastest 45min run all summer. This is a strong indicator my run fitness has improved. I have done some 4hr rides where the best 2h30min give me a strong indication of what I could hold in a HIM So no, 5' and 20' tests are not the only (or best) way So I think we 100% agree :-) |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Jason N Like I said, the vibe is unreal. And I've got a new fan.
Awesome stuff. It looks like you're having a great time. |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Fred D Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by ligersandtions Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by ligersandtions Nicole, Your numbers are not that strange. Your 5min is not abnormally low compared to your 20min. read this article http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-profiling.aspxMost important, look at this spreadsheet it points to http://home.trainingpeaks.com/media/69406/powerprofiling_v4.xlsYou would rank slightly lower on the 5min test but not that much lower. I could simply by a testing thing. I am 2 rows lower, just like you. While VO2 work is really good, especially in the off season, don't think you are abormally low. As a matter of fact I suspect you are borderline cat 4/cat 3 But I don't know your weight and I would never ask :-) What kind of workouts do you guys do to improve your VO2max? I recently did 5 minute and 20 minute power tests (5min on Thursday, 20min on Saturday) and came out with 206W and 193W, respectively. I'm pretty sure that means my VO2max is pretty weak in comparison to my FTP....and also means that it needs to be improved before making much/any real gains in the FTP department. Also, in relation to the conversation above, I wouldn't blindly use FTP to pace a longer race, but am looking to improve it for overall fitness. Thanks, I'll read through that article. My estimated power to weight ratio for my FTP (using the 5min and 20min tests) puts me right at 3.5, which I am pretty happy with given only a year of real training. My 5min is a bit lower on the chart, falling at 3.8. I remember reading at some point on ST that if your 5MP is within ~10% (I think) of your FTP that you would benefit from "raising the roof" before you could "raise the ceiling". Given four days on the bike (two 60-70 min, one 90ish min, and one as long as I feel like), I feel like it may be beneficial to devote two of those to VO2max work, one to threshold, and one to sweet spot -- sound reasonable? Well, for that you want to take a look at what you need to develop. And for a triathlete, regardless of the distance, it's going to be threshold power. So you want the workouts to concentrate on that. Doesn't mean every workout is there, but done with that in mind. Sometimes over, up into VO2 to push that up higher, sometimes under and lots more riding to generate more overall aerobic stress. And sweet spot is usually good to put in, but know that it's more like a useful tool as opposed to a point to develop. It's not actually a zone or a condition like the others are. It's an area that gives a quite bit of benefit for the time put in, an area that one can put a fair amount of time in, and can usually recover fairly well from. Some people throw it in for the heck of it as say 2 x 15-20' because they hear it's good. That's fine, but I might work up to 90-120 minutes of it in a single workout at times. I'm not saying it's necessary to do that, just that it's quite possible. Look at it as part of the whole plan. And for the power files, I just google around for them. No special account needed. Here is one for Rachel Joyce, who usually does rather well at Kona. Here is a page with a number of people. Some featured and more in a less obvious list down lower. Something I just noticed is that the women seem to be WAY higher in TSS than the men. Guys were coming in 280-290, but the women like 375-380. Wow. TSS of 380? Is it possible that their FTP is just entered incorrectly as that seems way too high for an IM to run well off of? There is a chance, but there are 3 of them on there and all 3 are around 380. Now that I think about it, this is not the first time I've heard of that. How the women are able to hold a higher percent than extended as they extend out. Or they have a flatter power curve in relation to duration. I just hadn't looked at the TSS before to see where that ended up. IF ends up at 0.83-0.85 I think. |
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Elite![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Jason - looks like you're having a great time. Keep enjoying it. Good discussion on power + I like the one in TT as well. Question - do most of you spend your time riding the trainer in aero, or do you just ride the trainer in whatever position suits you. I'm thinking about spending more time in aero on the trainer, but typcially struggle a bit with the position on a static bike, while I seem fine outside. Thinking I just need to get used to it. |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Jason N Like I said, the vibe is unreal. And I've got a new fan.
