SBR "U" (Page 74)

Had a bit of a shyte show of a race; race report

it's hard to interpret data with trail races, especially since I haven't done this one before. But it felt terrible!

Ha! I'd had this down as maybe, depending on how I felt between some other things that were planned. So from the conversation was just more appreciative of getting something in.

Hey Ben - Yes, I am definitely conflating "recovery" with "easy," Or more specifically using the term "recovery" differently in two different contexts. It is interesting that I have never thought too much about it, but I use a sort of blended approach in training. For longer "volume-ish" rides like the one I called "Recovery" I use RPE as a guide, bracketed by HR. On the RPE scale "Zone 1" (RPE "Easy-Low, effort 1-3 out of 10) this ride falls well within that effort. When I do harder, shorter power-based intervals (I don't find power to be all that great of a metric to use over about an hour) that ride would have been a low "Base" effort bike, which is harder than "recovery" on the chart I use. So, I don't think I have actually ever actually done a "recovery ride" in my life, but I do incorporate "recovery intervals" into my power-based workouts. I suppose I need start calling my recovery rides "Easy Rides" instead.

As to why think the FTP impact is somewhat different, A ride like that one was around town with a tremendous amount of starting and stopping due to stop signs, red lights, intersection crossings and lots of short, sharp hills. There is is just a base "cost of doing business" on a ride like that. Because a person with a lower FTP has less space in which to work, the variability of the ride is going to be higher the lower the FTP is. But because the efforts are so short (and made often from a little micro rest while waiting for the light to change or traffic to clear) the RPE impact is still low. I am smart enough to know the maths probably does not bear that out, but hey! RPE is about perceptions of exertion, not actual measurements of effort, right. ha.

Hey - great to hear, Ben! I am guessing that must have been some sort of fast century? Were you able to crush some souls like only a good triathlete can?

I definitely do recovery style runs and they are quite different than easy runs.

I very rarely takes days completely off and I attribute a lot of this because I have learned how to properly execute a true recovery run. As long as I do it right, I feel it provides more benefits to me than a day off in most cases. 

Dude, I gots no idea how you measure anything anymore. So yeah, the maths probably doesn't bear that out. 

The super short efforts aren't necessarily bad, I go over into Z2 at times for recovery. Outside might briefly go higher when first going from a stop as well. But I still look at the data and a sense of overall. There is a cost of doing business, but I put that more in the choice keeping up with the others or not as opposed to redefining efforts. So I would have the choice of starting more easily, maybe not staying right with the group off the line, or I would have to redo the ride to better match up with my goals for it as opposed to redefining effort levels and such based on how the ride went.

Don't forget that I'm a fair amount taller and might weigh something close to 30% more than you do. So there is a bit more to drag around. 

Um, this was a recreational ride and I just wanted some cookies?

I thought it was pie?

Pie was after, cookies were on course.

Cycle to the Sun (Haleakala) for me this Saturday.  Pretty excited about it not really because I think I will perform well (I don't think my time will be anything great as  I'm still like ice cream too much), but because there will be a lot of friends doing the race this year and it should be a really fun time.  I have also plotted out myself a pretty sophisticated pacing plan based on power and HR, as well as expected power drop offs due to elevation gain.  Im very interested to see how it pans out.  Basically I have a general HR and power range goal for every 1000 feet I climb And will tape a cheat sheet to my stem.  Last year I think I did a really good job pacing but just didn't have as much knowledge on how much I should expect my power to drop as elevation rose.  Now that I do have an expected range (based on last years power data as well as other studies on the subject)...I'm wondering how much better I can pull this off.  It really is a 3.5 hour TT for the most part...and I'm hoping my smarts and experience wins out over some of my friends pure watts or w/kg advantage over me.  

Jason - I always get genuinely excited for you when you do this ride. Very cool that you have been able to put together a plan of attack that includes altitude adjustments. And I agree with you 100% - while an event like that requires a certain amount of brawn, it also takes a lot of brains as well. For me that is the best thing about ultra-type events and races (and I think Cycle to the Sun qualifies). It is certainly no longer the completion, or even the finish placement. What gets me out the door is the fun of putting together an intelligent, well-considered plan and then executing it.

Good luck this weekend. Can't wait to read all about it.

Sounds awesome Jason. I still have yet to be up Haleakala. When we were there last we were told the VW camper van would likely not make it up there so, that proves some of the "brawn."

Ben - I have been paying attention to KJ as well for the past year-and-a-half. The closest i have come to that kind of burn was at Mt. Mitchell back in May. 4446Kj, but that was a TSS of 483.2 - all part of that height and weight differential - ha.. FWIW I needed more than cookies and pie after that. immediately after I had 2 cokes, 2 BBQ sandwiches, slaw, and yes, a piece of pie. For dinner I had a steak, asparagus, mashed potatoes, a martini, and more than my fair share of a bottle of red wine. Finished with a bread pudding made out of Krispy Kreme doughnuts (being in the home town of KK and all). I have my MFP account synced with my TP account and after the ride the first message I got from my coach was "WTF did you eat afterwards????"

