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2015-06-12 7:11 AM
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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
I would definitely add some Nuun tablets to the water on bike and especially run if temps will be in the 90's with high humidity. They have more sodium than most sports drinks and I use them regularly for training and racing here. I don't use salt tablets or other sports drinks (except occasionally if something decent is offered on the course) at all, and am normally self-sufficient in races. (The latter due to extreme distaste for the very sweet, over-concentrated drinks served at most events in Asia.) I have had big problems with most sports drinks, but never with Nuun, so guessing you would tolerate it well. The lemon-lime in particular has a pretty light flavor and isn't too sweet. Normally the only water I actually drink in a race or long ride is in my aero-bottle (for washing down gu or my lucky chocolate) and occasionally on the run; everything else is actually Nuun. In extreme conditions, one ends up drinking so much not only due to thirst but just trying to keep cool that theoretically hyponatremia (sp?) is possible and at any rate, warm plastic water gets disgusting pretty fast. Warm plastic lemon-flavored water is a bit better!

Not sure it's useful to anyone else, but my general formula for long bricks and HIM distance would be:

One large Polar bottle (750 ml) water with whole Nuun tablet (drink first)
Two medium bottles in the torpedo--600 ml water with 1/2 Nuun tablet each (drink second and third)
Aerobottle (I think 600 ml) with plain water to wash down nutrition, refill as needed with water at exchange

Run: One 500ml bottle water with 1/2 Nuun tablet, plus water and sometimes electrolyte drink (if not really disgusting) from the aid stations

On long bricks (3:30 ride), I do the first hour on the trainer in the AC, and I usually have another bottle of 1/2 strength Nuun.

I have never ended up in the med tent or seriously dehydrated after a race, even with heat index of 110, so this works for me. Caveat--I'm about 115 pounds and very acclimated to this stuff, also a very unsalted sweater, which is probably related to training in heat most of the time. YMMV for fluid and salt requirements.

Also, you can expect the heat to jack up your HR. I know I am about a minute a mile slower at the same HR/RPE than in cooler temps. I don't race by HR (I probably should) but I do use it as a "ceiling" for hard workouts (I slow down if I get above the target), which has the added benefit of keeping me from running myself into heat exhaustion, which used to happen quite a bit before I started using HR, especially on tempo runs. Regardless of HR or RPE, you have to "listen" to your body and make the judgement, not get stuck into going for some arbitrary pace.

Hope some of this is useful. It is the one area where I have a lot of experience!

ETA on the run I am also taking in 1-2 gu's (Powerbar Tangerine) which also have electrolytes, along with the water

Edited by Hot Runner 2015-06-12 7:37 AM


2015-06-12 10:12 AM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
Originally posted by GoFaster

So a little bit of panic has now crept in as I get ready for the HIM on Sunday - temperatures have changed and a wave of humidity is settling in.  Almost al my training has been done in weather in the mid 70's, and race day weather is no prediciting temps up to 90 thanks to the humidity.  I'm a wimp in the heat to begin with, but even moreso when I've done no training at these temps.

So, looking for a little advice.  On the bike I'll aim for a slightly lower power number than originally planned, but on the run the idea was to mostly pace by HR and hope that run pace would align, if not then back off a bit.  Plan to still use this strategy, however I reckon I'll have to accept I'm going to likely run much slower than I had hoped for.

My key concern are liquids/salts/electrolytes.  Original plan was 1 bottle of gatorade on the bike, up to 3 bottles of water (along with a banana and 4 gels).  Then on the run it was just water + some calories within every 5km stretch (nothing too specific).  But I'm worried that I'll be sweating much more and may need more sodium/electrolytes.  I consdiered Nunn tablets but have never added anything to my water/drinks in the past, it would be totally new for me.  Thoughts?




Neil, if all that liquid is on the bike, that is a lot of liquid, especially a lot of water.

Lots of opinions on electrolytes, but 300mg per bottle seems safe according to most sport drink manufacturers. I personally use Salt Sticks but to be honest I would just look at the list of ingredients and look at the sodium level.

