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Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois (Page 57)
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 2016-10-28 8:57 PM in reply to: JBacarella |
Master 10208   Northern IL |  Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à troisOriginally posted by JBacarella Originally posted by Asalzwed Anything under an hour to an hour and a half should not require fuel during the exercise. Your body will store enough glycogen to fuel you for an hour + of heavy work. Once you get into longer duration, then look refuel during your workout, starting with smaller amounts. For an Oly or half marathon maybe one or two gel and water. I sometimes to a 15 mile trail race and I treat that the same as a half marathon. If you get into longer duration 4+ then you need more to sustain yourself. Caveat is try stuff at shorter distances first, it's hell to go long when something feels like lead in your stomach. Cyclomax is like all of the other sports drink mixtures, its all basically the same stuff. Minor differences in ingredients and what they put in it. I like it because it is milder. The flavor isn't overpowering and my teeth don't feel fuzzy when I drink it. We have a boutique sporting goods store here that caters to endurance canoe and kayak racers and that's the "thing" for them right now. Originally posted by brigby1 Yeah, you are on the right track as to how I think of it. And pretty spot on with duration of event or workout. Still, ultimately more about crossing a meal time or amount of time between meals than some need to replace calories in the midst of exercise for performance. Originally posted by abake Originally posted by JBacarella As for nutrition: After years of Tang (astronauts drink it) this Summer I switched to cyclomax. It's decent and does the job. I also like Honey Stinger waffles on the bike and I have eaten the strawberry with Nutella in the past, it's a nice treat. I will also sometimes eat an Uncrustable on a long ride. There are times it sits in my stomach like lead, so I didn't do it for my IM, I just stuck with Honey stinger waffles, and gels on the bike. I tried a Cliff Bar at the last aid station. It was like eating clay, I couldn't swallow it and spit it out. Thanks for sharing. The Honey Stinger waffles seem to be popular. I had not heard of cyclomax. Hot Runner and Asalzwad's posts about not fueling much are fascinating. Think it's more looking at it a bit differently. Probably more staying out of your own way. Take care of eating well outside of the workout or event and you won't be so dependent during. I think many tend to overrate how important it is during. Not saying to eat any old thing as I've certainly had some big issues myself, but more to look at it as complimenting a little instead of being a vital resource. Find something agreeable that should help a little, but don't rely on it to make or break your day as far as keeping your energy up. Hence, staying out your own way. Before going too far with that, something to keep in mind is just how long events go on for too. Even the marathon was only about 3 hrs, which is only a few times feeding at most, as compared to one that will take 12 hrs or more for most here. The training can vary too. When training more, I could quite regularly have a ride go 2-2.5 hrs and then go run for 45-60 minutes. Even a higher volume runner may still "only" do close to the 60 minutes most of the time. Some of that needing something could be just crossing a meal time, or in my case, that's a long time to go without even a snack. That's before getting into the 4+ hr rides an IM would have. I don't think what was said was meant to go entirely out or to really skimp on some of these, more putting in the idea that it may not be necessary to have as much as some do. Whenever this comes up on the main boards, some people really like to set up a smorgasbord with a huge array of food set out or packed in. It's probably not helping near as much as they think. That's heading towards magic pill thinking. Yeah, the glycogen is what most of (maybe near all of) the nutrition intake is for. Even the thinnest people have plenty of fat, but glycogen is more limited. Burning through all of it can take about an hour when going all in. Lower intensity takes longer for several reasons (less energy is burning & percent of it being glycogen is lower), so that can come into play too. Some of the really easy 4 hr rides I was doing last year really didn't need anything to get through as the IF was maybe like 0.60. |
| 2016-10-28 10:46 PM in reply to: 0 |
Master 8247   Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois I believe there may also be a gender difference in metabolism here. Don't women (even skinny ones) switch to burning fat more efficiently, or less painfully, or go through their glycogen stores more slowly, or something like that, in longer events? It seems like it's mostly the guys who are hitting massive amounts of gu and stuff during long races, and reports of "bonking" in long workouts/races seem to come much more often from male athletes. But maybe other factors are in play there, like having greater muscle mass (which requires more calories to keep going), bigger overall body size, or more pacing issues (from 37 years of running, I feel qualified to say that on average, men are more likely than women to start too fast in long races!). Edited by Hot Runner 2016-10-28 10:53 PM |
