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2015-03-25 1:11 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

I guess it's too much to ask in a debate about flip turns that we at least all agree to use proper contractions: it's, you're, they're. 

 



2015-03-25 1:17 PM
in reply to: mrbbrad

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by mrbbrad

I guess it's too much to ask in a debate about flip turns that we at least all agree to use proper contractions: it's, you're, they're. 

 

using proper contractions doesn't make you a better writer. I can right just fine without them. Learning contractions seems like a waste of time and effort when I could just write without them.

2015-03-25 1:30 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

I can win without apostrophes.

2015-03-25 1:48 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by Left Brain

I can win without apostrophes.

maybe, but only at a local level.

2015-03-25 1:51 PM
in reply to: Left Brain


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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by Left Brain

I can win without apostrophes.




Yah...but you got no chance without ellipses.
They're my favorite. I still like to use them....even if it not in the proper way. You see....I spent several years in radio....and a few brief spells in TV. Commas?....not enough to convey a pause worthy of more than what a mere comma offers....or even better....to keep you from reading to fast. The goal.....conversational reading.

It just doesn't translate so well on the interwebz to people who ain't used ta' readin' them regular.
2015-03-25 1:53 PM
in reply to: jhaack39

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by jhaack39
Originally posted by Left Brain

I can win without apostrophes.

Yah...but you got no chance without ellipses. They're my favorite. I still like to use them....even if it not in the proper way. You see....I spent several years in radio....and a few brief spells in TV. Commas?....not enough to convey a pause worthy of more than what a mere comma offers....or even better....to keep you from reading to fast. The goal.....conversational reading. It just doesn't translate so well on the interwebz to people who ain't used ta' readin' them regular.

I like the trailing ellipses...



2015-03-25 1:54 PM
in reply to: mrbbrad


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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by mrbbrad

I like the trailing ellipses...


Oh yeah...definitely.
Always leave them wanting more.

It makes everything just so....
2015-03-25 4:45 PM
in reply to: jhaack39

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Flips turns just look cool.  Isn't that why we are all in triathlon anyway?  That and the cool/expensive toys...

 

2015-03-25 5:40 PM
in reply to: jhaack39

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by jhaack39

Originally posted by Sidney Porter

Originally posted by jhaack39



My results:
-lots of water up the nose (need to figure out the breathing)



exhale or use your top lip to cover your nose.



I started to sort it out. It's just the timing of exhaling. Rubbing tummy, patting head, while knitting a sweater. I still have to 'think through' the steps. Also, I'm so used to being in 'rest mode', if you will, when approaching the wall so everything is 'different'. It's easy to see how if I could get it down, that everything would certainly be more machinelike and faster.


Break it into two pieces - the flip straight over and the push off (which is pretty much the same as what you do on an open turn after you tuck your head into the water.) Try some free to back straight over flip 50s (go in swimming free- flip straight over and come off in a streamline on your back- then start swimming back stroke).

Once you're comfortable doing that then think about adding the twist. You can even take your "rest" after you pop up on your back- so you're only postponing it by a few seconds.
2015-03-26 7:17 AM
in reply to: Moonrocket

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
After watching this thread and thinking, "I still will never do flip-turns," I came to a realization in the pool this morning.

So the guy in the lane next to me was obviously a swimmer and was flip-turning and speeding past me consistently. As I was chugging along and open turning like a plebe I realized there is a pretty good analogy to this whole situation..

In the water, triathletes are Jeep Cherokees (what I currently own) and this guy next to me (could be triathlete but let's assume not) is a Ferrari. The flip turn is like power sliding into a parking spot or around a turn. Obviously, the Ferrari can do this without even a qualm but the Cherokee is going to have issues achieving this feat because while not specifically made for power sliding, they can do a bunch of different things that a Ferrari cannot. However, trying to go off-road or transport anything besides 2-people cannot be achieved by a Ferrari. So me (the Cherokee) will continue my trying focusing on the fact that I also have 138.2 more miles to go after I get out of the water.

At least this my perception as I start my IM training plan and the swim is 1) my least favorite leg 2) the one I am least worried about and 3) not worth it to me to spend hours upon hours trying to get my time in the water from 1:20 to 1:00.

Hope you all enjoyed my analogy and have a great flip turn or flip turnless swim session =)
2015-03-26 7:37 AM
in reply to: lanzodt

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by lanzodt  not worth it to me to spend hours upon hours trying to get my time in the water from 1:20 to 1:00.  

I find this statement a bit puzzling.

Out of curiosity I ran some scenarios through the Best Bike Split website on the Ironman Mont Tremblant course.  In order to go from a 5:40 split down to a 5:20 split, you would have to increase power from 172 watts up to 197 watts, a difference of 25 watts.  Assuming that's done at 70% FTP then you have to increase your FTP by 35 watts to achieve that same 20 minute savings.  That's potentially a HUGE undertaking and definitely falls under the category of "hours upon hours".

