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2010-04-27 9:18 AM
in reply to: #2813206

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Extreme Veteran
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DC Metro area
Subject: RE: Arizona
Another thing to consider is that this is mainly going to be used to combat gang violence and drug trade
As someone who lived at a firehouse for a year which happened to be the national headquarters for the ms13 gang (Langley park, md) which wad heavily populates with illegal El salvadorians, im all for this. Even if you don't drive you can till get a state I'd, and even if you do not have your I'd on you you can till be looked up in the state system.

Edited by fire34fighter 2010-04-27 9:20 AM


2010-04-27 9:34 AM
in reply to: #2819211

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Champion
5868
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Urbandale, IA
Subject: RE: Arizona
AcesFull - 2010-04-27 9:04 AM

 


I find this very offensive and I will be reporting this to site ownership.  I have recently been following our family tree for my mother and father's 50th anniversary.  While my grandmother escaped from the clutches of the holocaust, nobody else in her family did.  I am dismayed that someone could sink to this level.
2010-04-27 9:40 AM
in reply to: #2813206

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Subject: RE: Arizona
Again, this law, damn near exactly is law in Prince William County VA. It has been in effect for 3 years already. The same sky is falling scenarios have been forwarded about it and the same overreaction about concentration camps and arrested for brown skin have been bellowed about.

None of that came to be. It worked exactly as it was supposed to work and there have been no ACLU suits about it at all. Generally because it's a valid law.

If you come in contact with the police and you're an illegal, you get booted. If you are not an illegal you don't.

It's the same BS people who don't look into things start hollering about and never even have the decency to be embarrassed when they're proven wrong.
2010-04-27 9:41 AM
in reply to: #2813206

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Elite
4564
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Boise
Subject: RE: Arizona
Here's an excerpt from cnn

The law, scheduled to go into effect 90 days after the close of the state's legislative session, would require immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times. Previously, officers could check someone's immigration status only if that person was suspected in another crime.


So there is already a law on the books that allows the police to check your immigration status if you are a suspect in a crime. Now they have lowered the bar to suspicious activity. Was this necessary?
2010-04-27 10:00 AM
in reply to: #2813206

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Pro
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Parker, CO
Subject: RE: Arizona
I have not read all the responses but really, if the federal government isn't going to try to fix the mess the AZ needs to do something.  I don't like this but I know it's a huge problem for the state...they just can't sit on their hands.  What I would like to see is immigration come down hard on every employer that hires illegals.  hurt the businesses in the pocketbook for hiring undocumented workers.  seems simple enough.

and Aces, see no point in your earlier post and find it offensive.
2010-04-27 10:10 AM
in reply to: #2813206

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Champion
7821
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Brooklyn, NY
Subject: RE: Arizona
I don’t Renee’s examples are unreasonable. The fact is, a blonde 22 year old kid who gets arrested for public drunkenness isn’t going to be made to sit in jail until he can prove he’s not an illegal alien. The same can’t be said for a kid with an accent.

I don’t see how the cops, even if they themselves aren’t racists or xenophobes, can avoid racial profiling when it comes to enforcing this law.

And speaking of racist and xenophobic:

Imagine if they enforced a law like this in New York City... goodbye to most of the cab drivers.


So “most of the cab drivers in NYC” are illegal aliens, according to you? And you make this assumption because….they’re brown and speak with accents?

Either you left out the sarc font, or you should be ashamed of yourself. You do know there’s a difference between “immigrant” and “illegal alien”, right?


2010-04-27 10:11 AM
in reply to: #2819320

Subject: ...
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Edited by AcesFull 2010-04-27 10:11 AM
2010-04-27 10:13 AM
in reply to: #2819253

Subject: ...
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2010-04-27 10:23 AM
in reply to: #2819457

Champion
5376
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PA
Subject: RE: Arizona
AcesFull - 2010-04-27 11:13 AM

bradword - 2010-04-27 9:16 AM Wow Aces,

Not cool at all.  You are calling asking for documentation and deporting the same as the jewish holocaust and the nazis?  Not cool at all, and pretty dang offensive to all involved (especially people who have relatives of the holocaust). 

