SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN (Page 110)
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by GoFaster 16km run this morning. Been suffering a bit of a knot in my left calf the past few days, and it became an issue straight away, and I changed my run from a lot of ups and downs to one that was a lot flatter. Kind of soldiered through it, although that was not the smart move as I now have a very tight/sore calf and can't really walk properly. Have a massage booked for Tuesday, so hopefully she can work it out...but I know it's going to hurt, a lot. Good luck on the HM tomorrow Tom - PR here you come!! Do you have anyone around you who does ART? I like my massage therapist and all, but I don't think she has a medical background....my ART guy really knows how to get stuff worked out for me. He's gotten me through a few things (including some shoulder pain from ramping up swimming too quickly and hip/quad/hamstring issues) so I'm going to him for bi-weekly maintenance these days. |
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Pro ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by axteraa Originally posted by Birkierunner Originally posted by Jason N What's on tap for the weekend? Riding and golf for me. 3:40 ride on the CT today (30s and rain here) and 14 mi run tomorrow likely in mixed rain and snow. 4 weeks out from IM AZ that's not exactly Arizona preparatory weather! I hear that!!! But, when I signed up last Nov I knew what I was getting into as far as late fall training weather here in northwest WI |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by GoFaster 16km run this morning. Been suffering a bit of a knot in my left calf the past few days, I have to ask....why do a 16km if injured ? Do you have an upcoming race ? |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Modified a 3 x 20' sweet spot plus 45' 85-90% workout to fit into a pair of sufferfest vids. And it seems to work rather well. Can't wait to try this after essentially watching a movie and then getting into this. Going for a swim later. Edited by brigby1 2013-10-19 3:59 PM |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by GoFaster I have to ask....why do a 16km if injured ? Do you have an upcoming race ? 16km run this morning. Been suffering a bit of a knot in my left calf the past few days, Cause I was stupid. I knew better but decided to chase my mileage goal for the week. |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by ligersandtions Originally posted by GoFaster Do you have anyone around you who does ART? I like my massage therapist and all, but I don't think she has a medical background....my ART guy really knows how to get stuff worked out for me. He's gotten me through a few things (including some shoulder pain from ramping up swimming too quickly and hip/quad/hamstring issues) so I'm going to him for bi-weekly maintenance these days. 16km run this morning. Been suffering a bit of a knot in my left calf the past few days, and it became an issue straight away, and I changed my run from a lot of ups and downs to one that was a lot flatter. Kind of soldiered through it, although that was not the smart move as I now have a very tight/sore calf and can't really walk properly. Have a massage booked for Tuesday, so hopefully she can work it out...but I know it's going to hurt, a lot. Good luck on the HM tomorrow Tom - PR here you come!! When I had my first bought of ITB I went to an ART specialist based on a recommendation of a friend who had been to everyone and done everything until she fixed him. After a few sessions and no real improvement I looked for something else. Went into the LRS to ask about anyone local that could help, and it so happened I talked with the contracted masseuse they had at the location at the time. Saw her for one session and she fixed me - I've been seeing her ever since. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by GoFaster Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by GoFaster I have to ask....why do a 16km if injured ? Do you have an upcoming race ? 16km run this morning. Been suffering a bit of a knot in my left calf the past few days, Cause I was stupid. I knew better but decided to chase my mileage goal for the week. Ya, it's hard. It's on the schedule, and you don't know if you're being a wimp or smart.....I know the feeling. If I didn't run every time I was sore, I would never run :-) Went out last night, a bit tight but ok and sure enough hurt the achilles. Good thing I have a week to recover from it. Edited by marcag 2013-10-20 4:25 AM |
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![]() woke up this morning to 60 and heavy fog. Brought the swim stuff to coffee even though I'd already decided not to OWS. Headed off for our hour run, just me and a friend going to Miami 70.3 and then NY marathon the week after. About 15 minutes in I screwed something up on the garmin and decided just to shut it off. We ran by feel and just talked. Came across a guy at about mile 75 of the EC 100 mile run, Corona Cal. to Santa Monica pier. Ran with him for a bit, then left him as he walked. It was honestly a great way to run, not tethered to time or pace. Hope to do more of that in the off season. Easy week up to Miami |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() After sitting on it for Months, I finally used Marc's 2 week TP premium code. Can someone tell me