Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED (Page 82)

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2012-07-05 9:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED
I don't think there is anything wrong with going into a race "just to finish". I kind of did my first IM with that mentality in the back of my mind..I really didn't know what to expect. I remember standing with my mom before the race start and feeling really calm (which never happens). I had just resolved by race day to take it as it came and finish. Going into my second I have a bit of a different mentality and feel like I have set a realistic goal that isn't about just finishing. I agree that a lot of people probably go into these events undertrained but feel like they trained hard and in truth they did train hard, but maybe not hard enough to reach the goal they had in mind. I think a lot of people have a disconnect between their training and what they expect to happen on race day. Think about the demographic of a lot of people who are starting triathlon these days: a large portion of them don't have a significant in training/racing and the reality of what training means to how you race. It's hard to tell someone who tells you they have a goal of a 1:45 half marathon that that is unrealistic when you know they run 10min miles. (slightly exaggerated but you get what I mean). I think a lot of people think race day will magically have great results and it is demoralizing to see that not happen when they have trained 8-10 hrs a week when maybe they should have been training 12-14 but they still put sweat and tears into their training. It's difficult to hear the hard truth and training for a first tri or HIM/IM is a personal endeavor where you sacrifice time and generally care how you perform so I can see how having someone tell you "that just wasn't good enough" stings and people take offense. I don't see tri that way since I feel I have reasonable expectations and and understanding of how training and racing work from my experiences over the years. The example I would give is from my work/school where I was on call overnight and worked hard and I've worked hard for the past 7 years to learn and become competent in medicine. I admitted a patient and felt I did a pretty solid job only to get completely reemed out the next morning for missing something. It was extremely harsh and had I not tried and put together my work up so well in my head, I probably wouldnt have been so upset, but I truly felt like I put the best I had forward and still fell short and it ended in me crying in front of my staff because she pretty brutally told me I missed the boat. I just use that as my reasoning for being able to understand how someone new to tri or HIM/IM would take hearing that they didn't do a good enough job/train hard enough/etc. I do think that people need to buck up and hear the hard truth in order to really improve, but i think people's instinctive response is to react with offense and then think about it over the next few hours/days/weeks. Just like now I see that my staff was right to bluntly tell me I was wrong and confront me and I learned a valuable lesson that I won't forget, but 2 months ago I was angry and upset. Human nature, I think. Basically all of that to say "ya, I agree people need to put their big boy pants on and suck it up, but at the same time I can empathize why they get so worked up". (typed via iPhone, but I wanted to put my thoughts in, so I apologize for the clump of words).

2012-07-05 9:28 PM
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2012-07-05 9:33 PM
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2012-07-05 9:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED
GoFaster - 2012-07-05 10:10 PM

Hi - my name is Neil, and I've blown up at the HIM distance on both attempts. 

I totally agree with Jason, the first time I raced HIM, it was in my second year.  I had no real idea what to expect, and I really wasn't prepared enough - not just from training that season but building up with a few years of endurance in the body.  The second go last year was a bitter disappointment, because I'm still not sure what went wrong - two additonal years and lots more km and I managed a whopping 2min improvement.  I'm hoping a lot more focus on swim fitness, some over distance rides, and more time running will pay off this year.  We'll find out in 8 weeks.

On a side note I don't know how you guys train for a full.  I know that my body just does not seem to be prepared to tackle something of that distance, with the training that's required.  I think I would fall apart...Each time I do a "long" ride for me, I gain a little more respect for everyone who puts in the time and km to race IM.  I still have doubts about my ability to run well (heck, just run), coming off the bike at the HIM distance.

 

Neil - I am probably in the minority here (in fact I got eaten up for eluding to this in the Iron distance forum a while back) but I have found the HIM distance to be much harder than the IM distance, both in adequately training and execution. Granted I have only done one IM, but I have done my fair share of endurance races that are longer in both time and distance, and I have never been as shelled by them as I have been by my best/worst HIM efforts. It might just be the way I am spec'd out, but it is kind of like how I don't mind running 400's or 5k's. 800's/mile repeats however, not so much - I find them to be much more difficult both physically and psychologically.

2012-07-05 9:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED
tri808 - 2012-07-05 8:41 PM

I feel that I can say this here...but would get murdered in the main forums.

