First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles???? (Page 2)

I like this.
And I believe this is the approach my coach is taking with me this year. Stay tuned, I guess

BT posts need like buttons!  LIKE!!!  LIKE!!!

Can you clarify why you say this? Is it because the 6:30-7:00 bike split implies too little bike training or is there another reason? What is someone is well trained and just takes is very easy on the bike to save their legs for the run? Or are you arguing that the total duration (7hrs + swim time) makes it such that you will be walking part of the run simply because you have been plugging away for so long? Just curious.

If you understand TSS on bike you can apply same concept to the run in IM. Also consider the cumulative total TSS for the whole IM.

If you want to accrue 280 TSS on the bike in IM and you are pro finishing in 4:45 or top AG finishing in 5:15 or BOP finishing in 7:00, how you can get to 280 TSS is different. TSS is training stress score...with 100 equal to 1 hour at  your FTP. Faster folks can ride at higher IF (intensity factor which is NP/FTP) than a slower person to end up with 280 TSS.

This concept isn't discussed much in running but I believe the same principal applies.

Can someone with VDot of 40 vs.another athlete with  VDot of 55 if they execute a good IM run per the chart are running at same % of FT even though the 40 VDot athlete is out on the course an hour longer than 55 VDot athlete. Their TSS would be much higher for the 40 compared to the 55. I think it would be much harder for the 40 VDot athlete to hit that 80% FT ideal IM run.

Personal Best Nutrition has the same chart with VDots from 30 and above.

I think in a general sense the slower athletes have to be out there longer which over time fatigues them as they can rack up more TSS overall. Not that they aren't trained well but the difference between someone who has an awesome day and finishes in 10 hours and another who's awesome day is 14 hours....overall TSS is higher for slower athlete so they over time are more like to run out of gas as hard to build up enough endurance.

Race day execution is key maybe even more so for slower athletes as having to high a TSS on the bike due to spiking power on hills or riding to hard, can negatively effect in great way their run. I'm not fast but I do enjoy the challenge of executing my long races to the best of my proven abilities.

I have learned the hard way of riding to hard on the hills, spiking my power in part to poor riding but mostly due to wrong gearing, and pushing my TSS way to high on the bike to end up walking most of the IM run. If I end up doing IMLP this year my goal on the bike is to keep my VI down so my TSS will be significantly lower.

I am a slow runner, and I battle chronic injuries on and off.  

My longest run before IMWI was 13.1 miles. (I ran a couple half marathons)

I finished IMWI without issue, but, like Lisa, I walked a lot of the run. Actually more than the last 6 miles.

This time around I'm going to plan my long run for 18 miles. It's going to be a run/walk, and it will probably take me 4 hours. If I keep it easy enough, I will be able to recover afterwards, and not sacrifice training days to do it. There's something about being out there on my feet that I just need to *do* in preparation for these events. The run just ends up taking SO. LONG. It's more mental for me than anything at this point.

Why?  What don't you understand or what is it in your plan that you are questioning?

I am going to keep following my plan (Be Iron Fit) but I feel just confused.  Carry on, I am just hungry.

I'm asking because I don't want you to be confused.  IM training is pretty simple at it's core, but can easily become very confusing as you get into the details.  But I (or others) can't help if we don't know what your questions are.  What seems confusing?  What are you concerned about?

I've learned, thru trial and error, being coached, self coaching, having my friends coach me, and just paying attention to my body, that for me, the run is about picking a realistic pace (for me) and training it. Drilling it in. It has to be easy enough to allow me to recover so I can do the next run, but fast enough to get me where I want to go within my goal time.

A little bit of soreness and fatigue is OK. The inability to put pants on because of swollen knees and limited ROM is not OK.

When I'm running now, my main thought is how I'm feeling... and how well I'll recover. I run with my next run in mind. Or my next workout in mind.

For me, it's going to be imperative to select a pace I can maintain. At least mostly. In the end, you know, it's not how fast you go... it's really more about how little you slow down...

This thread makes me happy.  Bunch of respectful conversation, people being unafraid to really think about training methodology, a collection of people with IM finish times all over the place (i.e., some really fast people, and self-professed slow people, who have taken training very seriously) taking time to share their experience.

If I ever take another crack at IM, I believe 70+ mile run weeks will be part of that plan.  Not in the 4-5 months immediately preceeding the taper, but in a run focused program immediately preceding that.  That way during IM-specific prep I'll be able to *reduce my mileage to 50ish mpw* and throw in a tiny bit of run speedwork, and have time for quality bike training.  And if Fred keeps on me enough, maybe I'll even plan to swim a few laps too

For my first and only IM (Lake Placid), I built to 50-ish mpw running while IM training... and it wasn't easy.  It also cost me some in terms of time for training in other disciplines, especially the swim (it was just not feasible to build all 3 sports with the focus I would have liked, so I proiritized run first, bike second, swim distant third). 

That approach turned into a 10:20 IM and a 3:32 run.  I think that for me, if I could come DOWN to 50 mpw instead of building to it, it would allow me to do a bit more on the run in terms of intensity, as well as focus on the bike/swim more than I was able to last time when I was preoccupied with nailing the marathon first.  I predict that would equal faster swim, faster faster bike, and faster run.  It would allow me to focus on swim/bike, while in a run maintenance mode that exceeded what 90% of IMers do.

I think this is a very interesting discussion and thanks to everyone for their insights. One of the reasons I am fascinated is in part the theoretical "how do you have a good IM run" but the other part is my very limited experience. I did my first and only IM in November. I deliverately took it very easy on the bike (HR in low to mid zone 2, for whatever that is worth- I think my time was 6:15 ish). I wanted to give myself every chance to run the marry, but appreciate what you guys have said regardling the cumulative time "exercising" by the time you start the run. Like many others, the first half of the run was fine (felt tired but in control and OK to continue running). Then I got hurt- intense pain in some random ligament high in my calf that radiated pain into my knee. I progressed with every step and I ended out having to do a mix of fast walking and some "run until I can't bear the pain anymore" )= 20 steps or so), then walk 20 steps, then run 20, etc. It was frustrating and resulted in my second half of the marathon being 3 hrs (first half was in 2:05 and I was not needing to walk from fatigue). 

So my question has always been whether I would have been able to run the rest of the way had this not happened. I guess happens in the course of a long day like that. The ligament never hurt in training and only ever hurt once before (during my first HIM!). A friend suggested I probably needed more long runs in prep (I did 5 runs over 15 miles in training, including 3X18 milers and lots of other medium-distance runs) to strengthen ligaments, etc. I think if I ever did another IM, I might have more long runs built in (not 20 miles, but maybe 10 or so 15ish mile runs). I frankly have no idea but a lot of this thread is fueling some interesting internal debate :-)