the best graphs to pay attention to (already added PMC), especially if there is anything for power profiling. Thanks |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by ChrisM woke up this morning to 60 and heavy fog. Brought the swim stuff to coffee even though I'd already decided not to OWS. Headed off for our hour run, just me and a friend going to Miami 70.3 and then NY marathon the week after. About 15 minutes in I screwed something up on the garmin and decided just to shut it off. We ran by feel and just talked. Came across a guy at about mile 75 of the EC 100 mile run, Corona Cal. to Santa Monica pier. Ran with him for a bit, then left him as he walked. It was honestly a great way to run, not tethered to time or pace. Hope to do more of that in the off season. Easy week up to Miami Did something similar Saturday. Had a long sleeve on with thumb holes and it was a couple degrees above freezing, so I had my thumbs in them. Covered the Garmin, so I decided to do the whole run by feel. It flet harder than I thought I was going, but then saw my pace and realized it was spot on - I was just feeling slower than I was going, but kept a nice steady pace throughout. Definitely good practice. And kinda nice not to be in my own head with the numbers. Did a ride of a couple hours Sunday similarly and enjoyed it more than many recent ones... Matt |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by GoFaster Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by GoFaster Do you do treadmill runs ? One thing I do, and it's entirely to play a game while on the treadmill, is to see how far I can run in 45 minutes, keeping my average HR at the Z1/Z2 limit. First few times that turned out to be 146 BPM so I have been using that. It's something to do on a treadmill. Most of what everyone has said jives with how I use HR. I like to think of it as my governor for the most part, but have learned that my body tends to show a fair amount of variability from one day to the next, and I need to allow for that. If I feel good, but HR is higher than expected then I'll typically ignore and go based off pace. I am however hoping to see a correlation with faster paces and lower HR coming out of this winter - assuming of course I keep on running.
I'd shoot myself playing that game. When I run on the treadmill (and it's getting close to that season), I try to add variety by changing up the speeds every mile, plus I take a sip of my drink every 5min, it's the best thing for me to break up the monotony. But now I'm curious how far I could go in 45min. Z2 ends at 158 for me, so does that mean you can't exceed that number? (This is not something I'm going to run out and test soon...) And for those REALLY fun long treadmill runs (when it's just too icy out), there's also GU every 30-45 minutes! Yay. Not looking forward to another snowy winter. Maybe this one will be like 2 years ago and see me inside almost never. One can only hope... Matt |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by mcmanusclan5 Not looking forward to another snowy winter. Maybe this one will be like 2 years ago and see me inside almost never. One can only hope... Matt You can do it. Set your mind to joining my "always run outside" club! |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Alright, so I'm probably annoying with my power questions, but I figure a handful of people in here are willing to talk power any chance they're given ![]() Is there a "best" (better? worse?) way to set up VO2max workouts? Would it be better to have a bunch of short (1 min?) intervals at 120% versus a few longer (5 min?) intervals at 106%? Is there an optimal amount of time to spend in the VO2max zone during a single workout? What about threshold? 2x20 @ FTP seems to be the bread and butter....but I tend to prefer something like 2-3x12 over/unders because it's more manageable physically and mentally for me. I imagine the optimal time to spend in a given zone is based on what it does for your recovery? More is better until it affects what you have planned for the next day? Is this a trial-and-error kind of thing, or is there a rule of thumb? Feel free to send me over to TP and search through articles if there's something there that I just haven't found yet.... |
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![]() Originally posted by ligersandtions Alright, so I'm probably annoying with my power questions, but I figure a handful of people in here are willing to talk power any chance they're given ![]() I'll let the others chime in on the V02 max, but as to threshold. Why is it challenging mentally and physically? And is that a reason to do shorter intervals? Just my .02, but a 2 x 20 interval should be physically challenging, but not to the point of can I complete it? It should be sufficiently hard, but not overly. I notice V02 max sets the next day but not threshold work generally As for mental, that's just trainer riding baby! |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by ligersandtions Alright, so I'm probably annoying with my power questions, but I figure a handful of people in here are willing to talk power any chance they're given ![]() This is actually running, but the principles are the same for the bike. I see people get started off using the 30-60", thinking that it's easier to get the hang of pacing and effort needed since these things should hurt. More often I'll be in the 3-5' range