Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. (Page 37)
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2014-01-28 8:29 PM in reply to: ImSore |
Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Alright...20min test finally in the books, and it hurt! I had a very specific number in mind that I was chasing, but fell short on this ride - even so, I'm quite happy with the result. I was after 265 watts (rather a stretch I think), as this would have given me a nice even watts/kg number - maybe silly, but it was something to shoot for. Started off really slow, like really slow. Had it in my mind to start at 250 for the first min, then bump it to 255 for the next 5 and see where things were at - well I stayed at 250 for the first 5min and I kind of told myself that this was not going to be my night and just settle in and suffer. And then things started to pick up and I was pushing harder, got to about 14min or so and had an uh oh moment as HR was through the roof and I had to back off or I would have exploded. Just told myself to try and keep eeking out watt after watt on the average. 5min - 250watts, 164bpm So, it all nets out to 258 for my 20min test, and a CP of 243 watts. And since I'm tipping the scales at 155lbs right now, that works out to 3.45watts/kg. A little lower than I wanted, but lots of room to grow, and I reckon I'll be able to start the next test a little stronger. |
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2014-01-29 7:50 AM in reply to: GoFaster |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by GoFaster So, it all nets out to 258 for my 20min test, and a CP of 243 watts. And since I'm tipping the scales at 155lbs right now, that works out to 3.45watts/kg. A little lower than I wanted, but lots of room to grow, and I reckon I'll be able to start the next test a little stronger. Well done. You have been off a lot, so a good place to be at this point. What is the highest you have ever done for 20min ? |
2014-01-29 7:52 AM in reply to: WaterRat |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by WaterRat Got my Week 4 Threshold 1 in this evening as well. Heart rate says it was not too bad but the legs were feeling it towards the end of each interval. Attached file for viewing pleasure. Enjoy the rest of your evening. Ron Hey Ron. Where/how do you do your rides. They are sooooooo smooth. It's almost like you are on a computrainer. Power, cadence is super smooth. You make it seem effortless :-) PS : what CP are you using ? |
2014-01-29 7:53 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by ImSore I am getting a bit worried about my next test. I would be anxious. There is no doubt you will get a much better 20' test. Well done. The again, that's a double edge sword. Nicer number, more pain moving forward Edited by marcag 2014-01-29 7:54 AM |
2014-01-29 8:00 AM in reply to: JAYCT |
5 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by JAYCTI also didn't realize Dr. Coggan was a co-creator of Training Peaks. I'm not.: when Hunter Allen's and Kevin Williams' original CyclingPeaks software merged with Friel's TrainingBible.com to form TrainingPeaks, the new entity inherited my original ideas (i.e., normalized power, TSS, power profiling, quadrant analysis, the PMC). It therefore makes sense to provide some explanatory material in the form of articles there, to minimize how much gets "lost in translation". For the most complete compendium, though, our book is best (even though I've written lots of other things not found even in it). |
2014-01-29 9:22 AM in reply to: marcag |
92 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by WaterRat Got my Week 4 Threshold 1 in this evening as well. Heart rate says it was not too bad but the legs were feeling it towards the end of each interval. Attached file for viewing pleasure. Enjoy the rest of your evening. Ron Hey Ron. Where/how do you do your rides. They are sooooooo smooth. It's almost like you are on a computrainer. Power, cadence is super smooth. You make it seem effortless :-) PS : what CP are you using ? Marc, I do them in Trainer Road on a Kurt Road Machine using virtual power. I set my power smoothing to 3 sec but I try to use a gear that a cadence in the 90 range will give me the desired power. Once I have that, all I do is concentrate on the cadence. My monitor is set to where the cadence number is about where my line of sight would be if riding on the road. Just stare down that number and GO! The graphs do look easy but holding that 91-92 cadence on some of the intervals gets tough. CP is 222 and I feel like I'm in the right ball park with that number. Under that number my heart rate will be pretty stable in the high 140's to 150's and going over that number the heart rate will climb into the 160's and eventully the breathing becomes labored. BTW - Happy Hump Day Ron |
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2014-01-29 10:30 AM in reply to: marcag |
Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by GoFaster So, it all nets out to 258 for my 20min test, and a CP of 243 watts. And since I'm tipping the scales at 155lbs right now, that works out to 3.45watts/kg. A little lower than I wanted, but lots of room to grow, and I reckon I'll be able to start the next test a little stronger. Well done. You have been off a lot, so a good place to be at this point. What is the highest you have ever done for 20min ? This is the part I grapple with - how do I do so little riding over 2 months and then set good numbers (and I've always made sure to calibrate the PM before every ride, so I don't think that explains it). Highest 20min before was 262 or 263, but since I set a PB for the 5min, why not go for it in the 20min as well. But I knew I didn't have it within the first few minutes. Ride file question. Do you create these in GC or are you using a different program? The reason I ask is tied to adding in lap markers to the file. Because I've had to follow a slightly different path I created some .erg files to use, and I added in lap markers. Then for the default lap counter at the bottom of the GC training screen I changed it to Lap power, and changed Distance to Lap time remaining. With a PM it doesn't matter as much, but for those using virtual power, the ability to see the concrete lap power number would be really nice, rather than just trying to get your power line to match the target line. For the short 30sec intervals, etc, I don't bother setting the lap marker and just add it at the end of 5x30sec, etc. |
2014-01-29 11:52 AM in reply to: GoFaster |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by GoFaster Ride file question. Do you create these in GC or are you using a different program? The reason I ask is tied to adding in lap markers to the file. Because I've had to follow a slightly different path I created some .erg files to use, and I added in lap markers. Then for the default lap counter at the bottom of the GC training screen I changed it to Lap power, and changed Distance to Lap time remaining. With a PM it doesn't matter as much, but for those using virtual power, the ability to see the concrete lap power number would be really nice, rather than just trying to get your power line to match the target line. For the short 30sec intervals, etc, I don't bother setting the lap marker and just add it at the end of 5x30sec, etc. They are created in a wonky Excel sheet and I copy and paste the result into a txt file that I give a .mrc extension. How do you create your lap markers ? |
2014-01-29 12:15 PM in reply to: ImSore |
Veteran 1677 Houston, Texas | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by ImSore TH 1 wk 4 done. TSS 96 A bit tired after a swim session, but I pushed through it, and went above the targets a bit. I am getting a bit worried about my next test. I don't think you should be worried about your next test....unless you're worried that your number is going to go WAY up and the rides are going to get WAY harder! If I were to get a TSS of 96 for a 67 minute ride, I'd probably question if my CP was correct....and start looking forward to doing a new test to see the improvements (and dreading how much subsequent rides are going to hurt!). On that same ride, I netted a TSS of 86, and didn't do it post-swim |
2014-01-29 1:38 PM in reply to: marcag |
Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by GoFaster Ride file question. Do you create these in GC or are you using a different program? The reason I ask is tied to adding in lap markers to the file. Because I've had to follow a slightly different path I created some .erg files to use, and I added in lap markers. Then for the default lap counter at the bottom of the GC training screen I changed it to Lap power, and changed Distance to Lap time remaining. With a PM it doesn't matter as much, but for those using virtual power, the ability to see the concrete lap power number would be really nice, rather than just trying to get your power line to match the target line. For the short 30sec intervals, etc, I don't bother setting the lap marker and just add it at the end of 5x30sec, etc. They are created in a wonky Excel sheet and I copy and paste the result into a txt file that I give a .mrc extension. How do you create your lap markers ? The wizard in GC has the options to add, delete, lap, or Interval (which created my workout backwards). I simply Add with the time and watts (or %), and then Add again, but click Lap in the blank space, and then click Add again for the next segment. The lap markers show up in the training screen. I'll post a screenshot tonight. I wanted to edit the files you created to add the lap markers, but don't seem to be able to do it in GC. |
2014-01-29 5:41 PM in reply to: GoFaster |
243 Lincoln, Nebraska | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Two of the week 4 rides down. I chose to do the VO2Max-1 Monday, and this morning did the THR-1. Next up Sweet Spot. I pushed on THR to get to where I felt my breathing and legs needed to be. It gave me a TSS at the end of the 70 minute workout of 97. I'm still riding above the planned numbers because I think my CP is too low, but I'll hopefully fix that when we re-test. When do we re-test? This was a good workout with the added push, and the last set was harder than it has felt on any other workout thus far - which I liked!!!! My VO2 Max was a TSS of 75. I think I overshot some on that work out as well. Eventually I'll be undershooting so this overshooting in the early stages will make up for that. Plus when I reset my CP I think I'll be cursing these workouts...all.the.time. Can someone remind me the purpose of a threshold ride versus a VO2 ride? I'm sure I'd find the info if I dug through all the posts again, but my God we all post a lot and that would take me a couple hours. |