| 2016-10-29 6:33 AM in reply to: Hot Runner |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois Originally posted by Hot Runner I believe there may also be a gender difference in metabolism here. Don't women (even skinny ones) switch to burning fat more efficiently, or less painfully, or go through their glycogen stores more slowly, or something like that, in longer events? It seems like it's mostly the guys who are hitting massive amounts of gu and stuff during long races, and reports of "bonking" in long workouts/races seem to come much more often from male athletes. But maybe other factors are in play there, like having greater muscle mass (which requires more calories to keep going), bigger overall body size, or more pacing issues (from 37 years of running, I feel qualified to say that on average, men are more likely than women to start too fast in long races!). Could be more true when there are women around? I've seen some things suggestive of women holding speed (or a higher percent of shorter term speed) better as the events get longer, but it was less certain as to why. Men do tend to carry more body mass so heat buildup is a factor too. Data here has been the IF from bike splits where the women tended to be a little higher in spite of riding longer. It was also at Kona, so heat is always a substantial factor there too. I've been near as fast as these women (on the bike at least), but no way could I hold that IF in that heat. Even in cooler temps it'd be too high though that could speak some to me being in lesser swim & run shape. Have seen the idea floated that women may have a little different nutritional needs, and that they shouldn't just be considered smaller men, but haven't seen as much depth into that. |
| 2016-10-29 7:09 AM in reply to: brigby1 |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois Will have to look back...It was from an article I read last year while doing a model research project for my class. The article was kind of a layman's look at some reasons why women in fact may be more suited to very long distances than men, despite all the brouhaha about adding the women's marathon to the Olympics. (That whole "race equality" issue was a very big deal to me when I was a teenager. Girls in our state were not even "allowed" to run the 2-mile until my junior year. Thus my marathon at age 14--it was part of a one-girl boycott/protest campaign about that issue!) The article quoted a research study which I believe suggested that women start to burn a mix of fat and glycogen earlier in an endurance event than men do, so they run out of glycogen stores (which can lead to sensations of "bonking" or "hitting the wall") more slowly and gradually than men. (I think they were tracking women and men in a 100-mile trail race.) The way I explained it to my students is that maybe women are like hybrid cars--Our engines may be a bit less powerful than guys on average, but we get better gas mileage! There was also some research suggesting that women have lower perceived exertion/fatigue at similar % of VO2 max, which might be due to hormonal influence on endorphins. I guess that makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint when one considers that labor is an endurance event! But body size and heat dissipation could definitely play a role as well. |
| 2016-10-29 7:30 AM in reply to: 0 |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois And in other news.....Saigon appears to have joined the pumpkin spice bandwagon. Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf now has pumpkin spice cheesecake. (I tried it and it is pretty good.) This particular woman's body mass and glycogen stores are increasing by the second! (OTOH, servings here are small, particularly of Western type food. I consumed it in six or seven small bites. Guessing it was 1/3 to 1/4 the size of a slice in a typical US restaurant.) And in still other news, the rain is back with a vengeance after taking a day off yesterday. Lost 200m of cooldown at the pool to thunder and lightning, one big rainstorm mid-day; another broke just as I was coming back from cheesecake and coffee plus grocery shopping. It was the kind of huge, fast-moving storm cloud we call an "apocalypse cloud"--I started running back as seriously afraid I might drown in the deluge. Have occasionally been caught in them while running and it can get so intense it is difficult to breathe, much less see where one is going! Edited by Hot Runner 2016-10-29 7:52 AM |
| 2016-10-29 9:24 AM in reply to: Hot Runner |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois Originally posted by Hot Runner Having the same issues. I have used up all my personal leave for the school year and I don't think I can get any more requests, even for unpaid leave, approved. The only race here is in early May (Vietnam 70.3) and not enthused about it. Would love to get back to Worlds but as it's on the east side of the US next year, I think even if I qualified, it's just too far to be able to do the race justice with the leave I'd be able to get. I've so far signed up for nothing but Cour d'Alene 70.3. Still thinking about trying the "back door" route to KQ at one of the IM 70.3 events in China, but I'm not sure what the chances are of actually being able to pull that off. It's not so much the race itself (that too--no guarantee I'd get a slot!) but logistics and politics--I'd have to get the visa when I'm in the US this summer and the time window in which I could do that is very small (it's only valid for entry within 3 months after issue); not having the passport could affect family vacation plans or my return to Vietnam. Then there's weather at that time of year (very wet and unstable here and most places I might fly through en route), the fact that China doesn't always honor a valid visa (it actually says that on their website; had this happen with an internal travel permit before--not allowed to enter a destination in Tibet that I had applied for, been approved for, paid for, and traveled several hours out of my way to--no explanation given, no money back), the problematic relations between Vietnam and China, etc. etc. That is a very, very corrupt country. (I lived there for a decade and speak the language fluently. I know.) I could see them making it difficult for foreign athletes in various ways to give locals an advantage to place and KQ. Speaking from experience, unfortunately, with some events I did in China when I lived there. Not sure how much it matters that a multinational like IM Corp. is involved, when IM is in fact