IMHO, over 50% of the people who even attempt a HIM, are not adequately trained.  So when someone asks, why did I blow up on the run...the answer more times than not really is "you don't have enough bike or run fitness to avoid a blow up".  I think too many people like to sugar coat it and say..."oh, you probably just went too hard on the bike, or you didn't take in enough calories", etc, etc.  Some of that may be true...but the underlying reason is they don't have enough fitness to bike 56 miles then run 13.1...after swimming.  Plain and simple.

I think that I was adequately trained to COMPLETE my first HIM, but not RACE. Had you told me that I was undertrained, I would have told you that I used a BT program, so I must have been trained!

I swam 16/80 in my AG, which is honestly slower than I could have gone, but I went conservatively on that. I used the same conservative method for the bike, and I rode to an embarrassing 60/80 in my AG, but then ran 23/80 in my AG. I was much more confident in my swim and run than I was on the bike, and I paced accordingly. 

I'm HOPING I'm on track for a much better race on Sept 30, but we'll see. I'm doing 3 HIMs between now and the end of October, with the middle one being my A race. I think I might push one to total implosion... 

2012-07-05 9:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED
Complete change of topic, and I don't wan't to break the protocol of the group relative to TDF spoilers, but HOLY MOLY if you ever want a textbook example of the importance of bike handling skills, check out the replays featuring today's stage winner - that is fantastic stuff right there!

2012-07-06 12:14 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED
Just talked to the wife of a friend and training buddy. 2x kona qualifier, including his year. Been having weird heart issues, was finally diagnosed with a blockage on Tuesday. Today he had a "minor" heart attack in the ER, so they did an angio today. Found 99% blockage only reason he survived was (I think) a valve abnormality. Just goes to show you never know.....
2012-07-06 1:46 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED

I should clarify with my post, that it's perfectly okay to enter a race "undertrained".  Maybe that's not even the word to use.  My main point is that some people expect to race a certain way, when clearly their fitness dictates otherwise, and then cannot come to realize it...and try to blame it on other things.

If you enter a HIM without sufficient fitness to run the whole HM, you accept it, and plan accordingly...there is nothing wrong with that.  You do your absolute best...and that's all you can ask for1

If and when I do my first IM, I likely will not be trained enough to "race" it.  I'll likely do some walking, and have to take it easy on the bike.  In fact, I may never have enough fitness to race an IM to my potential.  Again...nothing wrong with that.  But unless I do something really dumb, any troubles I have will likely be due to the lack of fitness to race for 11+ hours.

2012-07-06 6:03 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED
tri808 - 2012-07-06 2:46 AM

I should clarify with my post, that it's perfectly okay to enter a race "undertrained".  Maybe that's not even the word to use.  My main point is that some people expect to race a certain way, when clearly their fitness dictates otherwise, and then cannot come to realize it...and try to blame it on other things.

If you enter a HIM without sufficient fitness to run the whole HM, you accept it, and plan accordingly...there is nothing wrong with that.  You do your absolute best...and that's all you can ask for1

If and when I do my first IM, I likely will not be trained enough to "race" it.  I'll likely do some walking, and have to take it easy on the bike.  In fact, I may never have enough fitness to race an IM to my potential.  Again...nothing wrong with that.  But unless I do something really dumb, any troubles I have will likely be due to the lack of fitness to race for 11+ hours.

 

Yes i perfectly expected to run a 1h45m HM after a 2h18m bike on 60 miles a month running....am i pretty??

 

I can laugh about it now, it was not so amusing the day it was going on.

2012-07-06 6:11 AM
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2012-07-06 6:13 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED
tri808 - 2012-07-05 8:41 PM

I feel that I can say this here...but would get murdered in the main forums.

IMHO, over 50% of the people who even attempt a HIM, are not adequately trained.  So when someone asks, why did I blow up on the run...the answer more times than not really is "you don't have enough bike or run fitness to avoid a blow up".  I think too many people like to sugar coat it and say..."oh, you probably just went too hard on the bike, or you didn't take in enough calories", etc, etc.  Some of that may be true...but the underlying reason is they don't have enough fitness to bike 56 miles then run 13.1...after swimming.  Plain and simple.

It's amazing how people will make excuses and avoid the truth.  Anytime someone asks a question like that, I immediately look at their logs, or ask for their training information...because 90% of the time the answer is right there.  It may not be the warm and fuzzy BT answer...but wouldn't you want to know how to fix the problem the next time around rather than being encouraged by wrong answers just to make you feel better?