Jason - I just dipped in to wish you good luck and find out your bib number. Best. Biib. Number. Post. Ever. That is awesome! |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by GoFaster Neil - I don't, and in fact hardly ever even put my tri bike on the trainer. Any trainer riding I do is almost always on the roadie. But I also don't have to do any "road simulation" on the bike like many of you do. If we couldn't ride outside all year I probably would though.Jason - looks like you're having a great time. Keep enjoying it. Good discussion on power + I like the one in TT as well. Question - do most of you spend your time riding the trainer in aero, or do you just ride the trainer in whatever position suits you. I'm thinking about spending more time in aero on the trainer, but typcially struggle a bit with the position on a static bike, while I seem fine outside. Thinking I just need to get used to it. If any of you ever get in the market for a new trainer AND you find yourself having to do your long road simulation rides on the trainer I cannot recommend the KK rock and roll (with the pro flywheel option) enough. The video promos where they show the rider out of the saddle rocking back and forth are extremely goofy - but I have mine locked all the way down so that it hardly moves at all and I cannot even begin to describe the difference over my old cyclops or my wife's regular KK. I do think the "rock & roll" part is kinda gimmicky, but the elastomers also allow for the subtlest of vertical motion even when locked down that make for a dreamy ride. And the big flywheel is crazy smooth, but it does make out of the saddle hard sprints "interesting." The downside is that it is very big and bulky and does not break down as easily as most trainers - it doesn't fold up and you actually have to remove a couple of bolts to break it down. So it is not a good travel trainer from that perspective - that is really the only reason I recent bought a different one as I am on the road a lot. But it is still my go-to trainer when I am home and for some reason have to do a longish trainer ride. |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by marcag Add me to the list of "don't test very often." I too (or rather my coach) sets my training and racing efforts off of data gathered on training rides over time. While he looks at a lot of stuff, the historic plots are the primary data he uses, just like Marc describes above. It took me a while to figure out that is what he was doing - whenever we would talk he would always refer back to specific dates and efforts, so I eventually asked him how he was accessing that data so quickly. Of course it is a capability built into training peaks, but if had never looked at it. We spend so much time talking about FTP, TSS, IF, etc, but that data over time is pure gold. Originally posted by Fred D There is one thing I am doing this year that is different than previous is checking "best efforts" during training.So I have a plot of my best 5, 20, 60, and 150 efforts during training. I can see if they are improving with time and when they improve, it's probably worth re-testing. Same for the run. For example, last night i had to do 2x20' tempo with 5' rest in between. I ended up running my fastest 45min run all summer. This is a strong indicator my run fitness has improved.I have done some 4hr rides where the best 2h30min give me a strong indication of what I could hold in a HIMSo no, 5' and 20' tests are not the only (or best) waySo I think we 100% agree :-)Can't really disagree with your points. The only point I will throw back is that I don't think we *need* to do a 20' power test to establish zones. If you are doing a lot of long rides, then over time you will know what wattage is sustainable and what isn't. That may or may not line up nicely with the 2/5 or 4/30' tests. In the end we are saying something similar.... in that you want to test and validate efforts on the bike in training rides, not just test rides.... the only part we diverge (I think) is the necessity of doing the tests. As someone who has a fair amount of long course experience, *I* kind of know what I can sustain. Seeing the wattage is a helpful guide to avoid over aggressive pacing. In spite of all of this I will probably test at various points.... but what I really liked about Golden Cheetah is that it just looked at "Hard" rides and found the data without a formal' test. I also whole-heartedly agree that while power is a GREAT way to do interval training (ESPECIALLY on the trainer), but it is a rather kludge tool for long course pacing. Conceptually pacing by effort is the holy grail, but I guess until they come out with instantaneous blood lactate meters we are stuck with all the other tools. Using a device that measures output (power) to infer input (effort) will by nature only be approximate at best and you have found it to be best utilized when bracket edit against other tools that are better proxies for input (HR, RPE, etc). |
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Elite![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by GoFaster Jason - looks like you're having a great time. Keep enjoying it. Good discussion on power + I like the one in TT as well. Question - do most of you spend your time riding the trainer in aero, or do you just ride the trainer in whatever position suits you. I'm thinking about spending more time in aero on the trainer, but typcially struggle a bit with the position on a static bike, while I seem fine outside. Thinking I just need to get used to it. I stay aero when possible on the trainer but I can't manage for nearly as long as I can outside. I did a 30' interval this morning and lasted until the 20' mark. Outside I can last much much longer. |
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Expert![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Everything that folks already have already mentioned with regards to pacing a long distance race I agree with. From a training persepective, the reason most people, me included, do the 5 minute and 20 minute tests on a regular basis is that it is a very straighforward repeatable test that verifies whether or not your training is working appropriately. If I am blasting myself on the bike for 4-6 weeks and do not show any increase in those numbers, then maybe I need to try something else. From a running perspective, I much prefer to race often and plug in my VDOT. I have trouble suffering through a run test on my own and all that does is give me crap data to train with. On a different note, I have been sufficiently convinced to go the PT route w/ DT Swiss and wheelcover. I did not even have to convince the wife much |
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