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2014-01-29 6:09 PM in reply to: crissy_jo |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by crissy_jo Two of the week 4 rides down. I chose to do the VO2Max-1 Monday, and this morning did the THR-1. Next up Sweet Spot. I pushed on THR to get to where I felt my breathing and legs needed to be. It gave me a TSS at the end of the 70 minute workout of 97. I'm still riding above the planned numbers because I think my CP is too low, but I'll hopefully fix that when we re-test. When do we re-test? This was a good workout with the added push, and the last set was harder than it has felt on any other workout thus far - which I liked!!!! My VO2 Max was a TSS of 75. I think I overshot some on that work out as well. Eventually I'll be undershooting so this overshooting in the early stages will make up for that. Plus when I reset my CP I think I'll be cursing these workouts...all.the.time. Can someone remind me the purpose of a threshold ride versus a VO2 ride? I'm sure I'd find the info if I dug through all the posts again, but my God we all post a lot and that would take me a couple hours. If ever you want a quick link to Shane's explanations for the week, I put them in my log, easy to find Here is the one for week 4 http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp... Shane refers to the trainingpeaks article that shows the type of adaptations for work in each zone http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/power-training-levels Now, notice the author of this article, then scroll up a bit and look who recently joined our group. Yep, same guy. So if you have any questions...you might get lucky and get an answer from the horse's mouth. |
2014-01-29 6:13 PM in reply to: marcag |
Veteran 341 Orangevale, CA | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Week 4 Threshold 2 workout completed. Those 8 min intervals had me hurting at the end. I think my CP may be low as well, so I'm curious to see how the numbers change when we re-test. TSS - 86 for the ride. Chris Attachments ---------------- croyston-btpower-wk4-thres2.FIT (66KB - 1 downloads) |
2014-01-29 7:13 PM in reply to: marcag |
Veteran 441 Maine | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Week4 VO2-1 done. In hindsight I feet I could have pushed that workout a bit more. I'll see if I still feel that way after the SWE-1 on Friday night. I'll post all 3 files after SWE-1 is complete. |
2014-01-29 7:15 PM in reply to: marcag |
243 Lincoln, Nebraska | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by crissy_jo Two of the week 4 rides down. I chose to do the VO2Max-1 Monday, and this morning did the THR-1. Next up Sweet Spot. I pushed on THR to get to where I felt my breathing and legs needed to be. It gave me a TSS at the end of the 70 minute workout of 97. I'm still riding above the planned numbers because I think my CP is too low, but I'll hopefully fix that when we re-test. When do we re-test? This was a good workout with the added push, and the last set was harder than it has felt on any other workout thus far - which I liked!!!! My VO2 Max was a TSS of 75. I think I overshot some on that work out as well. Eventually I'll be undershooting so this overshooting in the early stages will make up for that. Plus when I reset my CP I think I'll be cursing these workouts...all.the.time. Can someone remind me the purpose of a threshold ride versus a VO2 ride? I'm sure I'd find the info if I dug through all the posts again, but my God we all post a lot and that would take me a couple hours. If ever you want a quick link to Shane's explanations for the week, I put them in my log, easy to find Here is the one for week 4 http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp... Shane refers to the trainingpeaks article that shows the type of adaptations for work in each zone http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/power-training-levels Now, notice the author of this article, then scroll up a bit and look who recently joined our group. Yep, same guy. So if you have any questions...you might get lucky and get an answer from the horse's mouth. Thanks a ton for posting the links, I'm reading them all now. I'm getting so smart now. And I saw our most recent joiner. Nice when the big-wigs join in. Makes me feel special, EXTRA special. |
2014-01-29 8:28 PM in reply to: 0 |
Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Here's what the ride file looks like in GC (this one was an erg not mrc file), and the other is the workout wizard (not the same ride file obviously). You'll also see the lap power at the bottom and remaining lap time on the first screen shot. Edited by GoFaster 2014-01-29 8:32 PM (GC Laps.JPG) (GC Wizard.JPG) Attachments ---------------- GC Laps.JPG (69KB - 2 downloads) GC Wizard.JPG (33KB - 5 downloads) |
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2014-01-29 8:33 PM in reply to: marcag |
