Fred D Mentor Group Part III (Page 12)

Shark and swimmer avatars telling me to get in the water! That alone is just what I needed. In true circular reference form within this thread, I may be suffering the consequences of pushing hard on the run and bike workouts, having very little left in the tank when it comes to the pool. Like others on this journey, I am seeking balance such that I can improve and enjoy all three sports...and of course, cross the finish line faster.

Chris, thanks for the advice. It is clear that I need swim more and swim harder. Easier said than done for me....'specially as the temps begin to drop. But I will try to give it a go.

With you on swimming.  Not that I don't like it.  It just seems so out of the way to get it done.  I also tell myself I can drop 20 min on the bike and run in a 70.3 still and likely only a couple of minutes in the swim unless I do a ridiculous amount of work thus not achieving the bike and run drops...too easy to rationalize.

Off topic:  Here's a nice article on an old school blue collar guy who crushed a marathon and still holds the record.  Thought I'd share:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/04/sports/phil-coppess-still-holds-twin-cities-marathon-record.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1

I read that report a couple weeks ago and it really rang home with me.  Part of why I didn't enjoy swimming (as much as running and biking) was because I wasn't seeing results.  In my mind, swimming 7-8k per week was "a lot", and if it wasn't going to show results, then why bother right?

Then I started to compare swimming to running.  If my goal is to improve my HIM swim...what is the equivalent of that to running?  Maybe a 5 mile run?  Because elites/pros in both swimming and running will do them stand alone in about 20ish minutes.

So I asked myself...if I wanted to improve my 5 mile run time, what type of running would I be doing?  Maybe 25-30 mpw?  If I was really serious about it...maybe 40-50 mpw?  So what does that look like in training time?  For me 25-30 mpw would be about 4.5-5 hours per week of running.  40-50 mpw would be 7.5-8 hours.

So if I were to train 4.5-5 hours, or 7.5-8 hours in the pool, how many yards would that be?  For me, 12-13k, or 21-23k.  Hmmm....

Now look on the flip side.  If I think that 7-8k is "a lot"...that's like 2.5-3 hours.  Compared to running, that's only 16-20 mpw for me.  Do I really think that I would make improvements to my 5 mile run time by running 16-20 mpw?  Maybe very very small gains, but likely nothing ground breaking.  So why was I expecting to drop 10 seconds per 100y by swimming that "little?"  I really don't know.  But it puts things in perspective.

I'm with ya'.....WAYYYYY to easy for me to rationalize the ROI. This is certainly part of my problem. But, are we missing how we could gain 20 minutes on the bike and run if we were simply better swimmers.... 

I'm going to frame this!  My vote for top 10 posts I've ever read.

Yup.  I know from experience I can swim 3X week at 7-9K yards (2 pool, 1 OW) and basically stay in place.  I know I can swim a 30 minute HIM on that yardage, and it never changes.  To get sub 30 I would have to add at least 1 extra day of 3K.  However, for me I see people going sub 5 and swimming slower, sometimes much slower, than a 30 minute swim.  My problem(s) lie elsewhere 

To carry Jason's post forward, I have traditionally had a hard time getting above 25 MPW without getting injured.  So 25 to me seems like "a lot."  But it's not enough for a 1:50 HIM run.

That's a really good post Jason.

I struggle with being in the water simply because I always feel like I have to "muscle" through the swim.  There is no such thing as an easy swim for me.  With running when I really push, then my HR is elevated, the breathing is labored, but the legs are still good to go. 

With the swim, my arms/lats/shoulders fall apart before the cardio piece does, and then I'm just ugly in the water, and I'm not sure I see the point to pushing myself to swim hard with crappy form. 

Carrying the food/weight/nutrition discussion on from Fred v.II, I started yesterday actually tracking calories in/out with myfitnesspal app.  It's an eye opener, all the hidden calories we take in, they start to add up to something significant.  If nothing else it's making me extremely conscious of what is going in my mouth.  If I eat too many calories for breakfast, I am going to screw up my dinner.....  If there are any calories left.  Also making me aware of what kind of calories are going in.  Cra* calories or good calories?

Has me at 1880 kcals a day for a 1 pound/week weight loss.  Obviously exercise out can increase that, so with yesterday's run and swim total in was 2800, which is a little more manageable.  But a day like today, where I am not sure I'll get any exercise in, going into a bit of panic mode as it's 1 pm and I've only got 625 calories left for the day......

Trying to balance not beng totally obsessive over it, but also taking it seriously.

double post 

Here is my theory

When I went for VO2max, LT....testing, one thing they provided was an "efficiency" chart. It basically showed how "efficient" you were at translating the energy your body produced to speed on the run or power on the bike. It was a plot of VO2 against speed or VO2 against power. The technician explained to me that most people have similar efficiency on the bike and slight differences in efficiency on the run.