I get that you just don't like to swim and I'm totally fine with that as it's you that has to enjoy what you do, I just find that dismissing a 20 minute gain in the water because it would take a lot of time and effort is odd.



2015-03-26 7:42 AM
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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by popsracer

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by popsracer

Originally posted by ironswimming Personally, I definitely notice that I can more easily get in the zone during swims when I do flip turns. I find that laps flow together more with flip turns. The starting and stopping of open turns break up the swimming. I'm also more tempted to stop with open turns or hand on the wall for an extra breath.

I appreciate your thoughts but if I can get in the zone and not take an extra breath or pause at the wall why do so many people imply that if I don't do flip turns I'm violating a foundation training principle (like only swimming steady state)?

Well, every turn you are practicing your streamline, so you're missing out on that. Water feel, continuity in your workout, and your breakouts are all swim skills that DO matter in open water.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand the points being made in defense of the flip turn.  How is it different when I push off from the wall with an open turn or a flip turn in terms of practicing my streamlining?  I do focus on water feel and streamlining as I push off from my open turn.

Every time you touch the wall and do an open turn you are resting. I'm waiting for it but, Yes, you are.  Non-swimmers don't understand how that extra second or so can even remotely be called rest.....swimmers easily get it.

No, I'm not.  ;-)  A good fast open turn (think competitive fly or breast), where you stay low in the water, drop your shoulder as you roll away from the wall, and push off hard in a tight streamline, doesn't provide any rest.  It just causes you to fall behind your lane mates, and gives you less rest before the next sendoff.  ;-)

Of course, I know you're not talking about real open turns.  I'm just making the point that open turns don't automatically mean more rest or not working hard.  :-D

 eta:  Even though I'm a proponent of pretty much everyone learning and using flip turns, I also want my athletes to know that turns aren't for resting, and I want them to execute their best turn (open or flip), and push off with some enthusiasm in a tight streamline.

 



Edited by TriMyBest 2015-03-26 7:44 AM
2015-03-26 7:43 AM
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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by lanzodt  Hope you all enjoyed my analogy and have a great flip turn or flip turnless swim session =)

Sorry, don't think it's a very good analogy.

ETA: You could probably just skip swimming altogether with that logic.



Edited by brigby1 2015-03-26 7:47 AM
2015-03-26 7:47 AM
in reply to: lanzodt

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by lanzodt After watching this thread and thinking, "I still will never do flip-turns," I came to a realization in the pool this morning. So the guy in the lane next to me was obviously a swimmer and was flip-turning and speeding past me consistently. As I was chugging along and open turning like a plebe I realized there is a pretty good analogy to this whole situation.. In the water, triathletes are Jeep Cherokees (what I currently own) and this guy next to me (could be triathlete but let's assume not) is a Ferrari. The flip turn is like power sliding into a parking spot or around a turn. Obviously, the Ferrari can do this without even a qualm but the Cherokee is going to have issues achieving this feat because while not specifically made for power sliding, they can do a bunch of different things that a Ferrari cannot. However, trying to go off-road or transport anything besides 2-people cannot be achieved by a Ferrari. So me (the Cherokee) will continue my trying focusing on the fact that I also have 138.2 more miles to go after I get out of the water. At least this my perception as I start my IM training plan and the swim is 1) my least favorite leg 2) the one I am least worried about and 3) not worth it to me to spend hours upon hours trying to get my time in the water from 1:20 to 1:00. Hope you all enjoyed my analogy and have a great flip turn or flip turnless swim session =)

I don't/can't do flip turns.  I've tried at various times over the years, but get very disoriented when I flip, come out facing backwards, upside down, etc.  Basically it's a mess and I'm not going to spend the time trying to learn them for now.  That said, there is value to spending more time in the pool.  I have not really gotten faster over the past few years, however when I've upped my time/consistency in the pool I've built up my endurance and stamina, which has in turn led to better race results because I have the ability to race stronger on the bike and run.  Folks sometimes forget how much the swim can take out of them if they are undertrained in the water - so your 1:20 for IM could in fact be a bit faster, but you will come out a lot fresher for the next 10-15 hours.  Swim/run bricks can sometimes be a good guage of how much the swim is actually impacting the rest of your race.

2015-03-26 7:49 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by lanzodt  not worth it to me to spend hours upon hours trying to get my time in the water from 1:20 to 1:00.  

I find this statement a bit puzzling.

