SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! (Page 2)

Originally posted by dtoce I'm back. First time that I get to say 'returning' member. Having lurked for so long, I feel like I know everyone... Name-Dale Story-Typical for an aging athlete...hurt running in 2011 which led to cycling and considering triathlon. Some training followed by aggressive ramps into long course. First completed tri=Quassy 1/2 IM. Second was IMLP. Now, year 4 and working on consistency. Also learning to bike with power and swim withh some sort of reasonable form. Races-2013 had 2 sprints, 2 oly races and 2 half-IM. This year, I only have the rev3 Quassy 1/2 IM scheduled for about a week and a half from now. I did my first OWS already! See, you can teach an old dog. Water was 63 degrees. I didn't drown and feel much better about the upcoming race now.

Hey Dale - welcome back - Rev3 Quassy is supposed to be a good one! Nice to be able to get in the open water, even if it was 63 degrees. My first of the season was this past weekend for a race, the temp was already 72 degrees. Probably will get back in the lake tomorrow for a training day, but the way things warm up so quickly around here this time of the year it will probably now be too warm for wetsuits just one week later. Ah, well - wetsuit season was fun while it lasted.

It's still a bit sore today but better than it was yesterday for sure.  I did a spine twist stretch on the edge of the bed this morning that generated a whole bunch of cracking and popping  in my back and hip.  That seems to have helped a lot.  I think as long as I stick to the "don't do anything stupid" plan I'll be ok.  Of course sitting on a plane for two flights probably qualifies as stupid...

Originally posted by TankBoy

Originally posted by dtoce I'm back. First time that I get to say 'returning' member. Having lurked for so long, I feel like I know everyone... Name-Dale Story-Typical for an aging athlete...hurt running in 2011 which led to cycling and considering triathlon. Some training followed by aggressive ramps into long course. First completed tri=Quassy 1/2 IM. Second was IMLP. Now, year 4 and working on consistency. Also learning to bike with power and swim withh some sort of reasonable form. Races-2013 had 2 sprints, 2 oly races and 2 half-IM. This year, I only have the rev3 Quassy 1/2 IM scheduled for about a week and a half from now. I did my first OWS already! See, you can teach an old dog. Water was 63 degrees. I didn't drown and feel much better about the upcoming race now.

Hey Dale - welcome back - Rev3 Quassy is supposed to be a good one! Nice to be able to get in the open water, even if it was 63 degrees. My first of the season was this past weekend for a race, the temp was already 72 degrees. Probably will get back in the lake tomorrow for a training day, but the way things warm up so quickly around here this time of the year it will probably now be too warm for wetsuits just one week later. Ah, well - wetsuit season was fun while it lasted.

Other than a few shallow lakes, I doubt if the water temp around here ever gets to 72 degrees.  

Well, look at it this way - it is a HECK of a lot better than driving! Good to hear it is feeling a little better.

Good point, driving would kill me for sure.  It is hard on my lower back even when it's in good condition.

That sounds down-right dreamy to me - I prefer the water cold. Even the deep lakes around here get really warm, especially at the surface. I always like when out rains right before a race as we get a little surface turnover that helps. I think folks around here really under estimate what it takes out of you on race day when the water is 85+ degrees. Great for boating, skiing, wake boarding, and generally floating around drinking adult beverages all day, not so much for racing.

The 85 degree sludge in Muncie does not sound appealing?

I think I mentioned it here a long time ago, but there has been a fair amount of interest in our neighborhood about starting up a youth triathlon team, and a group of parents have been after me to coach it. I eventually succumbed and said I would do it as soon as school was out. We had out first practice yesterday and we actually had 10 kids show up! It was a lot of fun, and the kids seemed to like it too. We did about 20 minutes of orientation and Q&A with the parents and kids, worked on proper warm up, and then did some gamey-type running and bike handling skills. I gave them each a sort of "maximum-not-to-exceed" workout schedule for each week leading up to the first team race (6 weeks away) and then for now we are going to meet once per week as a team and work mostly on the ABCs: Agility, Balance, and Coordination. Most of the parents are also runners, cyclists and/or triathletes of some sort - the biggest issue I can see right up front is the parents thinking the kids should train like little adults, so I think the parents will need more "training" than the kids, actually. I suppose those of you who are involved in youth sports are more than familiar. We will work on that. The good news is the kids had a blast, and I think the parents were even surprised how fun it was. It will be interesting to see how it sticks through the summer. If it works out the plan is to do something more formal next year, and probably affiliate with a larger youth organization.

