The Decline of the BT community (Page 7)

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Kido

Originally posted by Clempson

Originally posted by Kido

Originally posted by switch

This has been an interesting thread. 

I hadn't thought about the anonymity component, but I've added my name to my sig line, as that seems to be important to many.  Easily done.

To those of you who have been on BT for many years and are commenting on "bad apples", I hope you can take a very introspective look at your own posts.  Some of you crying the biggest foul on this are repeat offenders.  If you are going to dish it out, it only seems fair that you are willing to take it.
Just to be clear, as I would hate for this to be labeled as being veiled, I am largely speaking to the group who regularly posts in TAN.  If you want to complain about snarkiness, cliquiness,  inside jokes, and nastiness you should damn well make sure you're not doing it.  The double standards really chap my azz. 

Disagreements are an inherent part of an internet board, especially in places like PCOJ.  If you enter into a thread there, do so at your own risk and with a bit of a thick skin. The kind of banter that takes place in there requires decent writing skills and deductive reasoning.  If the conversation gets heated--and it does--it's not necessarily a personal attack.  Be prepared to defend your position or don't play.  If you say something galactically stupid or get out of line--own it.  Admitting your wrong once and awhile goes a long way.

The question remains, what can we do to make it better?  

I would encourage everyone to look at what they do on this site to help BEGINNER TRIATHLETES.  Think about that.  Do you  start threads or participate in threads for beginners?  Do you help people celebrate their firsts?  Read and comment on RRs? Participate in challenges? Send inspires?  Check in on posters who you haven't seen in a while? Are you inclusive?  Encouraging? Not just to your "friends"--but regularly reach outside of your group and your comfort zone?

Be the change you want to see.

 

Seriously? Mods, is this even allowed?I understand you may disagree, or even dislike people that contribute to TAN, but accusing the entire population of TAN? Yeah, Yanti, who is one of the kindest and most encouraging people on BT EVER is a founder of TAN. In every group there are people you may not get along with but that doesn't mean the whole group is like that. So according to you TAN is just bad apples - got it.I thought calling out individuals on BT (or group) was against forum rules.

seriously? i would have a problem with the site if the comment was edited.  switch isn't calling anyone one person out by name.  i didn't realize TAN was a select group, i thought all of BT could post there. 

this is the problem i have with BT. its all good when everyone is holding hands and drinking the same koolaid, but the moment someone steps back and says "wait a second.." everyone jumps on them. 

Not by name, but is it acceptable to say everyone who post is tri talk are bad apples? Or anyone that posts in the political forum as bad people? Or a particular mentor thread are jerks?I personally don't agree with judging an entire group of people by the actions of a few people in that group and will always stand up to that. No matter the group.I'm not for censorship and everyone is entitled to their opinion but it IS a rule of BT to not attack people in this forum and calling people that post in a specific thread bad apples is an attack on that thread and people in it. I'm not personally offended. I don't care what people think of me personally but I will speak out when someone negatively judges an entire group based on the few. I can't think of a time when that works out well.

Oh my--this is classic. Thank you

The paragraph that you are questioning, I'll call it "the bad apples paragraph" as I'm on my phone and have limited highlighting capabilities, starts with a topic sentence that defines the subject of the following sentences in the paragraph. I am specifically addressing those in the thread who are calling OTHERS bad apples. I then go on to explain that these same people are some of the repeat offenders of the same behavior they are speaking out against. Then I say where that behavior is so prevalent (TAN, providing a reference for a claim). And then my conclusion sentence--a summary of my points to the people claiming "bad apple" behavior by others is a comment on the double standard. And I stand by all of that. You can't have it both ways. Your posts here are actually a great example.

To further clarify, in case there is still any question, I'm not talking about every person who contributes to TAN. Yanti, for example, hasn't made a "bad apples" comment-- not addressing her. There are plenty of others who contribute regularly to TAN who aren't in here using the""bad apple" argument.

. Actions speak louder than words. I encourage anyone to do a user post search. It's very easy to see who regularly reaches out to beginners. It's very easy to see who stands up to whom. It's very easy for anyone to go read TAN.

I feel very confident that my actions will show what I contribute here. You can't spin that, no matter how hard you try.

So I don't misunderstand.  How is it "classic"?  And how is this an example?  A lot is being said here.  I'm curious of which actions you speak?

I've been on BT since 2006 and used to post a fair bit when I thought I could contribute information.  I've served as a mentor for several years off and on.  Scott was in my mentor group this past spring and he contributed tons...tons...of valuable swim information.  Frankly, I'm very upset to hear that he was treated this way by someone else on BT.  I've been tempted to respond to Fred's OP but really don't know if my opinion means a hill of beans so I probably won't.

Well, there is only way to settle this turf war.  (TT vs CoJ, vs PCoJ vs TAN).  I call dibs on the trident AND grenade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCWjo1ymhGs

I have been spending much less time on the BT forums as I previously did and there are two main reasons for me

1. My season is over and I am in a downtime so to speak on training. I am mainly just running, not swimming or biking.

2. The forums are not fun for me anymore. It seems that it is the same people posting in every forum that I went into and it seems that every post would lead to an argument or even a shot aimed at someone and them not knowing what they are talking about. Sometimes you can't win, even if you are posting about something you have spent your entire career focusing on.

To be honest, there are just a lot of frequent posters I do not enjoy hearing their opinion about every single  topic (especially when I go to their logs and do not see anything logged as training), so it has been better for me to fade away. I occasionally will stop in and read a post (like now) but I have to many other things going on in my life and I do not need to add any internet forum board drama, so I stay out and do not read it.

