Wife asked an interesting question... (Page 2)

So every Sunday you are swimming 2k, biking 40 mile and running 7 miles? 

If you are doing them at race intensity, then you are shooting yourself in the foot when you could be using that time to actually build fatigue resistance vs 'wasting' it on just getting mileage in.  That's like the runner who does a 13 mile run every Sunday to get ready for a Half Mary.  You never get any faster.

A race simulation for a HIM should happen a couple of times max and look something like this:

Saturday:
20 miles at an easy effort (Z2/.75 CP)
3 x 10 miles as:
7 miles at a hard effort (Z4/.9 CP)
3 miles easy effort (Z2/.75 CP)

Then do a 3-4 mile negative split run with the out being SUPER easy and the home being at HIM effort/pace.

Sunday:
30 min swim OWS with the back half being at race effort
right into an 8 mile HIM effort/pace run

NOTE:  The above is for my style of coaching which is not the old school and out-dated "just go out and go easy stuff".  So take that into account.  aka YMMV

this type of day was discussed a lot last summer - i think it was in one of the magazines called the 'Big Day' or something like that.   I did not do that.  I didn't think it would be all that useful and the logistics would be too annoying.

In the lead up to my IM - my longest days were probably the HIM i did at 6:10 and the 7 hour bike to do the full bike distance another day. The training plan did did call for a brick run afterward but my IT band was achy so i skipped it and still had a solid IM. 

For those of you curious about the "big day", here's the article from Joe Friel: http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2010/04/ironman-big-day.html

IMO - it can be beneficial for someone who's struggling mentally with the idea of an Ironman. It can be a huge confidence booster - but the needed recovery is significant, and the workout isn't necessary.

Thanks.  I don't go at race intensity but this is really good food for thought as I tune my training for the final 10 weeks.  On your side comment, I do a 13 mile long run weekly, but  I do it at a backed off pace (yet still challenging) and mostly because I love that run distance.  Speed work is where I've been finding my speed up comes from, though at this point with HIM training I'm less concerned about speed and more about volume.

I've done "big weekends" (rather than "big days") like this - for me this happens 3 weeks out from the race and is the peak. Taper from here on out.

Saturday: 3000-4000yd OWS + 112 mile bike (brick)
Sunday: 2.5-hour run 

This "big day" thing seems scary to me.  Glad I didn't hear that before I trained for mine.

The swim is easily 15 min-45 min longer than my IM swim.  The bike is about 112 mile - the run is a bit "short" for actual IM run though.

So BASICALLY, this is doing an IM to train for an IM.  Considering that it takes me a week to recover from an IM, the idea of a "big day" seems bad, bad, bad to me.  I would rather train through the week rather than try and knock out a simulated IM just to need to recover for 4-7 days.

I used the tune up race - for me its  hard to simulate the nerves that go with the swim start. Though for IM training is a long time and over 6 months and usually with changing weather - and hopefully nutrition is being tested throughout.

These 2.5hr runs that people keep mentioning seem like they would really take a toll on the body.  Is it really that necessary?

Good discussion by the way.  One of the best in Tri Talk for a while.

For me, yes. I can't speak for others.
Last IM training I did two 2.5hr runs and a 3hr run... dramatically improved my run time in the race as compared to the year before when I only did one 2.5hr run. Again, just me. 

I did a big day leading up to IM Arizona last year.  For me, a big day was a Metric Ironman, meaning about 2400 meter swim, 112k bike, and 26k run.  I did take breaks in between but not the 90 minutes suggested in the book.  This was a good confidence builder, some good things learned about nutrition, and at that part of my buildup did not require too much recovery.  I did it on a Saturday, took Sunday off, and did not swim until Monday evening. I did the day at or slightly below race pace.

My longest bike ride was a 7 hour, 105 mile ride with 8k in climbing.  I did several days of 95-100 miles on terrain more similar to the Arizona course.

Now, how did this translate to race day?  I think I still had more to learn about nutrition. I needed even more bike fitness. I don't think I ate enough on the bike.  Neither the Big Day nor the long bike rides got me really prepared for about the 9-10 hour mark of race day.  That is when I started to struggle.    For me, the struggle was not about run fitness.  I started to struggle at about mile 11 of the run, and I had run over 11 miles dozens of times in training.  I think this was about bike fitness and nutrition.  I felt pretty good coming off the bike and for the first 75-85 minutes of the run, but after that it came crashing down pretty quickly.  I finished in 13:19 and had a goal of under 13.

So, what did I learn about Big Days, long days and nutrition for my next effort?  For me, I don't think you can spend too much time on the bike.  Of course, you need to build up to it, but i my next go (IM Texas 2014), I'll do multiple 8+ hour days on the bike.  Not multiple as in 6-7, but multiple as in 2-3.  Plus, more 100+ mile days.  I'll focus less on building up my long run.  I was really focused on building my long run up to 20 miles.  I didn't make it because I got hurt, so I think too much focus on long runs.  Next time, I'll build up to a long run of 18, but focus more on getting a few more in the 15 mile range, but not so focused on those last miles to get to 20.  For me, the second half of the marathon was not about run fitness, but about pacing, nutrition, bike fitness.

I think a Big Day can have a place in the training up to an Ironman.  But I think one has to think about what the goals are for your longest day of training.  Pacing, nutrition, fitness, mental strength are all things to be addressed in training.  Recovery, consistency, and injury risk are factors to consider in deciding what the longest day of training will be.

Now, take that for what its worth.  I am not a coach, and have done a grand total of one Ironman.

Why???  It's not going to hurt you (besides your a$$/taint/nether regions) but I'm not seeing how it's going to help you much either.  Slogging along at very low zone 1 for eight hours will do next to absolutely nothing for you from a fitness perspective.  You'd be better off riding for 4-6 hours and using that other 2-4 hours recovering, sleeping, getting a massage, etc.  Seriously.

7 hour day,,,,,,,,, I barely do that in a week!

Kido, never having done an IM when you do your long bike as you mentioned with a possible run after how do the days before and after that look. I mean to you build so you are somewhat fatigued before the long ride or do you take it easy? Same question for the day after.....

To the OP good luck with your IM and the training!!

That's going to be highly individual and highly dependent on targeted goals.  There's generally no right answer.  But I know riding eight hours by default is going to be at a very, very slow pace.  Training stress will probably be no different than a 6 hour ride at IM pace.  So what did that two hours get you if say the TSS for the two was the same?

For example, I have never, ever done a training ride over 4:30.  I have ridden over 100 miles three times... in my three Ironman races.  I pretty much know what my TSS will be for an IM race so I make sure to hit my IM TSS number (or get darn close to it) during my 4:00 to 4:30 training rides.  I certainly can't cover 112 in 4:00-4:30 (my IM bike splits are 5:15) so that means riding at a pace a fair bit higher than I would in an IM to get the TSS numbers I want.  My IM pace might be at 70% FTP so my 4:15 training ride might be closer to 80% to get the training stress "similar" to what I'll do on race day for 112 miles or 5:15.

That's a long winded way of saying there's a way to equivalently stress the body with a shorter workout. I'd much rather ride 4:00 at 80% than 6:00 at 60%.

I've done a triple brick similar to this...but with descending miles on the run...all at IM pace...doesn't look so hard on paper but man it's a ball buster!  

Longest training day I think was a 7 hour ride. I loved it!    Lots of interesting perspectives here.  

I'd really, really, really re-think that workout.  Then I'd really, really, really re-think continuing on with whatever plan or coach recommended that workout.

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Same here.