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Effect of Strength Training (Page 2)
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 2009-08-28 3:33 PM in reply to: #2376677 |
Regular  96  Plainfield, IL |  Subject: RE: Effect of Strength TrainingHave totally cut lifting since first week of June. Mainly due to time, I am going to try and add it in again at 4x's per week splitting it up as: Abs twice a week.
This is coming from somebody who only weight liftted up until this July Since I have found a new Love... |
| 2009-08-28 3:38 PM in reply to: #2376862 |
| Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training Daremo - 2009-08-28 3:00 PM Last I checked, running was one of (if not the) best exercise for the glutes. How did you figure out that you suddenly have a weak core and glutes? I honestly want to know. Slight hijack, just cuz I have a question for Rick - while it's true that running is great for your glutes, isn't that only really true if you have good form? I know that your glutes are going to fire somewhat no matter what, because it's required for the actual mechanics of running, but wouldn't sloppy (or not great) form mess with this a bit? This has nothing to do with Meh's claims and what I think about them - I know crap about body building and she knows her body better than I do - though I do understand how she feels about being less strong in certain areas. My core is definitely weaker than it was back when I danced and it does make a difference in how I carry myself, how much sitting all day hurts, etc. Running/swimming alone has not kept it strong like dancing did (and we did ab work as part of class). So there's my little plug for, if you're a newb and you're going to do ANYTHING, do some basic corework. Just my opinion, take it or leave it. |
| 2009-08-28 3:48 PM in reply to: #2377089 |
Champion 34263   Chicago | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training Daremo - 2009-08-28 3:27 PM mr2tony - 2009-08-28 4:05 PM Anyway, I disagree that strength training isn't beneficial. I contend that it will prevent injuries. If not, why do personal trainers recommend, every time I hurt something, that I `strengthen the (insert muscle)' ... so had I strengthened said muscle before, perhaps I wouldn't have injured it??? It is your every choice and right to believe that. And since it is physically impossible to prove or disprove people can argue it until they are blue in the face. That is why so many people say that it prevents injuries. Because there is no way to disprove it (just like there is no proof on the other side). In other words, how can you prove something does or not help prevent an injury that hasn't even happened yet?? It is easy to say after the fact "Oh, if you had done X this wouldn't have happened" even if there is no real correlation. It's also pretty much impossible to prove that stretching prevents injuries. Or that foam rolling prevents ITB issues. Or that time in the saddle makes you faster on the bike. Or that intervals actually make you quicker. Really, can you prove or disprove anything? In this case, though, I'm going to listen to my physical therapist, the person trained to fix me when I break. My pyraformus problems have subsided considerably with her help, as have my hamstring issues. That's proof enough for me. Edited by mr2tony 2009-08-28 3:49 PM |
| 2009-08-28 3:53 PM in reply to: #2377153 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training mr2tony - 2009-08-28 3:48 PM Daremo - 2009-08-28 3:27 PM It's also pretty much impossible to prove that stretching prevents injuries. Or that foam rolling prevents ITB issues. Or that time in the saddle makes you faster on the bike. Or that intervals actually make you quicker. Really, can you prove or disprove anything? In this case, though, I'm going to listen to my physical therapist, the person trained to fix me when I break. My pyraformus problems have subsided considerably with her help, as have my hamstring issues. That's proof enough for me.mr2tony - 2009-08-28 4:05 PM Anyway, I disagree that strength training isn't beneficial. I contend that it will prevent injuries. If not, why do personal trainers recommend, every time I hurt something, that I `strengthen the (insert muscle)' ... so had I strengthened said muscle before, perhaps I wouldn't have injured it??? It is your every choice and right to believe that. And since it is physically impossible to prove or disprove people can argue it until they are blue in the face. That is why so many people say that it prevents injuries. Because there is no way to disprove it (just like there is no proof on the other side). In other words, how can you prove something does or not help prevent an injury that hasn't even happened yet?? It is easy to say after the fact "Oh, if you had done X this wouldn't have happened" even if there is no real correlation. Ah, the sorry state of journalism today. Of course things can be proven, and disproved. I would bet good money you can find well-defined scientific studies that conclusively show a correlation between and cycling performance, and between properly executed interval training and performance. I'd further wager that if Jorge wasn't entertaining his parents in Baws-tun he'd be rattling off those studies fast enough to make both sets of your goggle spin. Edited by the bear 2009-08-28 3:57 PM |