Look back at pre-holocaust history.  It didn't start with armbands, it started with "reasonable" laws asking for documentation.



Odd how the left never calls out that the Nazi's disarmed the Jews when they are touting more gun control.  I guess that is inconvenient?  Just curious.
2010-04-27 10:39 AM
in reply to: #2819253

Buttercup
14334
500050002000200010010010025
Subject: RE: Arizona
bradword - 2010-04-27 10:16 AM Wow Aces,

Not cool at all.  You are calling asking for documentation and deporting the same as the jewish holocaust and the nazis?  Not cool at all, and pretty dang offensive to all involved (especially people who have relatives of the holocaust). 


This isn't just about asking for documentation. Let's not pretend it is a benign requirement; we're all smarter than that here.

It's about detaining people in jail unless they are carrying documentation and until they can provide documentation - not for ALL people, just for those the police decide should be held.

Whether the issue is due process or gun rights, I don't care about Leftie or Rightie labels. I care about the Bill of Rights. This bill smacks of being UnAmerican; let the chips fall where they may.
2010-04-27 10:40 AM
in reply to: #2813206

Master
2447
200010010010010025
White Oak, Texas
Subject: RE: Arizona

Just finished reading the law 19 pages not too long and I do not find anything wrong with it. Why is it a problem to have the State enforce National law?  Do we really want the Police not to investigate if they have reasonable cause to believe a crime is being committed? I am very pro immigration and I think we need to drastically increase the number of work and student visas issued to Mexicans.  I do not think we need to grant amnesty to those here illegally.  This is a huge issue and I think it is one both Republicans and Democrats have ignored but it can no longer be ignored.  I too am offended by Ace’s post indicating that attempting to enforce our laws is akin to supporting extremism.



2010-04-27 10:41 AM
in reply to: #2819489

Buttercup
14334
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Subject: RE: Arizona
Pector55 - 2010-04-27 11:23 AM
AcesFull - 2010-04-27 11:13 AM

bradword - 2010-04-27 9:16 AM Wow Aces,

Not cool at all.  You are calling asking for documentation and deporting the same as the jewish holocaust and the nazis?  Not cool at all, and pretty dang offensive to all involved (especially people who have relatives of the holocaust). 

Look back at pre-holocaust history.  It didn't start with armbands, it started with "reasonable" laws asking for documentation.



Odd how the left never calls out that the Nazi's disarmed the Jews when they are touting more gun control.  I guess that is inconvenient?  Just curious.


Do you also find it odd when the right doesn't call out Nazi history when the right calls for gun control?

Thinking people disagree on gun control measures. Shocking that people will disagree, I know.


2010-04-27 10:51 AM
in reply to: #2819570

Champion
7347
5000200010010010025
SRQ, FL
Subject: RE: Arizona
CBarnes - 2010-04-27 11:40 AM

I too am offended by Ace’s post indicating that attempting to enforce our laws is akin to supporting extremism.



x2 

Aces will be the first one to tell you you are crazy for suggesting that any of Obama's policies might be socialist. 

However asking for ID = the holocaust in his book.  Come on man.  Back to reality.
2010-04-27 10:55 AM
in reply to: #2819566

Champion
7347
5000200010010010025
SRQ, FL
Subject: RE: Arizona
Renee - 2010-04-27 11:39 AM I care about the Bill of Rights. This bill smacks of being UnAmerican; let the chips fall where they may.


Funny.  The very people we are talking about are not covered by the Bill of Rights.  That's a right of the citizens.  Seems very American to me.
2010-04-27 11:03 AM
in reply to: #2813206

Champion
11641
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Fairport, NY
Subject: RE: Arizona
ADMIN NOTE:

This thread is getting heated. There's some really good stuff here and yes, some of it is provocative to say the least.