owned by a Chinese holding company (Wanda).May have to venture onto ST to see if anyone there has actually tried this route (it started this fall) and what their experiences were. I guess it would be an adventure, and if they are going to do anything truly crooked like label the course only in Chinese, I will have a secret advantage! Vietnam has a Challenge Series race (70.3) as of this year, around the same time, that I might use as a backup race if all goes south. This year there were only a little over 100 people--the "other female triathlete" (there may be a few more, but she's the only one I know!) in town qualified for Challenge Roth there by winning her AG. (Thank goodness, she's not in my AG--Sophie just turned 25 and we're about the same speed--she's a much better biker, I'm a slightly faster runner and much faster swimmer. Sadly, she works for the LBS and isn't a very early riser, so not much of potential training buddy.) But then it is back to heatstroke central. Plus...oh yeah....fall is our typhoon season! I'm just frustrated that I can hardly get to any races, period. It is going to be an epic effort (Friday night rush-hour sprint to airport, fly out a few hours after the race) even to get to/from a sprint aquathlon in Singapore. Ugh. I love to race, but getting there and back is such a hassle! It's almost impossible for me to imagine getting into a car and just driving a few hours to an event. Even at home in the US, there's only one summer event that close by. OK--Rant over. On the plus side, for two days straight, we haven't had hours of torrential rain, flash flooding, and 100% humidity. Ever since about a week before Worlds (end of August), that has been going on EVERY SINGLE DAY OR TWO. My brain is starting to grow a mold! I remember you lived there and I know how hard it is for you to get any time off. Boooooo I have a few friends who did the China 70.3 route to Kona and we're gonna try with Oscar early next year. He got kicked out of the Indonesian Triathlon Federation so he's a free agent now. Remember ... we're the country whose football federation FIFA kicked out for being too corrupt. (And that was AFTER all the FIFA busts). Anyway, people were very pleased with Hefei 70.3, organization, and logistics. The country being wooed for KQ is actually Japan. The Chinese just aren't that good ... yet. And yeah, trying to train is ridiculous during monsoon. Then I think of Oscar and I am just damn grateful every day. |
I'd tell you to teach where you're more appreciated and have a more flexible schedule but ... everywhere else in the region is such a craphole, Vietnam looks great. Taiwan, maybe? And a lot of great events there 
| 2016-10-29 9:27 AM in reply to: rrrunner |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois
GO WIENERLISA!!! - Didn't you do the RnR marathon in Vegas a few years back? |
| 2016-10-29 9:30 AM in reply to: emcmino |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois Originally posted by emcmino Hey Manatee's, I have been MIA for a few weeks now and just wanted to give a proof of life post. I hope everyone is doing well. I also wanted to introduce you to the newest Manatee Andrew. He has been keeping me very busy. Sorry it is so big, not sure how to resize. Oh my goodness, a MINITEE!!!! Big congrats!
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| 2016-10-29 2:21 PM in reply to: emcmino |
Champion 14677 Bronze member | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois Originally posted by emcmino Hey Manatee's, I have been MIA for a few weeks now and just wanted to give a proof of life post. I hope everyone is doing well. I also wanted to introduce you to the newest Manatee Andrew. He has been keeping me very busy. Sorry it is so big, not sure how to resize. Welcome Andrew! |
| 2016-10-29 7:32 PM in reply to: 0 |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois Do you think you could get me in touch with anyone who tried the China KQ route? Getting the visa is potentially a real hassle in my case, and I would really want to make sure it's worthwhile before trying. On Slowtwitch, there was a lot of mouthing off about China, IM Corp., etc. but not really sure anyone had actually done the events! A few from coaches whose athletes had tried and failed--apparently most AG were quite competitive. They also mentioned that slots were awarded by number of participants--included a photo of the roll down for Hefei. There was only one slot in my AG, that could be used for Kona OR 70.3 Worlds. So there weren't slots for "both". (I was thinking, oh, if I don't get a Kona slot, even if I'm second or third maybe I could go to 70.3 Worlds again. It doesn't, apparently, work that way, at least for us old ladies. Sadly, the leave issue is the nature of the beast with international schools. It's very hard to get qualified subs. The other problem is timing. 70.3 Worlds is during our first month of school, and that's a really critical time to set up expectations and routines with the kids, start first units of study, get to know parents, etc. Many schools wouldn't even allow a teacher leave at all (except for illness) during that time, and I understand why. I had to get an exception as it was against school policy. Our admin is quite supportive, and I don't really have any complaints. Schools elsewhere (especially in mainland China and in the Pacific Northwest) often start later than we do, so that would actually be the first or second week of school. I'll be honest--if I was an administrator, I would not allow a teacher leave at that time either unless it was serious medical or bereavement. There's just too much impact on the rest of the year for the kiddos. I do wish we could have a few more personal leave days (I think five is typical in the US), not just for racing but handling logistics like moves, travel visas, pet emergencies, etc. but that's another issue. I have applied for jobs in Taiwan, even one that would have involved a substantial step down in salary (was willing to do that