| 2009-08-28 3:54 PM in reply to: #2377153 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training mr2tony - 2009-08-28 5:48 PM It's also pretty much impossible to prove that stretching prevents injuries. Or that foam rolling prevents ITB issues. Or that time in the saddle makes you faster on the bike. Or that intervals actually make you quicker. Really, can you prove or disprove anything? In this case, though, I'm going to listen to my physical therapist, the person trained to fix me when I break. My pyraformus problems have subsided considerably with her help, as have my hamstring issues. That's proof enough for me. Both of the bolded items can (have) been proven. Shane |
| 2009-08-28 4:06 PM in reply to: #2377169 |
Champion 34263 Chicago | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training gsmacleod - 2009-08-28 3:54 PM mr2tony - 2009-08-28 5:48 PM It's also pretty much impossible to prove that stretching prevents injuries. Or that foam rolling prevents ITB issues. Or that time in the saddle makes you faster on the bike. Or that intervals actually make you quicker. Really, can you prove or disprove anything? In this case, though, I'm going to listen to my physical therapist, the person trained to fix me when I break. My pyraformus problems have subsided considerably with her help, as have my hamstring issues. That's proof enough for me. Both of the bolded items can (have) been proven. Shane Show me. I want something good, not something from `Bicycling Magazine' ... |
| 2009-08-28 4:09 PM in reply to: #2377163 |
Champion 34263 Chicago | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training the bear - 2009-08-28 3:53 PM mr2tony - 2009-08-28 3:48 PM Daremo - 2009-08-28 3:27 PM It's also pretty much impossible to prove that stretching prevents injuries. Or that foam rolling prevents ITB issues. Or that time in the saddle makes you faster on the bike. Or that intervals actually make you quicker. Really, can you prove or disprove anything? In this case, though, I'm going to listen to my physical therapist, the person trained to fix me when I break. My pyraformus problems have subsided considerably with her help, as have my hamstring issues. That's proof enough for me.mr2tony - 2009-08-28 4:05 PM Anyway, I disagree that strength training isn't beneficial. I contend that it will prevent injuries. If not, why do personal trainers recommend, every time I hurt something, that I `strengthen the (insert muscle)' ... so had I strengthened said muscle before, perhaps I wouldn't have injured it??? It is your every choice and right to believe that. And since it is physically impossible to prove or disprove people can argue it until they are blue in the face. That is why so many people say that it prevents injuries. Because there is no way to disprove it (just like there is no proof on the other side). In other words, how can you prove something does or not help prevent an injury that hasn't even happened yet?? It is easy to say after the fact "Oh, if you had done X this wouldn't have happened" even if there is no real correlation. Ah, the sorry state of journalism today. Of course things can be proven, and disproved. I would bet good money you can find well-defined scientific studies that conclusively show a correlation between and cycling performance, and between properly executed interval training and performance. I'd further wager that if Jorge wasn't entertaining his parents in Baws-tun he'd be rattling off those studies fast enough to make both sets of your goggle spin. Yes Jorge and I have traded studies on numerous occasions. I could find just as many that show that time in the saddle doesn't make you as fast as natural ability. And I could also find studies that prove that interval training does more harm than good. Studies are all over -- it's just who you choose to believe. |
| 2009-08-28 4:26 PM in reply to: #2377089 |
Champion 8936  | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training Daremo - 2009-08-28 3:27 PM In other words, how can you prove something does or not help prevent an injury that hasn't even happened yet?? It is easy to say after the fact "Oh, if you had done X this wouldn't have happened" even if there is no real correlation. There's very little you can prove in this world on any subject. What you would be looking for a is strong objective evidence that there is a causative relationship between two things. That is best accomplished by randomized prospective trials with adequate control groups. Those studies don't exist for this subject to my knowledge, but it doesn't mean that you can't prove that there is or isn't a relationship. Sure you can. Just hasn't been done. |