Veteran 945 South Windsor, CT | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by dtoce what %FTP do you recommend for HIM and OLY race distances? The easy answer is 80-85% for HIM and 90-95% for Oly. But that answer is IMO misleading. There are many variables that make up a good target. Confidence in your true CP, ride data, bike volume going into the race, run volume going in....Many factors. I would say 80% is a rough number to TRY IN A RACE REHEARSAL to see what happens. Originally posted by dtoce so, during triathlon races, and racing with a PM, it is best to aim for a goal % of FTP (say 90% for a sprint,) and try to distribute your power/energy uniformly with no matches burned. Later on, see how the legs felt for the run then adjust the number for the next race? yes There are ways of converting run speed to watts. For hoots the other day I calculated that my good HIM runs are at about 85% of my threshold run power. I bike conservatively. I hit 80% max, sometimes less. 77-78 is fine for me. But I do make it up on the run. Maybe I should try 82%, 82%. I then started to play with bestbikesplit and biked 10watts less, get a time, add that 10watts to the run see the improvement....and it would be very close. A little less on the bike, a little more on the run I would say that if you underbike 10-20watts, you can make that time on the run by going a bit harder Overcook the bike, you will walk and be significantly slower I would say race on the conservative side of the bike, do the first half of the run conservative and if there is gas in the tank, you can spend it fully and not be any slower. But again, this is only part of the equation. Fitness, volume and training data play into this. As does swim and run pacing. Also, time on the course (3hr vs 2h20) also is a factor. FYI, when someone says 80-85% ask them to see a good run that follows that up. Few people can do it. Some can, TomsPharmacy for example, Bryan I bet could. But these guys have HUGE biking engines. We can and should talk about race pacing more. Yes, we should talk about race pacing more...and the use of NP. Originally posted by Andrew Coggan Normalized power is my original idea, and mine alone. Everything subsequent (e.g., GOVSS, xPower, rTSS, etc.) are merely variations on my original concept of smoothing/weighting/unweighting the raw data to estimate physiological cost. So, now that I have done my re-reading, I feel like I have a better handle on things. It seems obvious to get a solid measurement of FTP with testing-followed by training to push up FTP early on. This should be followed by monthly retests using a 20min test. Then race specific prep on the bike. You've gotta do the training to improve, we all know that, but there are lots of specifics of training yet to be learned... But about racing-- On race day, armed with knowledge of what your FTP is and the course layout, one should strive for a specific IF, or NP, as a better use of physiologic energy on the bike thereby maximizing the opportunity to run well. That is a big key. Later on, you can use the IF or NP to analyze the race and get a better handle on whether you can push a bit harder on the bike, or if you overcooked it, depending on how you felt and what the performance actually was. Dr. Coggan's recommended %of FTP=IF(intensity factor), from his book, are as follows: Sprint=1.03-1.07 IF (fraction of NP)-which would be 100-103% of FTP Oly=0.95-1.0 (so basically holding FTP as close as possible, but not over) 1/2IM=0.83-0.87 IM=0.70-0.76 There is always relative recovery on the downhills, so pushing hard until you spin out seems like a good strategy for hilly races, if it fits your own profile of how you ride. (I know I like my 11 gear a lot more than my 12-ha!) Of course, your own results will certainlyvary and knowing what you actually did on the race course will help greatly next time. This sounds like VERY useful information for triathletes. |
2014-01-29 9:39 PM in reply to: dtoce |
Member 258 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. I am just dying on my workouts this week. Threshold today was awful. I couldn't hit my target watts at all, and it just got worse after the first interval. I thought I was just being a wimp, but my HR was over 170. Yuck. I've been trying to run with a bit more frequency (although I haven't actually increased my mileage, and these are slow, easy runs). Hopefully I'll get back on track soon. Jaime Attachments ---------------- cstoker-2014-01-29-bt-power-week4-thr-1-686098.tcx (1977KB - 4 downloads) |
2014-01-30 6:59 AM in reply to: RunningJoke |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by RunningJoke I am just dying on my workouts this week. Threshold today was awful. I couldn't hit my target watts at all, and it just got worse after the first interval. I thought I was just being a wimp, but my HR was over 170. Yuck. I've been trying to run with a bit more frequency (although I haven't actually increased my mileage, and these are slow, easy runs). Hopefully I'll get back on track soon. Jaime Are you using proper cooling ? I use a huuuuge fan on the trainer. When doing intervals like this, maybe start at the low end and try to build. For example your threshold zone is roughly 91-105%. Why not start at the lower end of that range and if you can up each interval a percent or two.. Much more motivating and you will get equivalent benefit. |