for better quality of life) and not gotten them. For many postings, there are several hundred applicants. I think it's harder to get a decent elementary job now than KQ! Especially true as teaching couples and men get preferential hiring. This is not sour grapes, but routine policy for many schools and explicitly stated on job search websites--international schools don't have to follow US labor laws, and there are no unions. (If there were, we would have more than two personal days!) Teaching couples cost the school less for housing and tend to stay longer; men are scarce in elementary and many schools try to have at least one male teacher per grade level. At some level, schools are businesses, and in the absence of regulations requiring them to do otherwise, they will do what makes financial sense. Ready to move somewhere dry! Discovered Friday that my chain was rusted although I have not ridden outside since Worlds (which was dry). Has to be completely sweat and humidity in the air. Yuck! Bike shop removed a bucket full of rusty glop. Hopefully it will feel better to ride today. Edited by Hot Runner 2016-10-29 7:34 PM |
| 2016-10-29 9:24 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
Expert 2811 | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by Hot Runner I believe there may also be a gender difference in metabolism here. Don't women (even skinny ones) switch to burning fat more efficiently, or less painfully, or go through their glycogen stores more slowly, or something like that, in longer events? It seems like it's mostly the guys who are hitting massive amounts of gu and stuff during long races, and reports of "bonking" in long workouts/races seem to come much more often from male athletes. But maybe other factors are in play there, like having greater muscle mass (which requires more calories to keep going), bigger overall body size, or more pacing issues (from 37 years of running, I feel qualified to say that on average, men are more likely than women to start too fast in long races!). Could be more true when there are women around? I've seen some things suggestive of women holding speed (or a higher percent of shorter term speed) better as the events get longer, but it was less certain as to why. Men do tend to carry more body mass so heat buildup is a factor too. Data here has been the IF from bike splits where the women tended to be a little higher in spite of riding longer. It was also at Kona, so heat is always a substantial factor there too. I've been near as fast as these women (on the bike at least), but no way could I hold that IF in that heat. Even in cooler temps it'd be too high though that could speak some to me being in lesser swim & run shape. Have seen the idea floated that women may have a little different nutritional needs, and that they shouldn't just be considered smaller men, but haven't seen as much depth into that. There are studies to back this up. Males are more likely to engage in reckless behavior when females are around and have increased testosterone levels. It is a type of primal behavior, males will exhibit. It would make sense that I male is more likely to start out too fast on a run if females are around. |
| 2016-10-29 10:08 PM in reply to: JBacarella |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois That is kind of a funny mental image--all these guys trying to stampede away at the start to impress women. Made funnier by the fact that maybe only 10-20% of the participants in most of my races in Asia are female. All these dudes running/biking away from a handful of women who may well chick them on the run as a result. Maybe that's an argument for having women start first! Can't speak for other women, but impressing the opposite gender has not really entered into my pacing decisions. (Okay, Yanti, you're keeping quiet about the pace booty incident at the Singapore Sprint several years ago--that was catching up to a dude from behind, not impressing him from the front!) Incidentally, in her weekly update, my coach posted some notes on gender-based differences in metabolism/fueling from a book, "Roar" by Stacy Sims, that includes a bunch of interesting information. Need to sit down and read it. (Book not available here, but at least the notes.) |
| 2016-10-30 5:37 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
| Seattle | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by JBacarella Originally posted by Asalzwed Anything under an hour to an hour and a half should not require fuel during the exercise. Your body will store enough glycogen to fuel you for an hour + of heavy work. Once you get into longer duration, then look refuel during your workout, starting with smaller amounts. For an Oly or half marathon maybe one or two gel and water. I sometimes to a 15 mile trail race and I treat that the same as a half marathon. If you get into longer duration 4+ then you need more to sustain yourself. Caveat is try stuff at shorter distances first, it's hell to go long when something feels like lead in your stomach. Cyclomax is like all of the other sports drink mixtures, its all basically the same stuff. Minor differences in ingredients and what they put in it. I like it because it is milder. The flavor isn't overpowering and my teeth don't feel fuzzy when I drink it. We have a boutique sporting goods store here that caters to endurance canoe and kayak racers and that's the "thing" for them right now. Originally posted by brigby1 Yeah, you are on the right track as to how I think of it. And pretty spot on with duration of event or workout. Still, ultimately more about crossing a meal time or amount of time between meals than some need to replace calories in the midst of exercise for performance. Originally posted by abake Originally posted by JBacarella As for nutrition: After years of Tang (astronauts drink it) this Summer I switched to cyclomax. It's decent and does the job. I also like Honey Stinger waffles on the bike and I have eaten the strawberry with Nutella in the