The other 10% of the time when the athlete is sufficiently trained...now that makes for a good discussion because we can actually try to discuss other things that may have gone wrong.

But then again...this is BEGINNER TRIATHLETE right?

 

I wish i could express myself on the internet like you do, whenever i do it i come across as a pompous douche.  My wife always tells me..."use the kids gloves Rudy".  I just can never put my thoughts to the keyboard right.  But you hit on what i was trying to say, so thanks for the post.

There is nothing wrong with training to finish, hell i spent 3 years doing it for most distances, and i guess when it comes to my running and swimming i still do it now. The problem we have here in this mentor group is that we actually listen to each other and have great conversation, points and counterpoints, with a whole schitload of respect sprinkled on, something that the main forum has been missing, so while we may be able to speak frank to each other, the general population will have an issue with the tone that is taken.

Jason, can you type what i am trying to say, lol

2012-07-06 8:03 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED

TankBoy - 2012-07-05 10:48 PM Complete change of topic, and I don't wan't to break the protocol of the group relative to TDF spoilers, but HOLY MOLY if you ever want a textbook example of the importance of bike handling skills, check out the replays featuring today's stage winner - that is fantastic stuff right there!

I hadn't even realized it was Greipel (sp?) at the time, I just remember seeing a Lotto rider looking like he was using Farrar as springboard to stay on his bike.  It was quite the save - but then to win the stage, wow!

I missed what happened after the stage, but it looked like Tyler wanted to go after one of the riders - I just caught a glimpse of it whiel doing something else. 

2012-07-06 8:12 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED
TankBoy - 2012-07-05 9:58 PM
tri808 - 2012-07-05 8:41 PM

I feel that I can say this here...but would get murdered in the main forums.

IMHO, over 50% of the people who even attempt a HIM, are not adequately trained.  So when someone asks, why did I blow up on the run...the answer more times than not really is "you don't have enough bike or run fitness to avoid a blow up".  I think too many people like to sugar coat it and say..."oh, you probably just went too hard on the bike, or you didn't take in enough calories", etc, etc.  Some of that may be true...but the underlying reason is they don't have enough fitness to bike 56 miles then run 13.1...after swimming.  Plain and simple.

It's amazing how people will make excuses and avoid the truth.  Anytime someone asks a question like that, I immediately look at their logs, or ask for their training information...because 90% of the time the answer is right there.  It may not be the warm and fuzzy BT answer...but wouldn't you want to know how to fix the problem the next time around rather than being encouraged by wrong answers just to make you feel better?

The other 10% of the time when the athlete is sufficiently trained...now that makes for a good discussion because we can actually try to discuss other things that may have gone wrong.

But then again...this is BEGINNER TRIATHLETE right?

Jason, you are such a douche.

Even so I find it difficult to disagree with your point of view. The thing is I have no problem with someone going into a race undertrained - Lord knows I have probably raced under prepared more often than not. It is just funny that it is so difficult for folks to admit it. I think I said it earlier, but I do think that the more under-trained you are the more nutrition, hydration, pacing, etc. matters. The more fit you are the more "space" you have to err in these other areas. So I can make a choice - do the work to increase my fitness, or obsess about the decision to take in 225 calories vs. 250 per hour on the bike. Even though the "bike more," "swim more," and "run more" advice always seems too simple and trite, it is pretty good advice. Especially if by "more" means smarter/harder.

Just a theory, I could be WAY wrong.

Awesome discussion - and you're hitting on the head where I would take Jason's post next.  The key with some folks is setting realistic expectations for how the day will go especially if training hasn't been optimal or you have weak link.  Some people are in denial and where you get the 'i wonder why I blew up on the run'.  Well, duh -  you just aren't really taking hard look in the mirror before lining up and letting go of the competitive side.

But other times things happen and it's not just a matter of not being 'fit enough' or 'not doing enough training' - i think taking that attitude too quickly which can make it seem as though it's not worth lining up at the start if you haven't done X volume or certain intensity. 

I am a weak swimmer and cyclist and making improvements little by little over time. I put in all of the training but I am still not great at the sports themselves.  Doing races for my own satisfaction and seeing how far i've come is good enough for me.  But then, I tend to use all sorts of training feedback to understand where I should be for pacing and where I think I can make gains and overall setting of my race strategy.  Realistic expectations.  So very important.

