login
How can I get faster? (Page 12)
-
No new posts
|
 2013-12-10 1:00 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
 Seattle |  Subject: RE: How can I get faster?Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by trishie Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by switch LB, I understand that you're very proud of your son, and you should be. He is a fantastic triathlete. I've listened to you talk about him and his training for hours. I've exchanged hundreds of emails and texts with you where you have discussed his training in detail. The problem I have in this scenario, and what I was alluding to before, is I think after awhile it seems like your agenda is to pimp his stats. Here we are in a thread for someone who is thirty, works full time, and has a toddler, looking for standalone marathon help, but you've given us your sixteen yo's 5K, 10K and now mile swim times. If you think what your son is doing is relevant in swimming, why not just discuss the parts that you think would translate? You insist it's applicable for the rest of us? Cool. Let's discuss how that would scale, maybe in a different thread that's dedicated to swimming--there are lots of those. Maybe you could tell us how you have applied it to your swimming situation, as a swimmer who has times much more relevant to a lot of beginner triathletes than a 16 yo swimming the times your son swims. Let's hear about your success implementing it--that would probably be really helpful to a lot of us.
Switch, its fine if you are tired of it, but I think it is more your job to sift through and pick out what you think is useful information, it isn't LB's job to only present information that you think is useful. I agree with Switch (and I suspect I'm not the only one). This isn't the first time he's talked about his son. Most of the time he posts LB states his son's 5K and 10K times. I can't remember a recent one of his posts where he provided any information OTHER than what his son/ son's coaches were doing. That's great and I understand that he's proud of his son (who isn't proud of their kid?) but what a 16 year old does with a coach for shorter distances isn't that relevant to most of us on BT. From what I've read, most people on BT are adults. Most of us work full time. Many of us have children. The majority of us saw 16 a long time ago. So LB's son can beat everyone here at a sprint tri? Great. My question was how can I (ME) run a faster marathon? It's like telling me that Ryan Hall is fast, so maybe I should train just like Ryan Hall. Doing everything they do just because they're fast would indeed be ridiculous. However, understanding their rationale for doing all the work they do can be quite helpful as we would then be able to better incorporate such things into our own training as it was needed. Maybe a lot of it, maybe some of it, maybe none depending on applicability to development. It really depends on what the person needs, and it's not necessarily going to be based only on how fast one is. Maybe it won't really be needed now, but later it could be more useful. It won't be the same for all time even if one doesn't get to an "elite" level. The drill work mentioned is one idea, as economy applies to everyone. How much, and which ones? I couldn't say for sure beyond at least much of the time should still be spent running. From there probably finding things that they do that could fit in with this, such as how to use the hills in various ways. And Trishie, I see the 200 mpm being thrown around a lot, but does that really seem representative? In looking back over logs, I would have actually said 130-140 is more normal year round and building up to a peak of 200 leading into a race. I'm not actually trying to change anyone's mind with that, just making sure the picture is accurate. That actualy does change things quite a bit. At what mileage threshold do you believe things to change? |
| 2013-12-10 1:12 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran  5722   | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by brigby1 That actualy does change things quite a bit. I'll buy the beers for everyone if LB says "more volume" |
| 2013-12-10 1:13 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Originally posted by yazmaster Originally posted by Asalzwed You guys, I'll be the first to admit, I'm NOT a coach of anyone of a National caliber. I'm just a mediocre runner, looking to improve. I think we have all agreed it's pretty clear there is no one way that works for every person. So, people sharing their experiences here, in one place and having a discussion about what has worked and what hasn't is probably one of the best things we can do. Everyone's experiences matter. If we can lose the attitude and treat each other with some respect I think we can get a hellufalot more out of this than trying to be "right."
I think part of the problem is that the perspective voiced by LB and MRicci (especially the anaerobic paced stuff) has not been recommended in 'typical' marathon training programs.
I know from having been a pure marathon runner for years and participating on many forums as well that essentially nobody recommended anaerobic runs as an important (or even peripheral) part of marathon training for AG level, and even for elites, used sparingly. (I've seen them to 1min on/1min off stuff, but even that's aerobic paced for them.)