past, it's a nice treat. I will also sometimes eat an Uncrustable on a long ride. There are times it sits in my stomach like lead, so I didn't do it for my IM, I just stuck with Honey stinger waffles, and gels on the bike. I tried a Cliff Bar at the last aid station. It was like eating clay, I couldn't swallow it and spit it out. Thanks for sharing. The Honey Stinger waffles seem to be popular. I had not heard of cyclomax. Hot Runner and Asalzwad's posts about not fueling much are fascinating. Think it's more looking at it a bit differently. Probably more staying out of your own way. Take care of eating well outside of the workout or event and you won't be so dependent during. I think many tend to overrate how important it is during. Not saying to eat any old thing as I've certainly had some big issues myself, but more to look at it as complimenting a little instead of being a vital resource. Find something agreeable that should help a little, but don't rely on it to make or break your day as far as keeping your energy up. Hence, staying out your own way. Before going too far with that, something to keep in mind is just how long events go on for too. Even the marathon was only about 3 hrs, which is only a few times feeding at most, as compared to one that will take 12 hrs or more for most here. The training can vary too. When training more, I could quite regularly have a ride go 2-2.5 hrs and then go run for 45-60 minutes. Even a higher volume runner may still "only" do close to the 60 minutes most of the time. Some of that needing something could be just crossing a meal time, or in my case, that's a long time to go without even a snack. That's before getting into the 4+ hr rides an IM would have. I don't think what was said was meant to go entirely out or to really skimp on some of these, more putting in the idea that it may not be necessary to have as much as some do. Whenever this comes up on the main boards, some people really like to set up a smorgasbord with a huge array of food set out or packed in. It's probably not helping near as much as they think. That's heading towards magic pill thinking. Yeah, the glycogen is what most of (maybe near all of) the nutrition intake is for. Even the thinnest people have plenty of fat, but glycogen is more limited. Burning through all of it can take about an hour when going all in. Lower intensity takes longer for several reasons (less energy is burning & percent of it being glycogen is lower), so that can come into play too. Some of the really easy 4 hr rides I was doing last year really didn't need anything to get through as the IF was maybe like 0.60. I don't believe you can pinpoint a time at which everyone depletes all of their glycogen. It's going to depend on the intensity of exercise, how much a person's body is storing and how fast they deplete it. Because intensity is part of this equation, it explains why you can stretch out that time in a lower intensity event like a marathon. And why I can do an easy 23 mile run with nothing but water. And Ben, yes, good point about even the thinnest people having plenty of fat to burn. And that's the second part, how well you are able to tap into your fat as a fuel source. The good news is like most things, if you train, you can get better at it. Obviously this is starting to get a little technical but I believe everyone could hugely benefit by putting their focus on maintaining a really good diet out of training and practice gradually using less during workouts. |
| 2016-10-30 5:48 PM in reply to: ceilidh |
| Seattle | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois Originally posted by ceilidh Originally posted by emcmino Hey Manatee's, I have been MIA for a few weeks now and just wanted to give a proof of life post. I hope everyone is doing well. I also wanted to introduce you to the newest Manatee Andrew. He has been keeping me very busy. Sorry it is so big, not sure how to resize. Welcome Andrew! Aww, welcome Andrew! |
| 2016-10-31 8:30 AM in reply to: 0 |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois Just thinking back on it...weird but true, I have only "hit the wall" once in an actual race that I can recall (my first marathon). Maybe I have some kind of talent for burning through my glycogen slowly. But I have hit the wall with a splat a couple times on long days when trekking or climbing. The last time I seriously did so was toward the end of the descent from Gunung Kinabalu in Malaysia. It was exactly like the end of a bad marathon, that horrible feeling of, "If I fall down (and I might at any moment), I will just lie by the side of the trail until I die or someone scrapes me up." It took me a full week to get back any kind of "juice" in my legs. I think I even posted a "race report" of sorts on BT then! What is weird is I have really no real idea what caused that. I wasn't ill, had had no issues with altitude (it hit about two hours before the end of the descent, below 8000 feet and I had gone to nearly 14,000 without incident on that climb, and 19,000 on others), I had been traveling for a few days to get there, but as I recall I was reasonably well nourished and not in a hard training cycle; had eaten what I would normally have before a climb or race. Maybe not enough snacks during. Plus I think altitude accelerates glycogen depletion. When I was trekking in the Himalayas several years ago (where I can also recall a couple of "bonks", mostly at the end of descents on very long days going over a pass), I ate a crazy amount of carbs every day, mostly potatoes. On the plus side, never suffered altitude sickness. On the minus, there were still a couple of times I thought I was going to crawl the final few yards to the guesthouse! I'm guessing that was a combo of going through glycogen faster due to altitude, and maybe being a bit low on stored calories due to unfamiliar food or GI issues (Nepal--kind of inevitable). I discovered kind of by trial and error that sipping on caffeinated drinks (mainly black tea that I made with my boiled water) throughout the day seemed to help a lot. Edited by Hot Runner 2016-10-31 8:31 AM |