Just be prepared to slow down on the run and not be frustrated by it

I did my little experiment in the calorimeter. 2.5hrs of biking at 40celcius, no drinking. There was no humidity so it was not bad. The reason humidity is so bad is the sweat does not evaporate from your skin. I lost 3lbs in the 2.5 hours but had no sweat on me.
2015-06-12 11:31 AM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

I would just plan to slow down a little...or a lot...and do whatever you can to stay cool on the run.  Take in as much ice as possible even if it means stopping at aid stations.  Throw the time goals out the window and try to race smarter than the rest of the field.

2015-06-12 12:06 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Seattle
Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by axteraa

Alcatraz RR is up.

It's kinda long, tl;dr version is that I suck at transitions.

Great write-up Arend (sorry, I spelled your name wrong in the RR) It's great you guys got to get together! 

I think you would've liked that run course

Maybe a bit short for her liking?  

Yeaaaah, nice try guys. I will not be tricked into entering a "swimmers" race where there are sharks and now possibly drone attacks.

Just thought I'd point out that they DO allow relay teams

What would be the point of going all the way to San Francisco and skipping the best part of the race??  

First Amendment Brewing? 

2015-06-12 12:09 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Seattle
Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by GoFaster

So a little bit of panic has now crept in as I get ready for the HIM on Sunday - temperatures have changed and a wave of humidity is settling in.  Almost al my training has been done in weather in the mid 70's, and race day weather is no prediciting temps up to 90 thanks to the humidity.  I'm a wimp in the heat to begin with, but even moreso when I've done no training at these temps.

So, looking for a little advice.  On the bike I'll aim for a slightly lower power number than originally planned, but on the run the idea was to mostly pace by HR and hope that run pace would align, if not then back off a bit.  Plan to still use this strategy, however I reckon I'll have to accept I'm going to likely run much slower than I had hoped for.

My key concern are liquids/salts/electrolytes.  Original plan was 1 bottle of gatorade on the bike, up to 3 bottles of water (along with a banana and 4 gels).  Then on the run it was just water + some calories within every 5km stretch (nothing too specific).  But I'm worried that I'll be sweating much more and may need more sodium/electrolytes.  I consdiered Nunn tablets but have never added anything to my water/drinks in the past, it would be totally new for me.  Thoughts?

Neil, if all that liquid is on the bike, that is a lot of liquid, especially a lot of water. Lots of opinions on electrolytes, but 300mg per bottle seems safe according to most sport drink manufacturers. I personally use Salt Sticks but to be honest I would just look at the list of ingredients and look at the sodium level. Just be prepared to slow down on the run and not be frustrated by it I did my little experiment in the calorimeter. 2.5hrs of biking at 40celcius, no drinking. There was no humidity so it was not bad. The reason humidity is so bad is the sweat does not evaporate from your skin. I lost 3lbs in the 2.5 hours but had no sweat on me.

I just don't feel it needs to be overly complicated. Go into the event well hydrated and then drink to your thirst during the event, using the methods others have suggested to keep cool as possible. And like Marc said above, don't be frustrated by a slower pace.

 

 

2015-06-13 11:11 AM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

I'm supposed to be racing a sprint tri tomorrow, but I have a sneaking suspicion they're going to cancel (part of) it.  The rain is back in TX and we're getting flash flood warnings left and right.  They changed the kids' tri to a 5k run this morning.

I had planned to do a long group ride today, but the rain and occasional thunderstorm passing through was bad enough that I opted to ride on the trainer instead.  I did get out for a short run....through ankle-deep puddles and stinging rain (and a few loud claps of thunder).  Hoping for the best for tomorrow!



2015-06-14 5:45 PM
in reply to: ligersandtions

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

RR: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=533044&posts=1#M5122442

A bit disappointed, but not surprised, with my results.  Have a new plan of attack in the works for the rest of the season.

2015-06-14 7:36 PM
in reply to: #5079829

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
Finished third in my road race today. Legs were not all there and I knew I would need my very best effort to pull off the win. Got dropped on the last climb but had fun mixing it up in the process.
2015-06-14 8:05 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

4:59:46 - sneaked in under 5hrs, just...

Mixed feelings on this one, and I'll post more tomorrow, but struggled on the bike, and didn't have it for the run.

2015-06-15 12:41 AM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Just wondering - is anyone on this thread going to be at Coeur d'Alene or Whistler this year?