The kind of high-anaerobic speed training or even the football-style sled/tire dragging or pushing against someone just isn't in the typical repertoire of marathon training (or even mentioned by Pfitzinger or Daniels as regular parts of training), and thus should be questioned when they are recommended for training. I'm more than happy to explore new concepts of training, but you really have to back it up with more than "well my son is a super-fast short-course triathlete, so it MUST be the same methods for marathon" and particularly when you're not a pure marathon runner yourself or never have been.
The risks of such high-intensity running is very significant, and really has to be weighed against the advantages of doing it. I might still be 'old-school', but it's hard for me to see the role of anaerobic running for a marathon runner. For an ITU short-course triathlete, sure, go for it, but for a standalone marathon runner, you really need volume and longer (but still hard) intervals - makes sense in terms of specificity.
I actually HAVE done overspeed (downhill sprint) training and the sled-drag / sled push training myself, but it was expressly for a stint as a backup running back in my early HS days (I quit quickly, as I found I liked the running more than the football), but it was in no means meant to translate to endurance running. Again, makes sense from a specificity standpoint - you're a pure sprinter as a football player, but never run at 5k or marathon pace, ever. From what you have written here it appears you have taken alot of what has been said out of context. The idea of the drills, including the tire dragging (it's a very light tire, BTW, just enough to make you lean), overspeed, etc. is meant to clean up form and add efficiency through faster turnover. Speed at any distance is nothing more then leg speed and stride length....at longer and longer diatnces it becomes about how long you can keep it up (endurance). Better eficiency helps, and more strength helps. One day if (10 years from now if I have my way) he wants to, "that guy" will run a marathon, and we'll see what all of this other training does for his speed. (but you already know what it will do). It's counterintuitive to say that it can't help anyone else, at any level, or age, or distance. One of his training buddies just did his first HM....I'll have to have "that guy" ask how many miles he was putting in, but I know he was drilling and doing alot of overspeed work, and no way his coach would let him trash his legs with a ton of mileage at his age .....1:08. Yes, he's younger than almost all of us at 18......but he didn't get faster by just running more miles. It's funny, because people will holler that it's not all genetics, it's about the work, but then when they see the work they say it's all about genetics, and age, and time available, or any number of things. Edited by Left Brain 2013-12-10 1:22 PM |
| 2013-12-10 1:18 PM in reply to: Asalzwed |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by trishie Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by switch LB, I understand that you're very proud of your son, and you should be. He is a fantastic triathlete. I've listened to you talk about him and his training for hours. I've exchanged hundreds of emails and texts with you where you have discussed his training in detail. The problem I have in this scenario, and what I was alluding to before, is I think after awhile it seems like your agenda is to pimp his stats. Here we are in a thread for someone who is thirty, works full time, and has a toddler, looking for standalone marathon help, but you've given us your sixteen yo's 5K, 10K and now mile swim times. If you think what your son is doing is relevant in swimming, why not just discuss the parts that you think would translate? You insist it's applicable for the rest of us? Cool. Let's discuss how that would scale, maybe in a different thread that's dedicated to swimming--there are lots of those. Maybe you could tell us how you have applied it to your swimming situation, as a swimmer who has times much more relevant to a lot of beginner triathletes than a 16 yo swimming the times your son swims. Let's hear about your success implementing it--that would probably be really helpful to a lot of us.