| 2009-08-28 4:32 PM in reply to: #2376677 |
Champion 34263 Chicago | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training My point is that nothing is proveable. It's all cause and effect, supply and demand, etc. etc. etc. You show me a study that says one thing and I'll show you one that says the opposite. But I'm sure my PT has at least something on which she bases her treatment, and for me it works. Sometimes, Daremo, you just gotta believe! |
| 2009-08-28 4:46 PM in reply to: #2377240 |
Member 313 Ventura County, California | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training mr2tony - 2009-08-28 2:32 Sometimes, Daremo, you just gotta believe! You only need to believe in yourself. You know what works for you and that's all that matters. I do some strength training (leg extensions) to address a knee alignment issue and I know it works. As for strength training for speed, I just read a great article that touches on many of the complexities being argued here. This is no final verdict, but an interesting treatment of the issue with some limited studies.... http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/strength-training-and-leg-exercises-for-cyclists |
| 2009-08-28 4:55 PM in reply to: #2377198 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training mr2tony - 2009-08-28 6:06 PM Show me. I want something good, not something from `Bicycling Magazine' ... No problem; here's one that deals with the effect of high intensity intervals in highly trained cyclists: http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=1996&issue=11000&article=00013&type=abstract. And just for fun: http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=1999&issue=06000&article=00018&type=abstract. Shane |
| 2009-08-28 5:17 PM in reply to: #2377248 |
Expert 1123 Falls Church, VA | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training TaylorB - 2009-08-28 5:46 PM mr2tony - 2009-08-28 2:32 Sometimes, Daremo, you just gotta believe! You only need to believe in yourself. You know what works for you and that's all that matters. I do some strength training (leg extensions) to address a knee alignment issue and I know it works. As for strength training for speed, I just read a great article that touches on many of the complexities being argued here. This is no final verdict, but an interesting treatment of the issue with some limited studies.... http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/strength-training-and-leg-exercises-for-cyclists interesting article.. but I wonder if he knows that HIT is also a weight training method, so I wasn't sure what exactly that was without clicking the link. |
| 2009-08-28 5:28 PM in reply to: #2376677 |
Champion 6046 New York, NY | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training No there is no definitive proof that you cannot prevent injuries with strength training - but it stands to reason that keeping muscles balanced is a good thing. How can you expect a muscle to get stronger and give you more explosive power if you only s/b/r? I don't do much weight training per se during the season, but I do still strength train (some of that is core, some plyometrics....) I am a big believer in strength training and periodization - I think the former soviet union has plenty of data to back up the effectiveness. As someone who in HS and college athletics was plagued by injury when I ONLY did my sport (s) I am happy to say that after almost 3 years of training in s/b/r I have stayed injury free. I am SURE for me that is from strength training. Additionally, since MANY people on this site are doing triathlons for weight loss, I assume they want to lose fat not muscle - strength training is a great addition for that purpose. For me, turing 47 on Sunday, strength training helps ameliorate the natural lean body mass loss that happens with aging. Edited by TriToy 2009-08-28 5:55 PM |
| 2009-08-28 5:35 PM in reply to: #2377282 |