2015-06-15 8:52 AM
in reply to: ligersandtions

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by ligersandtions

RR: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=533044&posts=1#M5122442

A bit disappointed, but not surprised, with my results.  Have a new plan of attack in the works for the rest of the season.

Hey Nicole - thanks for writing this up. I know from recent personal experience writing reports from races that don't quite go as expected is not quiiiiiiite as fun as writing about the ones that do. Ha. Honestly from an outside point of view it seems that this was not the awful performance you think it is (except for the Arend-inspired transitions - heh.) seriously, this race is just a single data point amongst many, and shouldn't really get inside your head or have you rethinking your bigger plan. think about it: you entered on a whim, with the primary goal of being to maximize your investment in your USAT annual membership. So in that sense, mission accomplished! in training you haven't been targeting the distance, and you did what to me sounds like a pretty tough workout the day before since you didn't think you were going to be racing. Not surprised you were dead-legged. I wrote it the comments of your report, but I will say it here as well: you just can't put a lot of stock in your results after the fact if they are not a priority beforehand. We all fall in to that trap at some point. 

You mention in your report that you might engage the services of a coach. from my personal experience I think that would help you a lot in getting off the plateau you seem to have found yourself on, but not simply because a coach will know how to write "better" workouts than you can. A lot of people think a coache' job is to write workouts. While that is often the most physical manifestation of what a coach does, what they really do is help you with appropriate goal-setting and then manage the workload that will allow you to (just) attain those goals. Personally the most important thing my coach has done for me is to more clearly understand the relationship (and distinction) between goals and outcomes. this has helped me tremendously not just in racing performance, but also in other aspects of my professional and personal life as well. From your report it sounds like you are conflating these two things. You are a very strong and committed racer. Don't let the outcomes from a single race (that again you jumped in to on a whim and without preparation) occlude your long-term agenda.



2015-06-15 9:14 AM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by GoFaster

4:59:46 - sneaked in under 5hrs, just...

Mixed feelings on this one, and I'll post more tomorrow, but struggled on the bike, and didn't have it for the run.

Hey Neil - sneaking in under 5 hours in what sounds like were shaping up to be uncharacteristically hot and humid conditions sounds all right to me. Heck, I would be happy with that these days under perfect conditions! Looking forward to reading how it went for you.

2015-06-15 9:16 AM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by Jason N Finished third in my road race today. Legs were not all there and I knew I would need my very best effort to pull off the win. Got dropped on the last climb but had fun mixing it up in the process.

Nice work getting on the podium, Jason. If you got dropped on the climb you must have been up against some pretty serious contenders!

2015-06-15 9:18 AM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Rumor around the interwebs is that Chris was giving it a go at qualifying for US Nationals this weekend. How did it go Chris?

2015-06-15 9:35 AM
in reply to: Jason N

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Master
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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

As for me I am sort of two steps forward and one step back. Two weeks post crash and I am mostly down to bandaids only, except for my wrist, which is still really nasty. The right foot no longer feels like it is being stuck with a red-hot poker whenever I wear a shoe. Instead it now just feels like a really. really bad blister. So that it finally manageable to walk around on. I rode on Saturday and the good news is my power and aerobic capacity still looks pretty good. The downer was when I swung my right leg over the saddle my hip flexor fired up badly. It settled down and loosened up quickly however. I have been working on it with my doc since the crash, and I thought it was going in the right direction. I tried running a bit yesterday and that did not go so well. I warmed up like usual and then set off at an easy trot. The hip flexor again immediately got really angry, but I tried to run on it a little bit just to see if it would calm down. No such luck; Within about 8 minutes my short run turned into a long walk. Back to the Doc today, so I will keep working on it. Oh, and my previous elbow injury seems it might be flaring back up as well, which will be a little bit of a bummer as it finally seemed to be resolving nicely, and then with the past two weeks completely off of it I thought that might be completely done.

Next race is two weeks from now, but I think I am going to reach out to RD and see if I can switch over to a relay and do the bike portion only. I have the course-record holder queued up for the swim leg, and a very good runner in the wings as well, so we ought to be able to clobber it if I can somehow manage to keep the rubber-side of my bicycle on the ground for a change. Silver lining is that it would be good to at least get a legit 1 hour FTP test under my belt. I have never actually done one.