Switch, its fine if you are tired of it, but I think it is more your job to sift through and pick out what you think is useful information, it isn't LB's job to only present information that you think is useful. I agree with Switch (and I suspect I'm not the only one). This isn't the first time he's talked about his son. Most of the time he posts LB states his son's 5K and 10K times. I can't remember a recent one of his posts where he provided any information OTHER than what his son/ son's coaches were doing. That's great and I understand that he's proud of his son (who isn't proud of their kid?) but what a 16 year old does with a coach for shorter distances isn't that relevant to most of us on BT. From what I've read, most people on BT are adults. Most of us work full time. Many of us have children. The majority of us saw 16 a long time ago. So LB's son can beat everyone here at a sprint tri? Great. My question was how can I (ME) run a faster marathon? It's like telling me that Ryan Hall is fast, so maybe I should train just like Ryan Hall. Doing everything they do just because they're fast would indeed be ridiculous. However, understanding their rationale for doing all the work they do can be quite helpful as we would then be able to better incorporate such things into our own training as it was needed. Maybe a lot of it, maybe some of it, maybe none depending on applicability to development. It really depends on what the person needs, and it's not necessarily going to be based only on how fast one is. Maybe it won't really be needed now, but later it could be more useful. It won't be the same for all time even if one doesn't get to an "elite" level. The drill work mentioned is one idea, as economy applies to everyone. How much, and which ones? I couldn't say for sure beyond at least much of the time should still be spent running. From there probably finding things that they do that could fit in with this, such as how to use the hills in various ways. And Trishie, I see the 200 mpm being thrown around a lot, but does that really seem representative? In looking back over logs, I would have actually said 130-140 is more normal year round and building up to a peak of 200 leading into a race. I'm not actually trying to change anyone's mind with that, just making sure the picture is accurate. That actualy does change things quite a bit. At what mileage threshold do you believe things to change? I don't think I could say.....but I know plenty of people who run very fast marathons on 200 mpm.....so there is no way I could get on board with the idea that the only way to get faster from there is to run more. I know you can't find anywhere that I said "run less". I respect the distance and the miles needed.....but once you have a real solid 200mpm base (which Trishie may not have based on that post) there is quite a bit of room to get faster using other methods IMO. |
| 2013-12-10 1:23 PM in reply to: marcag |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain I'll buy the beers for everyone if LB says "more volume" Originally posted by brigby1 I would have actually said 130-140 is more normal year round and building up to a peak of 200 leading into a race. I'm not actually trying to change anyone's mind with that, just making sure the picture is accurate. That actualy does change things quite a bit. You don't have enough money. |
| 2013-12-10 1:38 PM in reply to: mikericci |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Originally posted by mikericci There are many many top runners: Japanese, Kenyan, American and so on that live here in Boulder that use the Alter G at 3:00 minutes per mile. this is completely different than what LB is talking about, correct ? LB is talking about this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhgSrsw5Jp8 Alter G is this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OMSa-k3LxA |
| 2013-12-10 1:40 PM in reply to: 0 |
| Seattle | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by mikericci There are many many top runners: Japanese, Kenyan, American and so on that live here in Boulder that use the Alter G at 3:00 minutes per mile. this is completely different than what LB is talking about, correct ? LB is talking about this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhgSrsw5Jp8Alter G is this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OMSa-k3LxAI was going to ask that too. I assume it is. Our club has access to one (an alter G) but it's used more for rehabilitation. Edited by Asalzwed 2013-12-10 1:42 PM |
| 2013-12-10 1:53 PM in reply to: Asalzwed |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Yeah, different.......this is what I'm talking about. As you can see, here is another teenager going really fast so it's really not applicable. (pink font, pink font. pink font) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtdBtda_NLM
|
| 2013-12-10 2:14 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 2261 Ridgeland, Mississippi | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Here's a pretty decent triathlete that does some work with these crazy treadmills Edited by msteiner 2013-12-10 2:14 PM |
| 2013-12-10 2:42 PM in reply to: msteiner |
Pro 5169 Burbs | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? I never said I was running 200 mpm. My training plan peaked at 55-56 mpw, and I did a couple weeks at around that. |
| 2013-12-10 2:43 PM in reply to: trishie |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Originally posted by trishie I never said I was running 200 mpm. My training plan peaked at 55-56 mpw, and I did a couple weeks at around that. You need more volume. |
| 2013-12-10 2:44 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| Seattle | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by trishie I never said I was running 200 mpm. My training plan peaked at 55-56 mpw, and I did a couple weeks at around that. You need more volume.
|
| 2013-12-10 2:51 PM in reply to: Asalzwed |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by trishie I never said I was running 200 mpm. My training plan peaked at 55-56 mpw, and I did a couple weeks at around that. You need more volume.