Elite 4048 Gilbert, Az. | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training TriToy - 2009-08-28 3:28 PM How can you expect a muscle to get stronger and give you more explosive power if you only s/b/r? Why would you need explosive power in a triathlon? I don't do much weight training per se during the season, but I do still strength train (some of that is core, some plyometrics....) I am a big believer in strength training and periodization - I think the former soviet union has plenty of data to back up the effectiveness. Communist bloc countries of the soviet era have admitted to doping too, maybe we should try that? As someone who in HS and college athletics was plagued by injury when I ONLY did my sport (s) I am happy to say that after almost 3 years of training in s/b/r I have stayed injury free. I am SURE for me that is from strength training. And I've had 4 injuries in 37 years. I don't weight train. Does my 37 cancel out your 3? (10 years injury free at the moment) Additionally, since MANY people on this site are doing triathlons for weight loss, I assume they want to lose fast not muscle - strength training is a great addition for that purpose. Truer words were never spoken. For me, turing 47 on Sunday, strength training helps ameliorate the natural lean body mass loss that happens with aging. That is the first sensible reason for weight supplementing that I've heard yet on this thread. John |
| 2009-08-28 5:38 PM in reply to: #2376677 |
Master 2158 | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training A quick thought about "proved" "cause and effect" and "correlation" Most studies don't prove anything. They also don't show cause and effect. Scientific studies mostly work on the idea of comparing an independent variable to a dependent variable. If the reaction of the dependent variable to changes in the independent variable are highly correlated, we consider it a cause and effect. However, most natural systems are very complex, and most studies are doing there best to look at one or a few variables. Then of course, we could argue about the value of statistical methods and the strength of a study based on its methodology. Not to mention that anecdotal evidence is rarely considered a strong scientifically, but we use it as the source of many of our plans and ideas anyway. That being said, I would love to see studies that say "natural talent" is more important than consistent training in just about any discipline. Not to mention I think that weight lifting should be better defined. I can and do believe that regular core exercises are an important part of training, both for increased performance and injury prevention. Is that what you mean by strength exercise? Pull downs, squats, lunges and push away exercises can all be beneficial for endurance athletes. That being said, I think that we would probably all agree that there is a point after which muscle mass can have a detrimental effect on endurance performance, as you gotta drag that weight around with you. What do you think. |
| 2009-08-28 5:58 PM in reply to: #2377290 |
Champion 6046 New York, NY | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training tkd.teacher - 2009-08-28 6:35 PM Why would you need explosive power in a triathlon? well I would like to continue to INCREASE my wattage not just have it hold steady, be able to accelerate when I need to including passing people. Additionally, since MANY people on this site are doing triathlons for weight loss, I assume they want to lose fast not muscle - strength training is a great addition for that purpose. Truer words were never spoken. touche For me, turing 47 on Sunday, strength training helps ameliorate the natural lean body mass loss that happens with aging. That is the first sensible reason for weight supplementing that I've heard yet on this thread. John well I don't think I am the only one on the thread aging.... |
| 2009-08-28 6:03 PM in reply to: #2377293 |
Member 313 Ventura County, California | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training eliwashere - 2009-08-28 3:38 PM A That being said, I think that we would probably all agree that there is a point after which muscle mass can have a detrimental effect on endurance performance, as you gotta drag that weight around with you. There it is right there. What/where is that balance point? and is it best attained with some strength-training or not? That's the discussion. I agree with your other points that there are so many variables in our natural abilities, genetic gifts, muscle make-up (fast/slow twitch), mental attitudes, time comittments, etc. etc. The answer is going to be different for each of us. |
| 2009-08-28 6:09 PM in reply to: #2376677 |
Master 1472 | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training In my studies, the more I ride the faster I get. The more I run, the faster I get and yes, the more I swim the faster I get. All without the use of strength training. Along the way I have also lost 50+ pounds. Injuries? Nope. I don't enjoy strength training, it is mind numbingly boring to me. Worse than treadmill and trainer work and I despise those. Bottom line... everyone's studies and opinions don't matter much. If you enjoy it, do it. If you don't, well then don't. |