I have had an issue recently with the way the community answers certain questions. People will ask things like, which aero helmet is better, and half or more of the answers are, "ride your bike more and build the engine." It is condescending and doesn't address the OP. Answering threads that way absolutely kills and discussion about the actual question because the thread turns into a tangential agument. I think everyone would benefit from letting threads develop instead of killing them with anecdotal "facts" or sarcastic comments based on inside jokes within the forum. These things scare away beginners who might ask important questions because they feel like they aren't in the loop. (I know I felt that way when I first got here to some extent)

I also would love to see a bit of forum consolidation and removal of COJ topics from TT.

There is a post in the TT forum with someone looking for help starting a swim program for themselevs.  Here's your chance to help without someone telling you to "shut up". 

One thing I have noticed is that sometimes the most valuable information comes out in spirited arguments.  But I understand it isn't always worth the trouble it takes to get that information.

I've found logging workouts into BT cumbersome myself.  I do have my strava linked on my profile for people who want to see if I actually train or not.

I also do not log anymore because my coach works through trainingpeaks. Don't have the energy to double log. I don't necessarily think a person's training log should be a reflection of their knowledge and ability to answer a question.

That's true, just as post count, or how fast someone races aren't necessarily indicators of how knowledgeable someone is either.

A good example is Suzanne (AdventureBear).  She is extremely knowledgeable, patient, and helpful, but doesn't log here, hasn't raced much in recent years, and when she did race more, she was dealing with an injury that limited performance.

I showed your mommy last night.    LOL

(peeper.gif)

One of the best threads that I can recall in the last 3 years that I've been on the site was the "ask a champion" thread that BrianCD started after his AG win at IMAZ. great questions throughout and excellent, well thought answers. i think it's OK to have the same questions come up from time to time, as information changes over time (like clinical research), new products come to market, etc. And with more time and experience, even the "old timers" from the mid 2000s may have new or different perspectives on their own racing and training. For me personally, I've just completed my third summer of training and racing. All three years had different goals. The first year was just about learning what the hell I was doing, racing sprints and Olys. The second year I went straight back at training (beginning in October even) to prep for HIMs. My fitness was much better, but with rapid jumps in volume i struggled much of the race season with injury (though was able to get through both of the HIMs without injury). This year i focused on OLYs again on much less volume. I had no problems with injury whatsoever, but my fitness had declined remarkably by the end of the summer. Now i've signed up for IMWI and know that I have a lot of work to get ready for even the training. I will continue to check on TT, but will also spend more time in the IM forum as well. 

I have always appreciated this board due to the general tone being more positive and supportive than ST, but agree that the civility had declined. There are still great posters here, old and new, that I will continue to follow closely. 

I guess I'd just like to say "Thank you" to everyone on the board for making it what it is. 

Ryan

There are some things that a forum admin or moderator can do to foster a better sense of community and there are some things that are really outside of their control.

I don't use the mobile site but it sounds like there are issues, that is one thing the admin can address.

I also agree on the number of forums. I personally go to TT, CoJ and PCoJ, always have just used those three forums. TT used to go through a page or more of new topics in a good day of posting, has definitely slowed down. This is something that can be looked at by the admin, but as Fred said, there are unintended consequences to every move, there had to be a reason for each forum to be created so I leave it up to the wisdom and knowledge of the forum admin as to how many sections we need.

Mentor groups... I have never been in one so this is strictly opinion, but I don't really like the idea of them. I believe they were created to make newbies feel comfortable and to keep people involved. However I think it has gone too far in damaging the overall community in order to give people some warm fuzzies. If moderate people leave the main forums for secret groups then all we have left is the whackos and newbies. We are all adults, if you have a question you should be able to post it up on the main forum and sift through the answers, rather than retreat to a safe, comfortable, small group. You will quickly learn who to listen to and who to ignore. We all have people on this board that we value the opinion of and we all have people who we ignore or should ignore as there will never be a meeting of minds with some people. I don't mean to bash mentor groups, I am 100% sure the intention was and is still good in their creation, I just think one of the unintended consequences is that it segregated us.

Which brings me to my next point, BT used to do a better job of self moderating to a degree. If someone is out of line in their comment, someone else needs to step up and say so but we need everyone in the same forum for that to happen. And when a rebuke is given it should be done out of a desire to better the community, not to shame another poster or to get people on your bandwagon. 

At the end of the day, it is the internet, it is not life and death. FB, twitter and comments after news articles online bring out the worst in people. The anonymity allows people to say things they would never say in person. Also we need to all remember that the written word does not allow for inflection which can easily lead to misunderstandings. When I read something online I try to find the most positive meaning the poster could have had. Far too often our reaction is to search for the negative or find something to jump on and go into attack mode. We all need to give each other the benefit of the doubt and seek to understand rather than seek to argue and/or fight. Before you hit submit ask yourself, am I contributing to the discussion, have I sought to understand the post I am responding to and am I seeking to better the BT community or am I seeking to serve myself. 

So in summary, there may be a few tweaks that the admin can make to facilitate the community a bit better (I will throw my hat in as enjoying the new site and being a fan of the new features), but even more importantly we all need to look at ourselves and see this thread as a reset point to adjust our attitudes toward each other and to re-motivate us to make OUR community better. Without the people, BT is nothing no matter how fancy the site features, so treat others the way you want to be treated and always seek to better the community above seeking your own agenda.

My $.02, for what it's worth.

A-A-Ron (watch Key and Peele?)

Well, said.  Your 0.02 is worth a least buck fifty in my book.

I'll go buck oh five

Hmmm.  I'm not a newbie anymore.  So I guess I'm a...

Good post, though. (no sarcasm in the inflection there)