We'd rather not remove the thread because it's an important topic that people feel strongly about.   Let's try to keep to the Guidelines for a Healthy Discussion. No Personal Attacks, No Generalizations. 

If you disagree with something, state why you disagree with it and what you believe, but do so within the rules of the site.
2010-04-27 11:04 AM
in reply to: #2819489

Subject: ...
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2010-04-27 11:05 AM
in reply to: #2819625

Elite
4564
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Boise
Subject: RE: Arizona
TriRSquared - 2010-04-27 9:55 AM
Renee - 2010-04-27 11:39 AM I care about the Bill of Rights. This bill smacks of being UnAmerican; let the chips fall where they may.


Funny.  The very people we are talking about are not covered by the Bill of Rights.  That's a right of the citizens.  Seems very American to me.


I am always perplexed by this stance. Everyone here who isn't a Native American was an "illegal immigrant" back in the day, and now that we are in charge we are trying to limit the number of people who can enjoy our freedoms. If all of these rights truly are rights, it would seem to me that they are universal. Obviously we can't extend them to people who are outside of our jurisdiction, but for those who are within our jurisdiction, we can. The Declaration of Independence isn't the constitution, but this to me makes it clear

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...


Instead, we have people who are trying to say you can have our country's rights, but you have to fill out a piece of paper, pay a fee and wait in line for 5-10 years, unless of course you were born here.
2010-04-27 11:06 AM
in reply to: #2818480

Extreme Veteran
494
100100100100252525
DC Metro area
Subject: RE: Arizona
What's with all the talk about detaining innocent people? Once again, a simple drivers liscense or state issued Id will serve as adaquate proof of citizenship. If you happen to not have that on you for some stupid reason, it takes five minutes to look up on a database.....some of you all are acting as if they're going to round up every Hispanic person in Arizona and send them to guatanomo bay...
2010-04-27 11:07 AM
in reply to: #2819670

Champion
7347
5000200010010010025
SRQ, FL
Subject: RE: Arizona
JoshR - 2010-04-27 12:05 PM
TriRSquared - 2010-04-27 9:55 AM
Renee - 2010-04-27 11:39 AM I care about the Bill of Rights. This bill smacks of being UnAmerican; let the chips fall where they may.


Funny.  The very people we are talking about are not covered by the Bill of Rights.  That's a right of the citizens.  Seems very American to me.


I am always perplexed by this stance. Everyone here who isn't a Native American was an "illegal immigrant" back in the day, and now that we are in charge we are trying to limit the number of people who can enjoy our freedoms. If all of these rights truly are rights, it would seem to me that they are universal. Obviously we can't extend them to people who are outside of our jurisdiction, but for those who are within our jurisdiction, we can. The Declaration of Independence isn't the constitution, but this to me makes it clear

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...


Instead, we have people who are trying to say you can have our country's rights, but you have to fill out a piece of paper, pay a fee and wait in line for 5-10 years, unless of course you were born here.


You must have a process.  Otherwise it would be a free for all.

Are you in favor of just opening the borders and letting anyone walk in and be "American"?

I cannot imagine there are more than a handful of countries where you could do this (if any at all).  Why should we be the exception?

BTW those words were written by men who cast off a monarchy, a king who controlled their lives. This is a far different situation.  It grants us life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.   Not automatic entry into the country.

Edited by TriRSquared 2010-04-27 11:09 AM
2010-04-27 11:08 AM
in reply to: #2819661

Subject: ...
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2010-04-27 11:08 AM
in reply to: #2819457

Master
1585
1000500252525
Folsom (Sacramento), CA
Subject: RE: Arizona
AcesFull - 2010-04-27 8:13 AM

bradword - 2010-04-27 9:16 AM Wow Aces,

Not cool at all.  You are calling asking for documentation and deporting the same as the jewish holocaust and the nazis?  Not cool at all, and pretty dang offensive to all involved (especially people who have relatives of the holocaust). 