For those of you in the US, any big training plans for the long weekend? My Training Peaks calendar is mysteriously blank as my coach has been waiting to see how I recovered over the past few days. It is a little unnerving....

That sounds very cool Rusty.  My 9 year old will do a kids Tri at the end of summer.  The kids are in all sorts of camps during the summer, and he was signed up for an Adventure camp in July until we found out about a Tri camp at a local outdoor pool.  He wanted to drop the adventure camp, so we went with the Tri camp for him  -hopefully should be fun (and parying for ggod weather).  We have one youth Tri group around here but the cost is a bit high - maybe if he really shows some interest we can look at it.  He's almost, but not quite, tall enough to fit my wife's 1980's Miele road bike, until then he's on his mountain bike.

Good grief...I forgot Monday was a holiday.  Actually works out perfect because I really wanted to do a hard weekend of riding, but at the same time need to get a few miles on my TT bike for a 40k I've got coming up June 8th.  Should work out perfectly that I can do a 3.5ish hard ride Sat, cruise on the TT bike Sun, then go for another long ride back on the roadie Monday.

Strava/power/fitness/form graph questions:

If anyone has looked at the Strava training graph with fitness/fatigue/form, have you correlated with peaking for a race?  Has anyone actually used it to figure how their peak/taper is going?

It looks like the form curve (just fitness minus fatigue, I believe) is steepest (upward) for around 6-7 days and then begins to become asymptotic, with the highest predicted form around 9 or 10 days out (not sure what happens after that - I'm guessing it just drops as fitness continues to drop).

I'm wondering where, theoretically (so, I'd love to hear thoughts even outside of Strava, as it has its limitations), you want to be on that curve for a race (steep part?  Just as it flattens out?  On the flat part a couple weeks out?).  As in, if you put in a huge weekend the week before a race and then taper down with short, race intensity boughts for the last week, does that work and how would that "look" on the Strava curve?  Is a week of very light activity better than 2 weeks of moderately tapering, or is it better to take down the stress further out?

Trying to figure how many more long rides I can fit in before a 6/8 HIM and still be able to taper for the race (IME, it's better to taper well than to try to cram in fitness, but I have never been still building this close to a race - usually in "peak" mode at this point, which transitions more easily into a week of taper).  

TLDR:  Not sure if the Strava graph is even useful, but would like to know if anyone else uses it to guide a taper and how.

Thanks!

Matt

Matt,

I use the Strava freshness and fitness graph just to spot check myself since the data is available online.  It has the same basic concepts that the performance management chart does in Training Peaks and/or WKO+.  Strava seems to use slightly different calculations, but they are very close to training peaks.

For training peaks, they suggest that your TSB (training stress balance...aka "Form" in Strava) to be somewhere between 10 and 30 in order to race well.  Keep in mind that with training peaks, it's possible to input all of your training stresses from swimming, biking, and running...where Strava only takes input from rides that have power data.

This article may help

My back survived the flights and is feeling better all the time so I should be good for Sunday.  Our first flight was on the smallest little clunker of a plane I've ever been on.  The flight attendant you see in this picture was also the co-pilot..

(plane.jpg)

I like the buckled floor with tape holding it together - that looks reassuring. 

Beech 1900!  Love that plane.  

Took one into Montreal with the family a month or so ago.  Sketchy…  At least all the vibration should have helped your back!

Matt

Nothing like a trail race to make you feel out of shape. 

Anyone else following the Giro this year.  The next 7 races (over 8 days) will be extremely exciting with all the mountain stages, including an all uphill TT compacted together.  Chances are that most of the GC contenders will have at least one bad day and it will be pure survival.  I know all the mainstream glory goes to the TdF, but man...ever since I started paying more attention to other races, including the Giro and the Vuelta...it kind of puts the TdF in a new light.

Thanks - very helpful article.

So, I upgraded on TP so I can see the same numbers everyone else also uses.  Definitely cool (and I have a feeling I'm just scratching the surface).

A follow up question.  As you go out in time without working out, the TSB obviously goes up - until it levels off and then drops after about 15 days.  Were I to shoot for the highest TSB, I'd stop riding after this weekend for a 6/8 race.  Seems a bit extreme.  Maybe just before the steep part levels out?  Hmmmm...