Wish Salty wore a smart recorder - would love to know what her burn was on her circumnavigation of Mt. St. Helens...

Had my "A" race 40k ITT last weekend....didn't go well (like not at all).  I have a RR posted: http://beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=533379&posts=1#M5124501

But if you want the tl;dr version, here you go: started out well for the first 15 minutes, started to fall apart, hit turn around and renewed my desire to push hard and try do well, completely fell apart, got a flat and was unable to finish

Pretty sure I've identified my biggest limiters for this race: confidence that I could actually hold my estimated FTP for an hour and mental strength to allow myself to hurt that badly for an hour. 

Going to start working with a coach shortly, so hopefully I can remedy some of this and salvage this race season, which has been a series of disappointments so far.  Hoping we can turn it around because I really do enjoy training and racing, and want to do well.

It's no Cycle to the Sun, but I have a 42k time trial on Sunday with 1600 feet of elevation change. believe it or not I have never actually done a 1 hour, all-out effort. Interested to see how it goes, but as I have never done one I am guessing maybe not so well. This morning I rolled a local fast group ride that I can usually hang with except when the sprinters jump the sprint zones. This time though I got shelled right out of the back the first time the ride turned up, and was completely dead-legged for the rest of it. I seriously was not sure I was going to make it home. When I got home I jammed as much fluids, electrolytes and calories in as I could manage, and then hobbled around the house for 30 minutes while my feet, calves, hamstrings, adductors, back, and hands (yes even my hands!) took turns cramping like crazy. In all my years of riding I have never experienced such. Since I cannot run or swim I have been riding a lot more than I usually do, and I did have a hard series of "Tap Out" intervals on the trainer yesterday that in all likelihood have me popped today. At least I hope that is all it is. Maybe I need to get out for a legit recovery ride... Heh.

Yes! They used to have a run to the sun but I am not sure if they do anymore. I believe a Seattleite had the female course record for a while, in fact. 

From a quick search, it doesn't look like it exists anymore. 

Ok sorry guys, back up a minute. So a "smart recorder" (as the youngun here I feel a little embarrassed that I am the least tech savvy...) records the rate at which you are burning calories in KJ?

Having done the ride socially I cannot imagine racing this.   Passing the entrance station and looking up at the switchbacks with no trees, knowing you still have what, 3000 feet to climb?  Pacing is so important there.  Good luck!

The "smart" part here is somehow getting power output, or energy rate. Power output is the energy rate. Watts equate to Joule/sec (or J/s). 1kilojoule (or kJ) is 1 kilocalorie, otherwise known as 1 Calorie (yes, the caps matters here). So it's working with the relationship of the big pool of energy (Joules or Calories), the rate of expenditure (power in Watts), and the duration or time spent.

The energy expressions go directly to the power values, whereas the TSS is less direct as that is stress and needs to have a reference for how hard something is. This reference is FTP. Quantifies how hard something was as a percent of this point and how long you did it for.

Have I told you guys about the run I am doing in August?

It's 105 miles on the PCT in 3 days. Next to the JMT portion (which has Mt. Whitney...) it is the hardest. There will be 25K elevation gain and loss.

So, speaking of burn,  I am starting to think about the food I will be bringing. More important, how much food.  Something I have noticed about myself is that I don't seem to have many issues eating while running but when I am done, and the day after, I am not hungry at all. For instance after a marathon I eat really normally and maybe even less than usual the following day. But that third day, for some reason, is when it hits me. So I am not sure what it will be like for a multi-day adventure like this. 

In running, it's one thing to establish baselines on a relatively flat and windless conditions and applying that to other similar conditions but how do you translate that to all the different scenarios?

in a nutshell, yes, with varying degrees of accuracy depending on what method you use to determine (or just estimate) your resting metabolic rate. I have found watching that alongside my caloric intake to be useful in helping me target and get to my best "racing weight" in a reasonable and somewhat responsible manner. FWIW Racing weight is not necessarily a healthy weight, nor one I personally can maintain month after month, but it is good to know where you race the best. For me I gain right at 2 seconds per mile on the run down to about 144lbs, and at 142 or less my performance actually decreases. Walking around winter weight is around 156lbs, but I have twice in my life ballooned up to mid170's. Running is no fun then.

for me not drinking any calories is the biggest trick to getting lean, (not much fun either!) but I have also found (for me) a calorie is a calorie. Lots of debate about that though.

Without a direct power measurement, this could possibly be ball-parked by some other means. Using the conversion of pace in meters/sec is sorta close to power in W/kg one could approximate for pacing. That would be harder with more hills and all the terrain changes of being off-road though. HR could help some by having that and having flat ground equivalents, though this also adds in the lag issues of using HR and is really adding in a lot of approximations & conversions.

That was one of the first things I had thought about. had trying to figure out to get someone to carry in a Sams Club size box of Cliff bars every day (48 count?)! I eat a lot after the bigger training days and it does help though other factors may still have me tired and wanting the next day. Also guessing that I'm at least 35% bigger so need at least that much more food or be that much more economical in movement.