HA!!! These threads are excellent!! |
| 2013-12-10 2:54 PM in reply to: marcag |
Regular 5477 LHOTP | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain I'll buy the beers for everyone if LB says "more volume" Originally posted by brigby1 I would have actually said 130-140 is more normal year round and building up to a peak of 200 leading into a race. I'm not actually trying to change anyone's mind with that, just making sure the picture is accurate. That actualy does change things quite a bit. I'll take some Bell's Two Hearted :) |
| 2013-12-10 2:56 PM in reply to: switch |
Master 2563 University Park, MD | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? |
| 2013-12-10 3:46 PM in reply to: switch |
Expert 1394 Wilmington, NC | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Originally posted by switch Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain I'll buy the beers for everyone if LB says "more volume" Originally posted by brigby1 I would have actually said 130-140 is more normal year round and building up to a peak of 200 leading into a race. I'm not actually trying to change anyone's mind with that, just making sure the picture is accurate. That actualy does change things quite a bit. I'll take some Bell's Two Hearted oh yeah. I have no choice but to rejoin this thread now. I'll take some Mother Earth Dark Cloud. |
| 2013-12-10 3:50 PM in reply to: qrkid |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? What do you think I need to offer to get Mike to say "more volume" ? I am taking notes of all these beers. I plan to see if they exist in Canada. And yes, if anyone is at a race where I am there, of it you come to Montreal, beers are on me. |
| 2013-12-10 4:00 PM in reply to: marcag |
Expert 1394 Wilmington, NC | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Originally posted by marcag What do you think I need to offer to get Mike to say "more volume" ? I am taking notes of all these beers. I plan to see if they exist in Canada. And yes, if anyone is at a race where I am there, of it you come to Montreal, beers are on me. Dude you need to head south for a training camp. Perfect place for you will be Asheville, NC. I live on opposite side of the state(at the beach) but Asheville has crazy good riding and running (tons of trails and roads to get huge volume). And..........it also has about 15 craft breweries to help with recovery. |
| 2013-12-10 4:01 PM in reply to: qrkid |
Regular 5477 LHOTP | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Originally posted by qrkid Originally posted by switch oh yeah. I have no choice but to rejoin this thread now. I'll take some Mother Earth Dark Cloud. Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain I'll buy the beers for everyone if LB says "more volume" Originally posted by brigby1 I would have actually said 130-140 is more normal year round and building up to a peak of 200 leading into a race. I'm not actually trying to change anyone's mind with that, just making sure the picture is accurate. That actualy does change things quite a bit. I'll take some Bell's Two Hearted :) I've never had that, but you piqued my curiosity when you posted it last night. I looked at our really good beer shop, but they don't have it. Don't know if we can get that here, but I'll keep looking. |
| 2013-12-10 4:04 PM in reply to: marcag |
Regular 5477 LHOTP | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Originally posted by marcag What do you think I need to offer to get Mike to say "more volume" ? I am taking notes of all these beers. I plan to see if they exist in Canada. And yes, if anyone is at a race where I am there, of it you come to Montreal, beers are on me. He was saying 30mpw, so it still might be right on for him. What races do you have planned for 2014, Marc?