2014-01-30 7:10 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by dtoce It seems obvious to get a solid measurement of FTP with testing-followed by training to push up FTP early on. This should be followed by monthly retests using a 20min test. Then race specific prep on the bike. You've gotta do the training to improve, we all know that, but there are lots of specifics of training yet to be learned... There are several methods of testing. The coach of this group and many very knowledgeable people chose the 5/20 CP method. Each method has it's pros and cons. Pick one, be consistent. IMO, every month is a lot, just pick something you will be consistent at Originally posted by dtoce But about racing-- On race day, armed with knowledge of what your FTP is and the course layout, one should strive for a specific IF, or NP, as a better use of physiologic energy on the bike thereby maximizing the opportunity to run well. That is a big key. I would re-phrase that. With knowledge of your FTP, go out and confirm, in training, the paces you plan to use in racing. Do not go from FTP to racing, go from FTP to race simulation to racing. Your FTP is an estimate. Your target is a calculation. A calculation based on an estimate sometimes doesn't work well in the real wor;d Originally posted by dtoce Dr. Coggan's recommended %of FTP=IF(intensity factor), from his book, are as follows: Sprint=1.03-1.07 IF (fraction of NP)-which would be 100-103% of FTP Oly=0.95-1.0 (so basically holding FTP as close as possible, but not over) 1/2IM=0.83-0.87 IM=0.70-0.76 IMO those numbers would be for a very very well trained athlete with a very good grasp of his FTP. By all means, go for it, but they are aggressive. For example, an opinion based on my personal experience, if FTP is truly all out for 1hr, I have trouble imagining the typical AGer can do and Oly at IF close to 1, having done a reasonably hard 1500m swim and having to follow up with a 10k run. It's hard to imagine doing a 2.x hour event having spent 1hr (bike segment) close to 100%. Swim hard, bike at 90, run well and tell me how that felt :-) Edited by marcag 2014-01-30 7:14 AM |
2014-01-30 7:11 AM in reply to: GoFaster |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by GoFaster Here's what the ride file looks like in GC (this one was an erg not mrc file), and the other is the workout wizard (not the same ride file obviously). You'll also see the lap power at the bottom and remaining lap time on the first screen shot. thanks. I will try to see if I can get the lap markers in our MRC files |
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2014-01-30 7:38 AM in reply to: marcag |
Pro 6582 Melbourne FL | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Week 3 Thrs1 completed last night. Legs were trashed at the start but slowly came around. I didn't like the look of the 5x 4' on, 1' RI, intervals when I 1st loaded the WO, but all was well. TSS = 80.
Attachments ---------------- 2014-01-29 BTWK3-THR1.csv (140KB - 3 downloads) |
2014-01-30 7:43 AM in reply to: marcag |
Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by dtoce Dr. Coggan's recommended %of FTP=IF(intensity factor), from his book, are as follows: Sprint=1.03-1.07 IF (fraction of NP)-which would be 100-103% of FTP Oly=0.95-1.0 (so basically holding FTP as close as possible, but not over) 1/2IM=0.83-0.87 IM=0.70-0.76 IMO those numbers would be for a very very well trained athlete with a very good grasp of his FTP. By all means, go for it, but they are aggressive. For example, an opinion based on my personal experience, if FTP is truly all out for 1hr, I have trouble imagining the typical AGer can do and Oly at IF close to 1, having done a reasonably hard 1500m swim and having to follow up with a 10k run. It's hard to imagine doing a 2.x hour event having spent 1hr (bike segment) close to 100%. Swim hard, bike at 90, run well and tell me how that felt :-) Ditto on what Marc has said. I don't believe those numbers are reasonable for the vast majority of us - unless you really underestimate your FTP. As Marc said above, FTP is all out for 1 hr - nothing left in the tank. Realistically how is this even possible when you have to run afterwards. The strongest Sprint and Oly I've ever managed have been 94% and 90% - with the ability to run well afterwards. Think about how you feel racing at 100% after doing some 2x20min intervals @ 100%. |
2014-01-30 7:50 AM in reply to: Donto |
Veteran 1677 Houston, Texas | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Week 4, VO2 - 1 done this morning. I did all of the 30" intervals at 120%, so I was pretty pleased with that. I could have cranked out more if the workout had called for it, but I was so so glad when they were done! I also ran last night for the first time in four weeks (well, first time successfully....I'd tried two other times with instant pain, so turned back within one minute). I kept it super easy, incredibly slow....but most importantly, it was pain-free! So here's to hoping I can keep myself healthy for the next few months and that running doesn't get in the way of my bike progress. |
2014-01-30 8:26 AM in reply to: ligersandtions |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by ligersandtions Week 4, VO2 - 1 done this morning. I did all of the 30" intervals at 120%, so I was pretty pleased with that. I could have cranked out more if the workout had called for it, but I was so so glad when they were done! I also ran last night for the first time in four weeks (well, first time successfully....I'd tried two other times with instant pain, so turned back within one minute). I kept it super easy, incredibly slow....but most importantly, it was pain-free! So here's to hoping I can keep myself healthy for the next few months and that running doesn't get in the way of my bike progress. Excellent. I did VO2-1 at 120% as well and was happy when they were over. I did VO2-2 at 109% and was even happier to get those done. I have moved over to the VO2 group for now. |
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