| 2016-10-31 8:52 AM in reply to: Asalzwed |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by JBacarella Originally posted by Asalzwed Anything under an hour to an hour and a half should not require fuel during the exercise. Your body will store enough glycogen to fuel you for an hour + of heavy work. Once you get into longer duration, then look refuel during your workout, starting with smaller amounts. For an Oly or half marathon maybe one or two gel and water. I sometimes to a 15 mile trail race and I treat that the same as a half marathon. If you get into longer duration 4+ then you need more to sustain yourself. Caveat is try stuff at shorter distances first, it's hell to go long when something feels like lead in your stomach. Cyclomax is like all of the other sports drink mixtures, its all basically the same stuff. Minor differences in ingredients and what they put in it. I like it because it is milder. The flavor isn't overpowering and my teeth don't feel fuzzy when I drink it. We have a boutique sporting goods store here that caters to endurance canoe and kayak racers and that's the "thing" for them right now. Originally posted by brigby1 Yeah, you are on the right track as to how I think of it. And pretty spot on with duration of event or workout. Still, ultimately more about crossing a meal time or amount of time between meals than some need to replace calories in the midst of exercise for performance. Originally posted by abake Originally posted by JBacarella As for nutrition: After years of Tang (astronauts drink it) this Summer I switched to cyclomax. It's decent and does the job. I also like Honey Stinger waffles on the bike and I have eaten the strawberry with Nutella in the past, it's a nice treat. I will also sometimes eat an Uncrustable on a long ride. There are times it sits in my stomach like lead, so I didn't do it for my IM, I just stuck with Honey stinger waffles, and gels on the bike. I tried a Cliff Bar at the last aid station. It was like eating clay, I couldn't swallow it and spit it out. Thanks for sharing. The Honey Stinger waffles seem to be popular. I had not heard of cyclomax. Hot Runner and Asalzwad's posts about not fueling much are fascinating. Think it's more looking at it a bit differently. Probably more staying out of your own way. Take care of eating well outside of the workout or event and you won't be so dependent during. I think many tend to overrate how important it is during. Not saying to eat any old thing as I've certainly had some big issues myself, but more to look at it as complimenting a little instead of being a vital resource. Find something agreeable that should help a little, but don't rely on it to make or break your day as far as keeping your energy up. Hence, staying out your own way. Before going too far with that, something to keep in mind is just how long events go on for too. Even the marathon was only about 3 hrs, which is only a few times feeding at most, as compared to one that will take 12 hrs or more for most here. The training can vary too. When training more, I could quite regularly have a ride go 2-2.5 hrs and then go run for 45-60 minutes. Even a higher volume runner may still "only" do close to the 60 minutes most of the time. Some of that needing something could be just crossing a meal time, or in my case, that's a long time to go without even a snack. That's before getting into the 4+ hr rides an IM would have. I don't think what was said was meant to go entirely out or to really skimp on some of these, more putting in the idea that it may not be necessary to have as much as some do. Whenever this comes up on the main boards, some people really like to set up a smorgasbord with a huge array of food set out or packed in. It's probably not helping near as much as they think. That's heading towards magic pill thinking. Yeah, the glycogen is what most of (maybe near all of) the nutrition intake is for. Even the thinnest people have plenty of fat, but glycogen is more limited. Burning through all of it can take about an hour when going all in. Lower intensity takes longer for several reasons (less energy is burning & percent of it being glycogen is lower), so that can come into play too. Some of the really easy 4 hr rides I was doing last year really didn't need anything to get through as the IF was maybe like 0.60. I don't believe you can pinpoint a time at which everyone depletes all of their glycogen. It's going to depend on the intensity of exercise, how much a person's body is storing and how fast they deplete it. Because intensity is part of this equation, it explains why you can stretch out that time in a lower intensity event like a marathon. And why I can do an easy 23 mile run with nothing but water. And Ben, yes, good point about even the thinnest people having plenty of fat to burn. And that's the second part, how well you are able to tap into your fat as a fuel source. The good news is like most things, if you train, you can get better at it. Obviously this is starting to get a little technical but I believe everyone could hugely benefit by putting their focus on maintaining a really good diet out of training and practice gradually using less during workouts. Yeah, you can't pinpoint a specific time for it to happen. Not without some other information too. Intensity being one. I just used something that a lot of training metrics and workout efforts tend to be based off of for more familiarity with it. Hopefully making it easier to understand. |