though. I feel I get more out of them and they are also less dependent on the recovery time, as seen in the link. Power for these also tends to be up higher than just barely making 106%. Usually going for more like 110, or maybe more like 115 for the 2-3 minute ones sometimes. Then make sure I stay above that 106% throughout. Done if I can't make that. Threshold work tends to be just around threshold. Depends on how much you're doing both in the workout and for overall training. Lower in either (or both), and the intensity tends to go up more. More volume and it tends to be down. The ride I did on Saturday included ~1:40 around 90% plus another 8 minutes up around 95%. I'm doing a good deal of riding overall and don't have a race in the near future that would demand work at a higher level, so I ride a bit lower but spend a lot more time there. My brother doesn't have this kind of time, so he'll target a higher percentage for a target like you have been. When you divide up the intervals more like that, the rest allows your body to recover and you have to build back up each time. That's why it's easier or more manageable. So to get the stress you want, you need more intervals or work at a higher level. I don't think it's necessary to try and hit 100% FTP every time for 2 x 20. For most, mid 90's is fine. The workouts should be challenging, but you should also be able to hit them consistently. I've found that I work better with larger amounts of work in the lower to mid 90's, and then occasionally going over threshold. It's not exactly the same for everyone though. |
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![]() I don't know if it's the "right" way to train, but my experiences are similar to Ben (can't be a bad thing right? ![]() For 2x20's...rarely if ever do I do them at 100% of FTP...unless it's during a time when my FTP is rising. Most times it's closer to 92-95%, which is still pretty dang hard, but not throw up on your bike hard. I find that the combination of not starting the workout on completely fresh legs, and not wanting to completely trash your legs for the next day plays a factor. If your overall training volume is lower or you have a rest day or really easy day following, then you may be able to get up closer to 95-100%, but I have found that when tri training (running 6x per week, swimming 3x), or bike focus (riding 6-7x per week), it's a lot easier to manage those workouts in the 92-95% range. |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Thanks for your thoughts, Chris, Ben, and Jason. I'll try to consolidate my response here.... As for the threshold work being challenging -- I just recently retested my FTP and it bumped up almost 20W, so even though "technically" I should be able to do 60 minutes at that power, I'm findingit to be incredibly difficult. Not to mention, it seems to have landed in a place that's right between gears, so I'm either grinding (mid-80's) or spinning like crazy (low-100's), which are not conducive to me actually convincing myself to gut it out for 10/20/45/etc minutes. You're absolutely right in that this is probably not a (good) reason to not do it... Also, mentally, doing shorter intervals, or long intervals that occasionally bump up and down help break up the monotony of it and allow me to stay focused. Again, probably not a good reason to not work through a long, steady, boring interval....but sometimes I just can't muster the mental strength at 4:30am! Thanks for the link, Ben. I'll take a look at it tonight when I have some more time to devote to it. Last week, I did a 15x 1min @ 120% workout....and since that didn't seem like it was quite hard enough, I did a 10x 1.5 min @ 120% a couple days later. For weekday rides, I have to keep it to about an hour, so I've been targeting 15-20 minutes of VO2max intervals....but maybe I'll try something more like 5-6 x 3min @ 110% tomorrow, and work my way up to 5 min intervals. I've also recently been struggling with long rides on the trainer. I'm not sure if it's mental (FTP feels too high, currently in off season and long trainer rides seem more like torture than for a specific goal) or physical (endurance fitness has gone to crap since I haven't been doing long rides, insufficient cooling despite an overhead fan and two box fans) or what....so until I buy the right clothes to ride outside now that it's "cold", it's so much easier for me to fall back into training for intensity over a short period of time rather than slightly lower power over longer periods. Hah, guess I'm trying to find the "easiest" way to get better :P |
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![]() I never do thresholds at FTP. it's about 80-90%. What my coach gives me And I take my trainer tested FTP with a grain of salt, I doubt I could really maintain that for an hour unless I was being chased by a grizzly bear. Uphill. |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Last winter I did pretty much all of my VO2 work at 120% FTP doing basically 1'ON/1'OFF. Looking back, I think I needed to do more work in the 105-120% range at longer lengths. I remember discussing with Ben last winter about relating it to Daniels Running formula. This winter I will likely be doing more in the 3-5 minute range at 110%, but also incorporating some work at 105 and 120%FTP. For threshold work, I always target 95-100%FTP. When I have just tested, 95% becomes very difficult so I usually stick around there. When I am improving and start working up to 100% for 2x20 I know it is time to re-test. I was able to do 2x20 plus 1x15 @95-100% in March of last year, at the tail end of EN Outseason, on the trainer so its definitely doable...hurts like hell...but doable. |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() My PT just shipped!!!! |