Has anyone experimented with where on the TSB profile they race best?  While the examples given in the article make the point that where you should race depends on who you are (and we're all different), I think it could be an interesting discussion for the group as to people's experiences with correlating the numbers to performance.

Now that I have the data, I'm going to muck about in them and try to answer the above historically for myself (once I figure out how to use the "way back machine" in TP and look at last year's races vs. TSB for each).

As my upcoming HIM is only my second race at that distance, and it comes after a craptastic April of training, this is something I'll be trying to figure out quickly!

Matt

Now that *that's* over (all clear, for the docs here, so no issues  )

Name - Chris

Story - I played water polo in hi school and NCAA Div. I one year, then quit for nearly 20 years.   Got fat.   Started swimming to lose weight, met triathletes, first tri 10 years ago next month, progressed to Oly, HIM, and IM.   Got sick in 2009-2010, went back down to sprints, basically starting over.   Did IM Canada last year but now doing mostly halfs and interesting races.    FOP swimmer, MOFOP biker, MOP runner which I am working on this year.

2014 Races - 2013 was IM year and a lot of training so I decided to make 2014 about the experiences.   NOLA 70.3, Escape from Alcatraz, SOS in New York, Silverman 70.3 and a few other races sprinkled in there.    Goal was to go sub 5 at HIM this year but that's a work in progress. As am I

 was recording it, but between that, the TOC, and the Kings playoff it was too much so only started watching the Giro last week.  Still looking for Quintana to come into form.   The climbs should be epic.  As an aside the two commentators on BeIN sports are awesome, so much better than Phil/Paul/Bobke...

I think maybe I should take propyphol (sp?) the day before every race.   Felt like crud yesterday, wasn't sure about today but felt AWESOME on the bike and run.  2:00 bike, :30 brick, ran sub 8s comfortably for nearly 4 miles, Never  been able to do that before.   Losing 6 pounds between Thursday morning and Friday morning probably didn't hurt  :^    Did my best to gain some back Friday afternoon tho.

OK, I've been on TP enough the last day (getting data close to right and analyzing) that my wife actually commented on it...  So, I should post up what I can now!  Move along if you are not interested in the results of a lazy azzed day of data slicing… (and who could blame you).  Just thought I'd put up what jumped out at me from the last year.

From the beginning of last season (June), I did a few races with the following scores

Oly (6/30):  TSB -1.1, ATL 123, CTL 100.  Placed top 20 and I think 2nd in AG, IIRC.  This was after a build block and was a rest & test week race.

Sprint 2 weeks later:  TSB 5.7, ATL 105, CTL 104.  12/1000 OA, 1st in AG.  Trained through this one (end of a "peak" week for the next race)

Oly 1 week after that: TSB 22, ATL 102, CTL 102.  Similar OA (14th maybe?), 1st or 2nd AG (one of the OA podiums was my AG, but not "counted" because of the OA).  I did a full 2 week peak and one week taper per the Friel "Your Best Triathlon" plan.

HIM 4 weeks after that (8/18):  TSB 25, ATL 119, CTL 109.  Way down in the OA. 17th in AG.  Kinda shoe-horned a 1 week peak and 1 week taper after a 1.5 week build (wasn't in my plan, but made it work).

4 weeks later I did another sprint after an injury, and felt more recovered than for the earlier sprints but less fit.  TSB 27, ATL 80, CTL 88.  4th OA, 1st AG (if you don't count the guy that came in 1st OA or something like that - hey, I got the trophy).    

So, I'm guessing:  That CTL matters more for long course, as long as the TSB is positive;  TSB matters more for short course, as long as CTL isn't waaay low (gutting it out) and a lower ATL helps with "pop" in the legs;  A balance of both is needed for Oly (for me, a positive and probably high teens TSB on top of a good CTL around 100?).

Best would be to have a higher CTL, so I could taper more (Friel doesn't have a ton of tapering) and get the TSB up into the 30's or 40's, but that would require a lot more work (and no injuries or travel!) longer before the race.

I'm looking at what I'll do for the 6/8 race, as I'm behind yet know that I can't force fitness this close to the race.   More on that in a while (I know - you just can't wait, right?).  

Fun stuff!  Jason, thanks for tipping me over the edge on TP.

Matt

Save it for Tuesday and go outside. Way too much thinking for Memorial Day Weekend.