Look back at pre-holocaust history.  It didn't start with armbands, it started with "reasonable" laws asking for documentation.



Ok, I'll bite. If asking for documentation that you are a citizen of this country is going to lead to an American holocaust, how do you propose that we stem the tide of illegal immigrants across our borders. The federal government hasn't done anything to stop it and left unchecked, it is going to bankrupt border states. It is one of many reasons that California is failing as well.

What is the solution?


2010-04-27 11:16 AM
in reply to: #2819694

Pro
4909
20002000500100100100100
Hailey, ID
Subject: RE: Arizona
Aces,

This is my last comment about what you posted.  If you would have put it up with an explanation, I don't think most would have a problem.  You just throwing that up there without explanation wasn't okay with a few people here on this board.   This is the internet, things can be taken many different ways.  I think you knew that when you put it up without explanation, but thats just my opinion.   
2010-04-27 11:18 AM
in reply to: #2819694

Subject: RE: Arizona

AcesFull - 2010-04-27 9:08 AM

marmadaddy - 2010-04-27 11:03 AM ADMIN NOTE:

This thread is getting heated. There's some really good stuff here and yes, some of it is provocative to say the least.

We'd rather not remove the thread because it's an important topic that people feel strongly about.   Let's try to keep to the Guidelines for a Healthy Discussion. No Personal Attacks, No Generalizations. 

If you disagree with something, state why you disagree with it and what you believe, but do so within the rules of the site.

Thanks, Marma.  As I said, my posting of the armband that Jews were required to wear was done to honor those Jews (and the millions of non-Jews) who were murdered by the Nazis.  The whole point of places like the Holocaust Museum in DC and other places is to never let us forget that humans are capable of atrocities. 

The first laws the Nazis passed were about documentation.  Armbands, deportation, ghettos and death camps came later.  Oh, we can say that such things would never happen here, but laws like this seem to suggest otherwise.

And as to the argument that 70% of Arizonans agree with the law, I would point out that the laws restricting Jews in Germany in the 1930s enjoyed widespread popular support.

Are you invoking the "slippery slope" argument?

2010-04-27 11:22 AM
in reply to: #2819694

Champion
7347
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SRQ, FL
Subject: RE: Arizona
AcesFull - 2010-04-27 12:08 PM

The first laws the Nazis passed were about documentation.  Armbands, deportation, ghettos and death camps came later.  Oh, we can say that such things would never happen here, but laws like this seem to suggest otherwise.



How does this law suggest otherwise?  Have there been similar laws in the US that have lead to the extermination of millions of people?  This is 2010 United States.  Vastly different from 1930s/40s Germany.
2010-04-27 11:48 AM
in reply to: #2819577

Champion
5376
5000100100100252525
PA
Subject: RE: Arizona
Renee - 2010-04-27 11:41 AM
Pector55 - 2010-04-27 11:23 AM
AcesFull - 2010-04-27 11:13 AM

bradword - 2010-04-27 9:16 AM Wow Aces,

Not cool at all.  You are calling asking for documentation and deporting the same as the jewish holocaust and the nazis?  Not cool at all, and pretty dang offensive to all involved (especially people who have relatives of the holocaust). 

Look back at pre-holocaust history.  It didn't start with armbands, it started with "reasonable" laws asking for documentation.



Odd how the left never calls out that the Nazi's disarmed the Jews when they are touting more gun control.  I guess that is inconvenient?  Just curious.


Do you also find it odd when the right doesn't call out Nazi history when the right calls for gun control?

Thinking people disagree on gun control measures. Shocking that people will disagree, I know.



It was directed at Aces because his posts are hypocritical.  Playing the Nazi association game runs across both parties when it is desperation time.  Shocking that parties use the slipper slope fallacy to garner support, I know.
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