Move where? (Page 2)

GomesBolt - 2012-11-07 9:33 AM Brian-That is a simplistic response.

What can I say, I'm a simple guy...

Fact is that the best way to describe the electorate in 30 states is that the rural voters who all voted conservative are being governed by people in urban areas who have completely opposite viewpoints on social and fiscal issues. That includes Pennsylvania. Minority votes carried that state according to CNN last night.

GomesBolt - 2012-11-07 8:33 AM Brian-That is a simplistic response.

What can I say, I'm a simple guy...

Fact is that the best way to describe the electorate in 30 states is that the rural voters who all voted conservative are being governed by people in urban areas who have completely opposite viewpoints on social and fiscal issues. That includes Pennsylvania. Minority votes carried that state according to CNN last night.

crowny2 - 2012-11-07 9:58 AM

You do realize that the heavily populated areas have almost always done that.

GomesBolt - As a citizen of a country that piggybacks off of our Defense Spending, I would think you would want a strong US as well.

GomesBolt - 2012-11-07 9:03 AM

I do, but the percentages are so much more schewed. Rural 60-70% red, Urban 70-80% blue.

Am I wrong?

mrbbrad - 2012-11-07 9:53 AM

 

I did find it very interesting when I saw a graphical depiction of t PA by county. Almost all red except for the densely populated eastern counties and a couple other more "metropolitan" areas (I used quotes because who can really call Erie metropolitan?) 

trinnas - 2012-11-07 10:28 AM

That is because people in large urban areas already rely heavily on government to take care of them.

drewb8 - 2012-11-07 12:56 PM Ok, I'll bite.  I live in a large urban area.  How am I heavily relying on government to take care of me?

trinnas - 2012-11-07 11:24 AM 

What do you do with your trash?

Who keeps you safe?

How far do you live from food and gas?

Who plows your streets when it snows?

Who clears out the debris in the streets?

Who is cleaning up the mess in NY/NJ after Sandy hit?

Years ago I was watching news coverage of a storm in the north east.  There were a couple of large trees down across the streets.  One resident, talking to the news crews was upset because they couldn't get out and the city crews had not yet been there to clear the tree out of their way.  Where I used to live by 10 am those trees would have been chopped up and seasoning in somebodies wood pile.

trinnas - 2012-11-07 1:24 PM

What do you do with your trash?

Recycle/trash pick up - I pay for that

Who keeps you safe?

Philly PD - my city taxes pay for that

How far do you live from food and gas?

2 blocks - how is that related to government?

Who plows your streets when it snows?

Philly Streets Dept. - my city taxes pay for that

Who clears out the debris in the streets?

Ditto.

Who is cleaning up the mess in NY/NJ after Sandy hit?

Public, Private, and individuals.

Years ago I was watching news coverage of a storm in the north east.  There were a couple of large trees down across the streets.  One resident, talking to the news crews was upset because they couldn't get out and the city crews had not yet been there to clear the tree out of their way.  Where I used to live by 10 am those trees would have been chopped up and seasoning in somebodies wood pile.

drewb8 - 2012-11-07 1:39 PM I pay someone to come take my trash away and the town provides police to keep me safe and keeps the street clear.  The exact same way it works in rural areas.  

I think maybe a better argument would be that cities provide water and sanitation while rural residents have to have their own wells and septic tanks (not sure everyone having their own septic tank in the city is a great way to have people rely less on gov't though).  Not sure the difference in reliance is as big as some people want to believe but I see your point better now.

BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-11-07 1:43 PM

So what's you're point? Where I used to live we had a cesspool and a well. Now I don't because it's not a viable solution. Is one better than the other?

trinnas - 2012-11-07 1:46 PM

Actually believe it or not there are place where you get to haul your trash to the dump or burn it.  And your city tells people just who can and cannot collect trash but yes it is getting to be a more privatized service.

The cops are 20+ minutes away so they can come take your report but you better be able to protect yourself for those 20 minutes. 

The only people that protect your house against fire are a bunch of community volunteers (I used to be one of those).

I agree that a big reason for the difference is that is makes sense, we cannot all have our own wells and septic tanks.  We cannot all try to take our trash to the dump and a lot of other day to day things that people take for granted until they have to live without.  It is often not the big things that change people but the little subtle things that they never even notice.

BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-11-07 1:56 PM

I still am not sure what point you are trying to make. That city people are more dependent on government than rural people? I can agree with that. We pay more taxes too. I pay city wage tax and an extra 2% sales tax (supposed to drop to 1% in 2014, but I'm not holding my breath), so it's not like it's free. 