2015-06-15 12:26 PM
in reply to: TankBoy

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Normally I'm not a big fan, but for your situation Rusty, you might try an elliptical trainer for a bit until you're more healed.  It removes the impact and gives you a smoother motion.  I'm assuming you can't do aqua-anything until you're less scraped up.



2015-06-15 12:50 PM
in reply to: spudone

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by spudone

Normally I'm not a big fan, but for your situation Rusty, you might try an elliptical trainer for a bit until you're more healed.  It removes the impact and gives you a smoother motion.  I'm assuming you can't do aqua-anything until you're less scraped up.

Hey Mark - thanks, that is a good idea. A few years when I was nursing a knee injury (d*mn, I am fragile!) I did spend A LOT of time aqua jogging with great results, and a little bit of time on the elliptical. With the elliptical I had varying results - in order to get a reasonable workout it seemed to cause undue stress in other areas, I think mostly since my body was so unfamiliar with it and I ramped it up to quickly. But yeah, you are right - I am supposed to stay out of the water (ESPECIALLY lake water) until this wrist is more fully healed - too big a risk of infection with all the skin loss, supposedly, and I am good about following doctor's orders. 

So, I think I might just sneak off to the gym a little later this week and see how a little elliptical goes - thanks for the suggestion!

2015-06-15 1:08 PM
in reply to: TankBoy

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Seattle
Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by TankBoy

Originally posted by spudone

Normally I'm not a big fan, but for your situation Rusty, you might try an elliptical trainer for a bit until you're more healed.  It removes the impact and gives you a smoother motion.  I'm assuming you can't do aqua-anything until you're less scraped up.

Hey Mark - thanks, that is a good idea. A few years when I was nursing a knee injury (d*mn, I am fragile!) I did spend A LOT of time aqua jogging with great results, and a little bit of time on the elliptical. With the elliptical I had varying results - in order to get a reasonable workout it seemed to cause undue stress in other areas, I think mostly since my body was so unfamiliar with it and I ramped it up to quickly. But yeah, you are right - I am supposed to stay out of the water (ESPECIALLY lake water) until this wrist is more fully healed - too big a risk of infection with all the skin loss, supposedly, and I am good about following doctor's orders. 

So, I think I might just sneak off to the gym a little later this week and see how a little elliptical goes - thanks for the suggestion!

Just out of curiosity, and maybe I missed this, but why not just do everything on the bike trainer?

The trainer is the first thing out coach recommends for maintaining fitness when injured. 

2015-06-15 1:15 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Seattle
Subject: RE: SBR "U"

I took what you guys said about my lack of adventuresome spirit to heart and climbed and snowboarded off of Mt. Adams (12,280') the second tallest peak in the state. 

Two years ago I was trying to balance track racing and mountain climbing and it was an epic failure. My legs were too heavy and tired to have the turnover and speed I needed on the track and then I guess my aerobic system was just overworked by the time I got to the mountain. This season however, trail running and mountaineering are working together really nicely! Uphill, weight bearing travel does seem to have some beneficial crossover for the ups and downs on the trail and vis versa. It's been really interesting! 

2015-06-15 3:51 PM
in reply to: TankBoy

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

RR here for anyone interested.

 

2015-06-15 6:19 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

First off - thanks to everyone for the thoughts/comments during my minor freak out about the sudden rise in temps.  It turned out to be over exaggerated - they had the temps right, but the rain moved in and helped to cool everything off.  So I swam/rode in dry but overcast conditions and then it rained for the entire run.

Bike - this was a disappointment.  Target was 190-200 for the first 30min, then pick it up and see how the body responds - but I needed to be mindful of HR.  This target should have had me around 150bpm and drifting up to about 155 near the end.  Ride started with HR avg right around 160 - and then it basically stuck there as an average each lap (15km on the Garmin) within 1-2 beats.  Problem for me was that power started close to 200 and held during the first 50km, but then started to fade badly.  Dropping all the way to 180 by the end - HR didn't really budge.  I had decided I was going to live off the course and that was a mistake because they weren't well organized and I ended up taking 2 gels, 1 banana, and no liquid calories.  Took 1.5 bottles of Nunn and 1 bottle of water.  I don't know if lack of calories had a direct impact or not, but after coming away from the second aid station with just 2 banana 1/2's I was worried about the run.