2012-07-06 8:13 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED
tri808 - 2012-07-06 2:46 AM

I should clarify with my post, that it's perfectly okay to enter a race "undertrained".  Maybe that's not even the word to use.  My main point is that some people expect to race a certain way, when clearly their fitness dictates otherwise, and then cannot come to realize it...and try to blame it on other things.

If you enter a HIM without sufficient fitness to run the whole HM, you accept it, and plan accordingly...there is nothing wrong with that.  You do your absolute best...and that's all you can ask for1

If and when I do my first IM, I likely will not be trained enough to "race" it.  I'll likely do some walking, and have to take it easy on the bike.  In fact, I may never have enough fitness to race an IM to my potential.  Again...nothing wrong with that.  But unless I do something really dumb, any troubles I have will likely be due to the lack of fitness to race for 11+ hours.

Oh, you said it already!   Sorry for the repetition!

2012-07-06 8:45 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED

 

On the topic of improving TT.

There is a thread started this morning on "School me on power". Nothing wrong with a Newbie asking and people helping. But this topic has been asked 10000 times.

There has to be a way for people to easily find this info and be politely directed towards it. Rather than dilute information is 10000 threads would it not be best to have it all in one or two threads ?

I'll typically do a search, try for 5 minutes or so to look through the results and if they answer isn't there, ask.

What do you think ?

Now, speaking of repetitive threads, at least Lance and doping aren't 50% of the threads in TT

 

 

2012-07-06 9:46 AM
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2012-07-06 10:00 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED
Lots of great talk folks. Great job on good forum discussion. I am not as good at articulating my thoughts as some of you guys, but I'll give it a try.To me racing is proper pacing for the training I have completed. The good execution part factors in the nutrition and adjustments in race conditions.I have done my fair share of blowing up in races and in training. Not so much in the second half of my racing life. I do want to point out that being unprepared you may finished the race quite well but sustained injury. This happen to me on my first half iron on returning to the sport. I was well prepared but during the race I pushed too hard and suffered a severe muscle spasms at the end of the race. My aerobic capacity was very good but my muscles still had not adjusted to pushing a hard race pace. Just some of my thoughts. Have a great day training.
2012-07-06 10:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED
ChrisM - 2012-07-06 1:14 AMJust talked to the wife of a friend and training buddy. 2x kona qualifier, including his year. Been having weird heart issues, was finally diagnosed with a blockage on Tuesday. Today he had a "minor" heart attack in the ER, so they did an angio today. Found 99% blockage only reason he survived was (I think) a valve abnormality. Just goes to show you never know.....
Chris sorry to here this. Your friend is in my thoughts and prayers.
2012-07-06 10:29 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED
marcag - 2012-07-06 9:45 AM

 

On the topic of improving TT.

There is a thread started this morning on "School me on power". Nothing wrong with a Newbie asking and people helping. But this topic has been asked 10000 times.

There has to be a way for people to easily find this info and be politely directed towards it. Rather than dilute information is 10000 threads would it not be best to have it all in one or two threads ?

I'll typically do a search, try for 5 minutes or so to look through the results and if they answer isn't there, ask.

What do you think ?

Now, speaking of repetitive threads, at least Lance and doping aren't 50% of the threads in TT

If you make the search simple and put it right on the damn page, people will do this. I LOVE that about Slowtwitch. Lots of BS to dig through (which is often funny!) but some really great info, that's easily searched.

2012-07-06 10:54 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED

tasr - 2012-07-06 10:27 AM
ChrisM - 2012-07-06 1:14 AMJust talked to the wife of a friend and training buddy. 2x kona qualifier, including his year. Been having weird heart issues, was finally diagnosed with a blockage on Tuesday. Today he had a "minor" heart attack in the ER, so they did an angio today. Found 99% blockage only reason he survived was (I think) a valve abnormality. Just goes to show you never know.....
Chris sorry to here this. Your friend is in my thoughts and prayers.

 

Wow, this is the 2nd time in 3 days I hear about this.

A local guy, part of our tri club did Tremblant 70.3 I think he finished in about 4:50ish. He wasn't feeling well at the end, so they directed him to the medical tent. A few minutes later the doc said he was having a heart attack. They put him in an ambulance WITH the dr, oxygen...sirens...the whole 9 yards.