But the swim is another story. You can multiply by 3 the amount of training you do and you will increase your fitness. But unless you have the technique it will not translate as much into speed. I think this is the big kicker for swimming.

Imagine a runner that goes up 20cm everytime he goes forward 1m. He is wasting a lot of energy going up.  Let's say 30% of his energy is spent going up and 70% forward. He doubles his ability to produce energy ie his power. Well he only gets 1.4x the ability to move forward faster.

I suspect the bad swimmers are wasting far more than 50% of their energy, therefore the efforts required for marginal improvements are high. Our ability to produce energy/power is increasing but not translating into speed.

That's my theory.

Exactly what I did for my HIM this year.  Enough to finish the swim fine, but no improvements in speed.

 However, for me I see people going sub 5 and swimming slower, sometimes much slower, than a 30 minute swim.  My problem(s) lie elsewhere 

True.  As you get to the pointy end, ROI naturally goes down.  But as a 39 minute HIM swimmer, I should not be using ROI as an excuse.

Commit to something like BarryP, and your commitment to get out of clydes will go a long way to bumping up your running threshold mileage.

Marc - I totally agree with that theory.  It makes perfect sense.  But as Neil mentioned, as he fatigues, his form breaks down.  I experience the same thing.

I think for someone like me, one of the keys to keeping good form is to increase fitness.  The more I can prevent myself from getting wasted, the longer my form will hold up.  When I get really tired is when my legs drop, my arms start crossing over, my kick goes from 6 beat to a wide scissor, and I'm trying to turnover quicker so I can breathe at a higher rate instead of gliding.

So I don't think the answer is very simple.  Yes, technique can be a huge limiter, but I also think improving fitness is what helps us keep what technique we have. 

Shane, I absolutely 100% agree with you.  My old coach always stressed the importance of the swim (ex college swimmer and former short distance pro).  I also, first hand experienced the difference pushing a couple of sprint swims without actual swim training and what it did to me the rest of the race as far as super high HR and lower power output.

My dilemma is the rest of my life and the time I have:

If the equation S+B+R=8hrs and B=3-4 and R=3 than I'm slacking on S big time because I think it needs to be a minimum of 3x/wk to make it worthwhile.  Focus on 70.3 in the season not short course and would obviously ramp up for 8 weeks or so prior to get a serviceable amount of fitness. 

It's a tough equation when it only equals 8hrs is I guess what I struggle with the most but your point is well taken.

Yep. Agree. But you are getting tired because you are wasting all that energy. You waste your joules, your stroke falls apart and you waste more joules at an even faster rate.The spiral of death :-)

My training block right now is stroke, stroke, stroke. Learn to bilateral breath, stop the cross over, follow the butt-up video Fred sent and other corrections. Lots of video.

I am with you.  The issue for me is that a 40 minute swim + (20 minute drive + 5 minutes to get ready + 10 minutes to shower and leave + 20 minutes home) = 1hr 35m

1:35 time investment for a 40 minute swim.  I can bike and run and cut the total admin time to 10 minutes so that becomes a 1:25 minute bike or run workout.  I enjoy swimming and really wish I could find a closer option to get more done but it is about managing ROI for me. 

I can maintain my swim with 2x week but to improve a little bit we are talking 4xwk.  That is a big time investment if you have alot going on in other areas of your life.  

ETA: I do plan to swim 3-4x wk about 8 weeks out from my 'A'events but over the winter and offseason I am going to put my time in the other 2.

I hear you.  I had the same time issues getting to the YMCA.  But I recently moved and now have a community pool a little over a mile away from home.  It's 25y, and there is usually only one lap lane, but it hardly gets used.  It's open almost 24/7.  Closed 6am-9am for cleaning...so I really have no excuse now.

I had a pool 4 houses down from me.  Pretty much always empty when I wanted to do laps.  It was awesome.  Then I moved.  Closest pool is probably Bryan's pool over in Fountain Hills now.  But I do think easy access counts for a lot.  We in theory do this for fun so if you are spending all your time driving to and from the pool or fighting for some kind of lan space it takes some of the enjoyment out.  Or say...not having access to a pool.  You all go do a swim for me please

Agreed!  Great post Jason.

Agreed, and when you feel the technique breaking down because you are fatiguing, that's the most important time to focus on your form.  It's great to have a good technique when you aren't tired but if it falls apart when you get a bit tired then it's not very effective.  When the lats and triceps are screaming, that's when you focus hard on your technique.  Learn what you have to do to keep it together when you are tired.  It will help you to be able to push yourself harder in future practices and come race day it will pay big dividends as well.

Arend, next time you are in town I'll bring you to the endless pool.

you'll love it.

Tonight I did the two best parts of tri

- A long run

- A beer post long run.