| 2016-10-31 9:01 AM in reply to: Hot Runner |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois Originally posted by Hot Runner Just thinking back on it...weird but true, I have only "hit the wall" once in an actual race that I can recall (my first marathon). Maybe I have some kind of talent for burning through my glycogen slowly. But I have hit the wall with a splat a couple times on long days when trekking or climbing. The last time I seriously did so was toward the end of the descent from Gunung Kinabalu in Malaysia. It was exactly like the end of a bad marathon, that horrible feeling of, "If I fall down (and I might at any moment), I will just lie by the side of the trail until I die or someone scrapes me up." It took me a full week to get back any kind of "juice" in my legs. I think I even posted a "race report" of sorts on BT then! What is weird is I have really no real idea what caused that. I wasn't ill, had had no issues with altitude (it hit about two hours before the end of the descent, below 8000 feet and I had gone to nearly 14,000 without incident on that climb, and 19,000 on others), I had been traveling for a few days to get there, but as I recall I was reasonably well nourished and not in a hard training cycle; had eaten what I would normally have before a climb or race. Maybe not enough snacks during. Plus I think altitude accelerates glycogen depletion. When I was trekking in the Himalayas several years ago (where I can also recall a couple of "bonks", mostly at the end of descents on very long days going over a pass), I ate a crazy amount of carbs every day, mostly potatoes. On the plus side, never suffered altitude sickness. On the minus, there were still a couple of times I thought I was going to crawl the final few yards to the guesthouse! I'm guessing that was a combo of going through glycogen faster due to altitude, and maybe being a bit low on stored calories due to unfamiliar food or GI issues (Nepal--kind of inevitable). I discovered kind of by trial and error that sipping on caffeinated drinks (mainly black tea that I made with my boiled water) throughout the day seemed to help a lot. I've become tired and faded for sure, but uncertain that I've truly bonked at times. Cramped up, couldn't (didn't want to) push as hard, really hurting sure. Got sick late in a hard long ride, thinking that was more bad nutrition (as opposed to not enough) as a switch in type didn't seem to agree with me. Think the more definitive example is Julie Moss from way back when, though Johnyy Brownlee may be getting close to it for a more recent example. Starting to stumble all over and his mind is just gone too (glycogen is fuel for the brain). |
| 2016-10-31 10:08 AM in reply to: brigby1 |
| Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois Originally posted by brigby1 Work ran a benefit 5k at a nearby park where the entry is to get a bunch of canned goods that will be donated to a local food pantry. Have been feeling pretty good running, so thought to try a little faster than easy this time, at least in sections. Last week was ~9:00/mi, so maybe like 8:30 and pick it up late. Ran it largely by feel and turns out I split ~8:00, 7:30, 7:00 and that extra bit ~6:30 to end up at 23:23 total (28:07 last week). Felt good, did something, but well short of spent so things seem to be coming along there. Afterward there was a raffle with lots of stuff given away. Won a 1-year membership to the gym (~$100 value). Good finish to the week/start to the weekend. That's great news, the recovery and your performance and your winnings! Very cool, congrats! |
| 2016-10-31 12:33 PM in reply to: Hot Runner |
Veteran 1100 Dayton | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois Originally posted by Hot Runner That is kind of a funny mental image--all these guys trying to stampede away at the start to impress women. Made funnier by the fact that maybe only 10-20% of the participants in most of my races in Asia are female. All these dudes running/biking away from a handful of women who may well chick them on the run as a result. Maybe that's an argument for having women start first! Can't speak for other women, but impressing the opposite gender has not really entered into my pacing decisions. (Okay, Yanti, you're keeping quiet about the pace booty incident at the Singapore Sprint several years ago--that was catching up to a dude from behind, not impressing him from the front!) Incidentally, in her weekly update, my coach posted some notes on gender-based differences in metabolism/fueling from a book, "Roar" by Stacy Sims, that includes a bunch of interesting information. Need to sit down and read it. (Book not available here, but at least the notes.) Well, I know I sure don't need any female presence to go out too fast. I do that quite well on my own, thank you! |
| 2016-10-31 12:56 PM in reply to: ponderingfox |
Master 9705 Raleigh, NC area | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois Ben - Thanks for sharing the 5k info with us. I’m so glad that you are feeling more yourself. It’s been a long haul. |
| 2016-10-31 2:04 PM in reply to: IndoIronYanti |
| 93 Chicago, Illinois | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois Thanks everyone for the congrats on Andrew, we are kind of smitten with him. Minitee, is great, made me laugh. I have started to try and run some and even signed up for a 5k this weekend. I am probably not ready for that, but it was $20.00 and starts 6 blocks from my place. I couldn't say no. |
| 2016-10-31 5:30 PM in reply to: emcmino |
Master 7712 Orlando | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois PSA- anyone looking for a watch, Clever training and HRMUSA (and maybe amazon) are selling the Garmin920xt for $200. |
| 2016-10-31 10:29 PM in reply to: amd723 |
Member 667 | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois Speaking of Garmin 920- my elevation has been wonky since I got the watch. Like as in according to my watch, on Saturday my elevation gain was 41,628 and my loss was 24,188. I finally decided to call Garmin and the awesome service rep talked me through a diagnostic. According to my watch, my current elevation is 22,480 feet and the temperature is 305 degrees. So I'm either running on another planet or even the sun, or my watch is not working. As my watch is not even a year old it's under warrantee so they are shipping me a new watch tomorrow and I just have to send my old one back. Now that's customer service! |