They operated and put 'stints?'. 43 years old I think. He wrote a great race report.

Some of the last pictures of him on the course, he is holding his chest. He brought up the topic of when do you just HTFU vs listening to what your body is saying.

2012-07-06 11:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED

tasr - 2012-07-06 5:27 AM
ChrisM - 2012-07-06 1:14 AMJust talked to the wife of a friend and training buddy. 2x kona qualifier, including his year. Been having weird heart issues, was finally diagnosed with a blockage on Tuesday. Today he had a "minor" heart attack in the ER, so they did an angio today. Found 99% blockage only reason he survived was (I think) a valve abnormality. Just goes to show you never know.....
Chris sorry to here this. Your friend is in my thoughts and prayers.

x2

2012-07-06 11:52 AM
in reply to: #4296920

Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED
marcag - 2012-07-06 3:45 AM

 

On the topic of improving TT.

There is a thread started this morning on "School me on power". Nothing wrong with a Newbie asking and people helping. But this topic has been asked 10000 times.

There has to be a way for people to easily find this info and be politely directed towards it. Rather than dilute information is 10000 threads would it not be best to have it all in one or two threads ?

I'll typically do a search, try for 5 minutes or so to look through the results and if they answer isn't there, ask.

What do you think ?

Now, speaking of repetitive threads, at least Lance and doping aren't 50% of the threads in TT

 

 

I actually don't mind that questions get asked over and over again.  Well...certain questions anyway.  Not so much about flip turns, counting laps, etc.  But other threads like power, tri or road bike, do I need race wheels, should I do a run/walk...I don't mind seeing those pop up.

Why...well, it allows for discussion, it gets newbies involved in the forums and allows people who just recently learned about these topics to discuss it.  One of the best ways to learn something, is to try and teach it.  We all want more "experts" on these forums, and the way you gain more experience as a poster is to get involved and ask/answer some of these questions that get rehashed.  Likely, someone will post some slighly off info, but that's when more experienced folks chime in and correct it. 

What I really would like to see moved out of tri talk...or like someone else mentioned, tag them so you can filter them out if you want, are threads like...

bike porn
Yay, I joined the club
....happened at the pool today (or any type of rant)
Lance anything
PSAs
Which IM should I do?

All of these threads have a place in the forum...they just clutter some of the other threads that tend to get less traffic, but could result in better discussion if we could just filter for them.  I know sometimes I like a good bike porn thread...but sometimes I'm just interested in talking training...even if it's something I've talked about many times before.

My 2 cents

2012-07-06 2:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED

(sorry for anyone here that has one, but.....)

No more IM tattoo threads!!!!  I am not anti tattoo by any stretch, but some  of these IM tattoos people put on their bodies.....  Oooofa!  Then people fawn over them. 

2012-07-06 2:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED

910 question ... I thought my elevation numbers were a little high, and when I enabled elevation corrections turns out I was right.  But I notice uploading to strava I get the same funky elevations (like my run yesterday was pancake flat out an back but strava has me losing  a bunch of feet of elevation)    Is there a way in-watch to enable corrections for all workouts, or does it have to be  done per workout?  If the latter, that's a pain

2012-07-06 2:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED
ChrisM - 2012-07-06 9:27 AM

910 question ... I thought my elevation numbers were a little high, and when I enabled elevation corrections turns out I was right.  But I notice uploading to strava I get the same funky elevations (like my run yesterday was pancake flat out an back but strava has me losing  a bunch of feet of elevation)    Is there a way in-watch to enable corrections for all workouts, or does it have to be  done per workout?  If the latter, that's a pain

Not sure.  My garmin 500 was acting up yesterday while riding hill repeats.  Got the first climb right, then the second and third climb it was reading it much flatter than it really was...mayb 350 feet per climb instead of 1350.  After reseting the workout, I tested it on my drive home and it was reading normally again.

When I uploaded to strava, it reflected the incorrect garmin data.  When I did the elevation correction, it did a fairly good job of correcting it, but overestimated by about 1000 feet.  I guess since the ride is covered by trees, the gps signal isn't perfect, and I think when I it tracked me as "off the road" it assumed I rode 35 feet down the cliff and back up more than a few times.

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