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![]() Congrats on the improvement Nicole. I wouldn't worry that much about the details of your power training just yet. Once you have a "general guideline" to follow of what types of workouts you do, your training results will pretty much guide you on if you should increase/decrease the % of FTP, or increase/decrease the length of time of each interval. You can also play around with how long your recoveries are. My general plan for the start of a cycling focus is to starting with a workout and power level I know I can hold for sure. And on the last 2 intervals of a 5x5', or the last 5 minutes of a 2x15' I just empty the tank. Depending on how much over I go during the ending of the workout determines if or by how much I increase the overall goal for the next workout. Again, I make a very conservative increase I know I can hold, then I just rinse repeat over and over again until I'm near maximum and there is no tank to empty at the end of the workout. This also helps build my confidence that I can comeplete the workout next time...because a good part of this is mental. I found that for me, when I shoot for a goal that's too high, too soon, and I don't have the confidence I can complete the workout...I end up with poor performances more times than not. Sometimes I hit it out of the park, but there have been a good number of times when I give up mentally halfway through and it just kills the rest of my workout. And at the end of the day, I don't have that much to draw upon because I don't know how much of that performance was lack of fitness and how much was lack of mental toughness. |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by ligersandtions Thanks for your thoughts, Chris, Ben, and Jason. I'll try to consolidate my response here.... As for the threshold work being challenging -- I just recently retested my FTP and it bumped up almost 20W, so even though "technically" I should be able to do 60 minutes at that power, I'm findingit to be incredibly difficult. Not to mention, it seems to have landed in a place that's right between gears, so I'm either grinding (mid-80's) or spinning like crazy (low-100's), which are not conducive to me actually convincing myself to gut it out for 10/20/45/etc minutes. You're absolutely right in that this is probably not a (good) reason to not do it... Also, mentally, doing shorter intervals, or long intervals that occasionally bump up and down help break up the monotony of it and allow me to stay focused. Again, probably not a good reason to not work through a long, steady, boring interval....but sometimes I just can't muster the mental strength at 4:30am! Do you know what your gearing is in that range? That's a huge jump. For me, a 1 tooth jump is near 5 rpm and 2 tooth is near 10 rpm. You're looking at almost 20 rpm there. Not sure if this is an option, but I have the tightest cassette I could find on the trainer so that about everything is a 1 tooth jump. Also wonder if you're doing something like working in the lower end of the cassette while in the big ring. Going small ring and farther up the cassette might help keep things a bit tighter. Just speculating some ideas there. Finding the motivation can help a lot too. That's where the Sufferfest vids come in for me. Something to chase and they do move the target around during the intervals. I'll do this on my own to an extent when intervals don't fit to their vids, but it is noticeably more difficult. Although I don't try to ride that early! Is volume a concern for you? Thanks for the link, Ben. I'll take a look at it tonight when I have some more time to devote to it. Last week, I did a 15x 1min @ 120% workout....and since that didn't seem like it was quite hard enough, I did a 10x 1.5 min @ 120% a couple days later. For weekday rides, I have to keep it to about an hour, so I've been targeting 15-20 minutes of VO2max intervals....but maybe I'll try something more like 5-6 x 3min @ 110% tomorrow, and work my way up to 5 min intervals. I've also recently been struggling with long rides on the trainer. I'm not sure if it's mental (FTP feels too high, currently in off season and long trainer rides seem more like torture than for a specific goal) or physical (endurance fitness has gone to crap since I haven't been doing long rides, insufficient cooling despite an overhead fan and two box fans) or what....so until I buy the right clothes to ride outside now that it's "cold", it's so much easier for me to fall back into training for intensity over a short period of time rather than slightly lower power over longer periods. Hah, guess I'm trying to find the "easiest" way to get better :P Sounds good for the intervals. I've found 15 x 1' to be challenging if I haven't worked VO2 in awhile, but quickly become easier. From the reading, not sure working harder does any more for developing that, though it can wipe me out more. Would have to extend out the number of intervals, but doesn't sound like that's an option for you. Having a solid warm-up