|
| 2013-12-10 4:13 PM in reply to: qrkid |
| Seattle | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Originally posted by qrkid Originally posted by marcag What do you think I need to offer to get Mike to say "more volume" ? I am taking notes of all these beers. I plan to see if they exist in Canada. And yes, if anyone is at a race where I am there, of it you come to Montreal, beers are on me. Dude you need to head south for a training camp. Perfect place for you will be Asheville, NC. I live on opposite side of the state(at the beach) but Asheville has crazy good riding and running (tons of trails and roads to get huge volume). And..........it also has about 15 craft breweries to help with recovery. I'm heading to Bend, OR this weekend where I will indulge in every single craft brew that I can get my hands on. AFTER the race that is. |
| 2013-12-10 4:22 PM in reply to: Asalzwed |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Enjoy the beer! As for the OP, I would say the basic principles of quality training are the same at all levels and ages. Our coach also worked with age-groupers who ran 3-4 hours for the marathon, and they did many of the same workouts. It's just that the elite will try just about anything to get an edge. Back in my day it was something that simulated sleeping at high altitude, if I recall correctly. (I didn't do it.) For the marathon, build your mileage consistently to a level you can handle. 50-70 mph is plenty, depending on your available time and what kind of runner you are. (Is your strength speed or endurance?) Long runs are important. Then gradually add some quality running up to 20% of mileage, mainly longer repeats and tempo runs. Unless you have serious, fundamental flaws in your running technique, everything else is icing on the cake. Carefully weigh the injury risk of adding new things with the potential benefit. Most of the times I've gotten injured, it's been from other stuff like yoga or plyometrics, or tripping over my own feet, not from running too much. Stay healthy! |
| 2013-12-10 4:30 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Originally posted by switch Originally posted by marcag What do you think I need to offer to get Mike to say "more volume" ? I am taking notes of all these beers. I plan to see if they exist in Canada. And yes, if anyone is at a race where I am there, of it you come to Montreal, beers are on me. He was saying 30mpw, so it still might be right on for him. What races do you have planned for 2014, Marc?
I qualified for 70.3 Worlds next Sept at Mt-Tremblant so that is the only commitment so far I qualified for worlds masters swimming in the 100m but want to qualify for 200 and 400. So I will do that. It's in Montreal in July. There is also a 3k Other than that so far no plans. Maybe Rev3 Quassy, maybe a marathon (on "low" mileage). I do plan to cycle with cyclists and am racing with masters swimming I do have a new motto "Swim with swimmers, ride with cyclists, run with my dog" Edited by marcag 2013-12-10 4:34 PM |
| 2013-12-10 4:33 PM in reply to: qrkid |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Originally posted by qrkid Originally posted by marcag What do you think I need to offer to get Mike to say "more volume" ? I am taking notes of all these beers. I plan to see if they exist in Canada. And yes, if anyone is at a race where I am there, of it you come to Montreal, beers are on me. Dude you need to head south for a training camp. Perfect place for you will be Asheville, NC. I live on opposite side of the state(at the beach) but Asheville has crazy good riding and running (tons of trails and roads to get huge volume). And..........it also has about 15 craft breweries to help with recovery. Well....I was thinking of taking a week and go ride somewhere. Maybe Asheville. If so, I will inquire on spots and buy the rounds for contributors to this thread in the vicinity. |
| 2013-12-10 4:39 PM in reply to: marcag |
Regular 5477 LHOTP | Subject: RE: How can I get faster? Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by switch I qualified for 70.3 Worlds next Sept at Mt-Tremblant so that is the only commitment so far I qualified for worlds masters swimming in the 100m but want to qualify for 200 and 400. So I will do that. It's in Montreal in July. There is also a 3k Other than that so far no plans. Maybe Rev3 Quassy, maybe a marathon (on "low" mileage). I do plan to cycle with cyclists and am racing with masters swimming I do have a new motto "Swim with swimmers, ride with cyclists, run with my dog" Originally posted by marcag What do you think I need to offer to get Mike to say "more volume" ? I am taking notes of all these beers. I plan to see if they exist in Canada. And yes, if anyone is at a race where I am there, of it you come to Montreal, beers are on me. He was saying 30mpw, so it still might be right on for him. What races do you have planned for 2014, Marc?
Well, that's a very nice schedule, sir. A nice motto too. Sadly, I will never meet up with you at a worlds swimming event, so I'll see what I can do about the others : ) |
|
|
|
|
| |||
| |||
|  Started by SpokesViews: 1505 Posts: 19 | ||
| |||
|
| ||||
|
| |||
|
| |||
|
|
View profile
Add to friends
Go to training log
Go to race log
Send a message
View album
CONNECT WITH FACEBOOK