Run - Goal was 5min pace for the first 5km and then pick it up.  I gobbled down some calories and stayed on top of them during the run, but I didn't try to up the pace till the 10km mark, didn't go as planned and I basically ended up holding the 5min pace throughout  +/-  10sec certain km.  I was expecting to be able to run around 1:40 and if feeling good get under that, but I didn't have it (and the body is feeling it today).

I'll throw more details in the RR as soon as I can write it up.



2015-06-15 6:24 PM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

No racing, but had fun with Saturday's ride spending just about an hour of it right at or over threshold. Not my best power by a ways, but as far as percentages go it was really strong for me.

2015-06-15 6:25 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

Master
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Northern IL
Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by Asalzwed

I took what you guys said about my lack of adventuresome spirit to heart and climbed and snowboarded off of Mt. Adams (12,280') the second tallest peak in the state. 

Two years ago I was trying to balance track racing and mountain climbing and it was an epic failure. My legs were too heavy and tired to have the turnover and speed I needed on the track and then I guess my aerobic system was just overworked by the time I got to the mountain. This season however, trail running and mountaineering are working together really nicely! Uphill, weight bearing travel does seem to have some beneficial crossover for the ups and downs on the trail and vis versa. It's been really interesting! 

Great to see everything going so well this year!

2015-06-16 5:25 AM
in reply to: TankBoy

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
Originally posted by TankBoy

As for me I am sort of two steps forward and one step back.



Well that's forward motion, so that's good.

I am at a big turning point myself. I have been struggling since Oct 2013 with a nagging injury which in fact is probably 2 separate issues. One is achilles. That seems under control. The other is more complex that causes strains here and there and has been difficult to diagnose.

Ever HIM I have run since Miami I cramp up in the adductors, usually at the end of the bike, sometimes in the run. This has been happenig for a long time and it never affected my run until last year and seems is the source of multiple running injuries.

I spoke to my physio about it a dozen times and finally he acknowledged I had very weak adductors. The thing is since, they have been feeling ok and my cycling has been so much stronger than the past that I thought it would hopefully carry through and I didn't do anything special about it. Now for the last 10 days I can feel they are very tight and twice on a 10km training run they began to seize up which isn't a good sign.

Apparently when I really work my quads and hamstrings it pulls the adductors significantly and they either seize up or I pull something in the grown/hip area.

If I make it through my next race without walking I will be happy. If I don't, then I have to start a strengthening plan because as my physio finally admitted, I have the adductor strength of a 12 year old girl.

I am not signed up for anything this summer so I may include a lot of strength work if this doesn't work out like I want.

But the good news is I am happy with my bike. My weekly TTs have been going well and my long rides as well. I just need to decide how risk/conservative I want to be so I can run.

I also am planning to try something interesting. I plan to bring a flask of pickle juice.



2015-06-16 5:42 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
Originally posted by TankBoy
Don't let the outcomes from a single race (that again you jumped in to on a whim and without preparation) occlude your long-term agenda.




That there is gold.

We have a tendency to judge ourselves by individual race results. On top of that we race1,2,3 times a year and with all the factors associated with a race, probably never show our full potential.

Nicole is a few watts less today than she was a year ago. But guess what ? Those watts aren't gone forever, to the contrary they will come back and probably relatively easily.
Nicole tested on the run a few months ago. She has great VO2max and solid endurance. That isn't going anywhere negative at her age. There is only upside
Her swim has always been solid.
So she has the making of a great athlete if those ingredients can be brought out in sync. And confidence is a big part of it.
I would be more worried if I had never shows signs of potential. Nicole has shown many.

We reach a point where physiological improvements are harder and harder to come by. And obstacles are harder and harder to identify. But if you knock down a single obstacle you can make nice jumps in improvements. I have tried a few things with the legs, strength is probably the next thing to try. I will only get depressed when I feel I've tried everything without success




Edited by marcag 2015-06-16 5:59 AM
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