You really think it's much different with the cops in the city? We had someone broken into on our street, and I found out through my neighbors trying to make sure that whoever is home during the day keeps watch for strange cars in our little alley behind the homes.

BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-11-07 1:56 PM

I still am not sure what point you are trying to make. That city people are more dependent on government than rural people? I can agree with that. We pay more taxes too. I pay city wage tax and an extra 2% sales tax (supposed to drop to 1% in 2014, but I'm not holding my breath), so it's not like it's free. 

You really think it's much different with the cops in the city? We had someone broken into on our street, and I found out through my neighbors trying to make sure that whoever is home during the day keeps watch for strange cars in our little alley behind the homes.

TriRSquared - 2012-11-07 1:03 PM

The point is that people who live in large cities rely on these things.  It's not that you pay for them.  You do.  It's that you expect them to be there.  Imagine a Philly or NYC without city based trash removal where people had to drive to the dump.  It would be a mess.

People who live in rural areas tend to do so because they do not want to be beholden to the rules and regulations required in a city.  There tends to be "less government" in the rural areas.

Large cities also tend to have larger populations of minorities and people in the lower income brackets.  These are traditional Democratic voters.

Look at FL.  Most of it is red except for Tampa/Orlando/Miami/Tallahassee and Gainesville (where UF is located).  The college vote usually goes liberal as well.

tuwood - 2012-11-07 12:13 PM 

That reminds me of our neighborhood.  We're outside of the Omaha city limits but we live in a suburban neighborhood that's every bit attached to the city.  Every year there's talk about Omaha annexing us and everyone goes postal.  One of the biggest complaints is that we wouldn't be able to pick our garbage provider.  There are 4 different companies that all have different trash days and different types of bins.  People like to choose what day and what type of bin's they get.  We have 2 trash bins, a recycle bin, and two yard waste bins.  There have been days when I forgot to put the garbage out and the trash dudes come up to my house and bring the bins down to the curb.  With competition there is customer service.  If we are annexed then I have to use metal trashcans, I don't get to pick my trash day, and the union city trash dude wouldn't grab my trash if it were 6 inches too far off the curb.

Also, we as a neighborhood choose and pay for a snow plow company.  Our roads are awesome in the winter.  City roads... yeah we'll get to you in a couple days.

I know, I know, first world problems but it's a silly example of people like me wanting to make our own choices.

drewb8 - 2012-11-07 1:32 PM Funny, over the summer we moved to an area where we have to choose and pay for trash collection and I find it ridiculous.  Instead of having one truck come around to every house we have trucks from 6+ companies running around the neighborhood at all times of day, a lot of times just stopping at one or two houses on all different days of the week.  I couldn't care less about what day they pick up my trash so it just seems so inefficient it doesn't make sense to me.  Different strokes I guess.

kevin_trapp - 2012-11-07 1:44 PM

All I can say is that alley dumpsters are the greatest.  As soon as the kitchen trash is full, it goes to the dumpster.  The City will empty it whenever, what do I care.  The thought of rolling a trashcan out every Thursday morning before 6:30 or risk having to store my trash until the following week (like my previous house) has no appeal to me.

But back on topic, I'm not following how any city services relate to a presidential election.

kevin_trapp - 2012-11-07 2:44 PM

All I can say is that alley dumpsters are the greatest.  As soon as the kitchen trash is full, it goes to the dumpster.  The City will empty it whenever, what do I care.  The thought of rolling a trashcan out every Thursday morning before 6:30 or risk having to store my trash until the following week (like my previous house) has no appeal to me.

But back on topic, I'm not following how any city services relate to a presidential election.

trinnas - 2012-11-07 2:01 PM

If you will look back at what I was responding to, yes that is exactly my point.  I said nothing about it being free or even a good value though, it really is much more economically feasible in an urban area for this to be the case.

TriRSquared - 2012-11-07 2:03 PM

The point is that people who live in large cities rely on these things.  It's not that you pay for them.  You do.  It's that you expect them to be there.  Imagine a Philly or NYC without city based trash removal where people had to drive to the dump.  It would be a mess.

People who live in rural areas tend to do so because they do not want to be beholden to the rules and regulations required in a city.  There tends to be "less government" in the rural areas.

Large cities also tend to have larger populations of minorities and people in the lower income brackets.  These are traditional Democratic voters.

Look at FL.  Most of it is red except for Tampa/Orlando/Miami/Tallahassee and Gainesville (where UF is located).  The college vote usually goes liberal as well.

trinnas - 2012-11-07 12:50 PM

It is about the amount of government in ones life and the willingness to accept that.  Urban people are used to government running their lives in a myriad of different ways, rural people are not.