| 2009-08-28 6:11 PM in reply to: #2377307 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training TriToy - well I would like to continue to INCREASE my wattage not just have it hold steady, be able to accelerate when I need to including passing people. what's your power/weight ratio? I can guarantee I could help you increase it without touching one single weight, yes you would do plenty of strenght specific training but no need for weights and all because as you already know endurance sports are all about power and not strenght. The demands of pushing your 2 min max power (to pass someone) are minimal when compared to the strenght you need to do a maximal squat, not to mention if you are deeping into your 2 min max power for anything over a sprint you probably would benefit from learning how to use power to pace better. Power is the ability to do work over time... |
| 2009-08-28 6:15 PM in reply to: #2377307 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training TriToy - 2009-08-28 7:58 PM tkd.teacher - 2009-08-28 6:35 PM Why would you need explosive power in a triathlon? well I would like to continue to INCREASE my wattage not just have it hold steady, be able to accelerate when I need to including passing people. You can increase your wattage without increasing your explosive power; unless you are doing draft legal events explosive power (5 sec, 30 sec and maybe 60 sec power) is not very important to triathletes. ETA - or what Jorge said. Shane Edited by gsmacleod 2009-08-28 6:16 PM |
| 2009-08-28 6:20 PM in reply to: #2377036 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training mr2tony - 2009-08-28 3:05 PM If you like to strength train then strength train. Don't let anybody tell you that you shouldn't do something you enjoy because they think it's a waste of time. I'd say that 25 percent of your time on strength is a bit excessive. I'm down to maybe one or two lifting sessions a week, which sucks, but I just don't have the time (nor the heart) to put in another two or three hours a week at the gym. how exactly does lifting one or two times x week benefits you? please be concise and don't throw anecdotal evidence.mr2tony - 2009-08-28 3:05 PM Anyway, I disagree that strength training isn't beneficial. I contend that it will prevent injuries. If not, why do personal trainers recommend, every time I hurt something, that I `strengthen the (insert muscle)' ... so had I strengthened said muscle before, perhaps I wouldn't have injured it??? So you based this conlcusion anecodotal evidence only? uummm okeeeyyy. It is simple not as conlusive as one would like it to believe, in fact most injuries for endurance athletes are because of poor training and lot because of muscles imbalances or lack of strenght as you want to believe. I can given you examples of many of my athletes who do not weight lift at all yet they have been injury free, how would that be possible? |
| 2009-08-28 6:37 PM in reply to: #2376677 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training I do a 1-2 x per week some light upper body sets with free weights as well as core, lower back, some lunges and squats. As a soon to be 41 year old male, I do it prevent muscle mass loss as I age, not to make me a better triathlete. |
| 2009-08-28 6:43 PM in reply to: #2377353 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training bryancd - 2009-08-28 7:37 PM I do a 1-2 x per week some light upper body sets with free weights as well as core, lower back, some lunges and squats. As a soon to be 41 year old male, I do it prevent muscle mass loss as I age, not to make me a better triathlete. Very legitimate reason! See my early post ......... if you like to do it and it feels good to you, have at it! At least you have come to the same conclusion that I have ..... it won't make you faster. Some of my workouts might though.  Beer anyone? I picked up my first case of Sam Octoberfest today!! Best ......... Seasonal .......... Beer ......... Ever!!! |
| 2009-08-28 6:48 PM in reply to: #2376677 |
Expert 697 Northern CA | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training When I started weight training, my run got faster even though I also started running less (hurt my knee in a bike fall and had to take it easy for a while). I'm a big believer in it, particularly if you are also losing weight, while training. |
| 2009-08-28 6:56 PM in reply to: #2377364 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Effect of Strength Training MacMadame - 2009-08-28 7:48 PM When I started weight training, my run got faster even though I also started running less (hurt my knee in a bike fall and had to take it easy for a while). I'm a big believer in it, particularly if you are also losing weight, while training. Weight loss contributed to running faster. And since weight training is a successful factor in assisting to lose weight, in that case weights may have helped to a more successful run. Edited by Daremo 2009-08-28 6:57 PM |
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