for these matters quite a bit for me. When you say long rides, what are you doing on them? Maybe point to a couple dates to look at if you're not sure what to say. |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Jason N Congrats on the improvement Nicole. I wouldn't worry that much about the details of your power training just yet. Once you have a "general guideline" to follow of what types of workouts you do, your training results will pretty much guide you on if you should increase/decrease the % of FTP, or increase/decrease the length of time of each interval. You can also play around with how long your recoveries are. My general plan for the start of a cycling focus is to starting with a workout and power level I know I can hold for sure. And on the last 2 intervals of a 5x5', or the last 5 minutes of a 2x15' I just empty the tank. Depending on how much over I go during the ending of the workout determines if or by how much I increase the overall goal for the next workout. Again, I make a very conservative increase I know I can hold, then I just rinse repeat over and over again until I'm near maximum and there is no tank to empty at the end of the workout. This also helps build my confidence that I can comeplete the workout next time...because a good part of this is mental. I found that for me, when I shoot for a goal that's too high, too soon, and I don't have the confidence I can complete the workout...I end up with poor performances more times than not. Sometimes I hit it out of the park, but there have been a good number of times when I give up mentally halfway through and it just kills the rest of my workout. And at the end of the day, I don't have that much to draw upon because I don't know how much of that performance was lack of fitness and how much was lack of mental toughness. Glad I'm not the only one. That's the one issue with a PM - it won't make you feel good about yourself if you're having an off day and struggling. I tell myself all the time that I need to get mentally stronger to deal with the fact my workouts won't always go as intended, because I've bailed on rides too often when I wasn't hitting the numbers. |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by brigby1 Do you know what your gearing is in that range? That's a huge jump. For me, a 1 tooth jump is near 5 rpm and 2 tooth is near 10 rpm. You're looking at almost 20 rpm there. Not sure if this is an option, but I have the tightest cassette I could find on the trainer so that about everything is a 1 tooth jump. Also wonder if you're doing something like working in the lower end of the cassette while in the big ring. Going small ring and farther up the cassette might help keep things a bit tighter. Just speculating some ideas there. Agreed on the big jump. I checked a workout I did last week where I know I shifted gears in the middle of a steady power interval. Cadence dropped from 92/93 to 85/86. I found myself often stuck in between gears at one point a few months ago and switched to a tighter cassette (11-23) at Ben's suggestion and it eliminated the jump from the 15 to 17 cog. A lot of my threshold work is in the 50x16 gear. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by ligersandtions Alright, so I'm probably annoying with my power questions, but I figure a handful of people in here are willing to talk power any chance they're given ![]() Is there a "best" (better? worse?) way to set up VO2max workouts? Would it be better to have a bunch of short (1 min?) intervals at 120% versus a few longer (5 min?) intervals at 106%? Is there an optimal amount of time to spend in the VO2max zone during a single workout? What about threshold? 2x20 @ FTP seems to be the bread and butter....but I tend to prefer something like 2-3x12 over/unders because it's more manageable physically and mentally for me. I imagine the optimal time to spend in a given zone is based on what it does for your recovery? More is better until it affects what you have planned for the next day? Is this a trial-and-error kind of thing, or is there a rule of thumb? Feel free to send me over to TP and search through articles if there's something there that I just haven't found yet.... Here's a suggestion. You seem to be very technically competent and willing to try things Download Golden Cheetah version 3 and learn to use the training tab. You can load "Erg files" and ride them. You basically "program" a series of intervals, load them up and press go. We can give you a hand with these if you are interested The GC tells you what power level you are, and what your target is. You can also download erg files for sufferfest videos and it will tell you what power level to try to hit and the power you are at. If your FTP is properly set, you should make it through a video feeling you did a good workout. But what is cool is that you load an erg and it tells you what the TSS will be if you hit the targets, BEFORE you even ride it. If it's a 1hr workout and the TSS is 80, you know it will be a solid workout. There are various sufferfest with various durations. But like I said, you can also program an erg file. So if you want to do this, step 1, download GC, install the Ant+ stick and get GC to read your power levels, learn to use the training tab. We can guide you through this is there is interest on your part or anyone else from this group. |
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