| 2016-10-31 11:47 PM in reply to: 0 |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois Wow--that sounds like quite a workout! Make sure you keep up your glycogen stores on that run. I have had plenty of workouts where it feels like I am running on the surface of the sun. One memorable brick run last spring, the heat index (when I checked after) was 121 degrees. I remember thinking in the final kilometres of Vietnam 70.3 that it wasn't nearly as miserable as that brick run! Edited by Hot Runner 2016-10-31 11:48 PM |
| 2016-11-01 12:56 AM in reply to: Asalzwed |
Veteran 2441 Western Australia | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2016 - Manatee à trois Originally posted by Asalzwed So how does one train to get better at burning fat? Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by JBacarella Originally posted by Asalzwed Anything under an hour to an hour and a half should not require fuel during the exercise. Your body will store enough glycogen to fuel you for an hour + of heavy work. Once you get into longer duration, then look refuel during your workout, starting with smaller amounts. For an Oly or half marathon maybe one or two gel and water. I sometimes to a 15 mile trail race and I treat that the same as a half marathon. If you get into longer duration 4+ then you need more to sustain yourself. Caveat is try stuff at shorter distances first, it's hell to go long when something feels like lead in your stomach. Cyclomax is like all of the other sports drink mixtures, its all basically the same stuff. Minor differences in ingredients and what they put in it. I like it because it is milder. The flavor isn't overpowering and my teeth don't feel fuzzy when I drink it. We have a boutique sporting goods store here that caters to endurance canoe and kayak racers and that's the "thing" for them right now. Originally posted by brigby1 Yeah, you are on the right track as to how I think of it. And pretty spot on with duration of event or workout. Still, ultimately more about crossing a meal time or amount of time between meals than some need to replace calories in the midst of exercise for performance. Originally posted by abake Originally posted by JBacarella As for nutrition: After years of Tang (astronauts drink it) this Summer I switched to cyclomax. It's decent and does the job. I also like Honey Stinger waffles on the bike and I have eaten the strawberry with Nutella in the past, it's a nice treat. I will also sometimes eat an Uncrustable on a long ride. There are times it sits in my stomach like lead, so I didn't do it for my IM, I just stuck with Honey stinger waffles, and gels on the bike. I tried a Cliff Bar at the last aid station. It was like eating clay, I couldn't swallow it and spit it out. Thanks for sharing. The Honey Stinger waffles seem to be popular. I had not heard of cyclomax. Hot Runner and Asalzwad's posts about not fueling much are fascinating. Think it's more looking at it a bit differently. Probably more staying out of your own way. Take care of eating well outside of the workout or event and you won't be so dependent during. I think many tend to overrate how important it is during. Not saying to eat any old thing as I've certainly had some big issues myself, but more to look at it as complimenting a little instead of being a vital resource. Find something agreeable that should help a little, but don't rely on it to make or break your day as far as keeping your energy up. Hence, staying out your own way. Before going too far with that, something to keep in mind is just how long events go on for too. Even the marathon was only about 3 hrs, which is only a few times feeding at most, as compared to one that will take 12 hrs or more for most here. The training can vary too. When training more, I could quite regularly have a ride go 2-2.5 hrs and then go run for 45-60 minutes. Even a higher volume runner may still "only" do close to the 60 minutes most of the time. Some of that needing something could be just crossing a meal time, or in my case, that's a long time to go without even a snack. That's before getting into the 4+ hr rides an IM would have. I don't think what was said was meant to go entirely out or to really skimp on some of these, more putting in the idea that it may not be necessary to have as much as some do. Whenever this comes up on the main boards, some people really like to set up a smorgasbord with a huge array of food set out or packed in. It's probably not helping near as much as they think. That's heading towards magic pill thinking. Yeah, the glycogen is what most of (maybe near all of) the nutrition intake is for. Even the thinnest people have plenty of fat, but glycogen is more limited. Burning through all of it can take about an hour when going all in. Lower intensity takes longer for several reasons (less energy is burning & percent of it being glycogen is lower), so that can come into play too. Some of the really easy 4 hr rides I was doing last year really didn't need anything to get through as the IF was maybe like 0.60. I don't believe you can pinpoint a time at which everyone depletes all of their glycogen. It's going to depend on the intensity of exercise, how much a person's body is storing and how fast they deplete it. Because intensity is part of this equation, it explains why you can stretch out that time in a lower intensity event like a marathon. And why I can do an easy 23 mile run with nothing but water. And Ben, yes, good point about even the thinnest people having plenty of fat to burn. And that's the second part, how well you are able to tap into your fat as a fuel source. The good news is like most things, if you train, you can get better at it. Obviously this is starting to get a little technical but I believe everyone could hugely benefit by putting their focus on maintaining a really good diet out of training and practice gradually using less during workouts. |
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