Out of curiosity I ran some scenarios through the Best Bike Split website on the Ironman Mont Tremblant course.  In order to go from a 5:40 split down to a 5:20 split, you would have to increase power from 172 watts up to 197 watts, a difference of 25 watts.  Assuming that's done at 70% FTP then you have to increase your FTP by 35 watts to achieve that same 20 minute savings.  That's potentially a HUGE undertaking and definitely falls under the category of "hours upon hours".

I get that you just don't like to swim and I'm totally fine with that as it's you that has to enjoy what you do, I just find that dismissing a 20 minute gain in the water because it would take a lot of time and effort is odd.

You forgot - it's all about the bike split.  That worth the hours...

2015-03-26 7:51 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Yes, I agree with you but at this point in my triathlon career I think putting time and effort into the bike and run would be more beneficial to me. I am effectively a beginner and to me, I see biking a running as having more gain potential than the swim.

In addition, I hope that I do get my 1:55/100yd swim down to 1:40ish. I am following Don Fink's IM plan so I think it's possible and do hope it happens but what I meant by that statement was that the swim is a necessary evil and I will train for the swim but it's not as important to me in the grand scheme of an IM.


2015-03-26 7:54 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by lanzodt  Hope you all enjoyed my analogy and have a great flip turn or flip turnless swim session =)

Sorry, don't think it's a very good analogy.

ETA: You could probably just skip swimming altogether with that logic.




Yes, but overall I enjoy the entire race day triathlon experience and as I am signed up for IMLOU not a feasible option. Swimming is my least favorite of the 3 and definitely my least favorite training activity.
2015-03-26 7:56 AM
in reply to: lanzodt

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by lanzodt Yes, I agree with you but at this point in my triathlon career I think putting time and effort into the bike and run would be more beneficial to me. I am effectively a beginner and to me, I see biking a running as having more gain potential than the swim. In addition, I hope that I do get my 1:55/100yd swim down to 1:40ish. I am following Don Fink's IM plan so I think it's possible and do hope it happens but what I meant by that statement was that the swim is a necessary evil and I will train for the swim but it's not as important to me in the grand scheme of an IM.

That's fair, personally I consider running a necessary evil of triathlon.  

2015-03-26 7:57 AM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by GoFaster

Originally posted by lanzodt After watching this thread and thinking, "I still will never do flip-turns," I came to a realization in the pool this morning. So the guy in the lane next to me was obviously a swimmer and was flip-turning and speeding past me consistently. As I was chugging along and open turning like a plebe I realized there is a pretty good analogy to this whole situation.. In the water, triathletes are Jeep Cherokees (what I currently own) and this guy next to me (could be triathlete but let's assume not) is a Ferrari. The flip turn is like power sliding into a parking spot or around a turn. Obviously, the Ferrari can do this without even a qualm but the Cherokee is going to have issues achieving this feat because while not specifically made for power sliding, they can do a bunch of different things that a Ferrari cannot. However, trying to go off-road or transport anything besides 2-people cannot be achieved by a Ferrari. So me (the Cherokee) will continue my trying focusing on the fact that I also have 138.2 more miles to go after I get out of the water. At least this my perception as I start my IM training plan and the swim is 1) my least favorite leg 2) the one I am least worried about and 3) not worth it to me to spend hours upon hours trying to get my time in the water from 1:20 to 1:00. Hope you all enjoyed my analogy and have a great flip turn or flip turnless swim session =)

I don't/can't do flip turns.  I've tried at various times over the years, but get very disoriented when I flip, come out facing backwards, upside down, etc.  Basically it's a mess and I'm not going to spend the time trying to learn them for now.  That said, there is value to spending more time in the pool.  I have not really gotten faster over the past few years, however when I've upped my time/consistency in the pool I've built up my endurance and stamina, which has in turn led to better race results because I have the ability to race stronger on the bike and run.  Folks sometimes forget how much the swim can take out of them if they are undertrained in the water - so your 1:20 for IM could in fact be a bit faster, but you will come out a lot fresher for the next 10-15 hours.  Swim/run bricks can sometimes be a good guage of how much the swim is actually impacting the rest of your race.




Thanks for this and I have Swim/Run bricks planned in my training. I still plan to train for the swim just begrudgingly =) That's all.
2015-03-26 8:03 AM
in reply to: ironswimming

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
I do flip turns, but that doesn't mean I'm not resting. Just like any other part of working out (running, biking or swimming), I can do them easy or hard. I may not be catching my breath, but that doesn't mean I can't rest. When I do long timed sets, I flip, hit the lap button on my watch every 100 and see what my time was or check my lap count, all underwater on my side. If I'm sprinting or going hard, my flip will be fast. If I'm warming up, my flip will be slow and lazy.

With that out of the way, I do have a real question about flip turns a times. If I do two lengths of the pool, I will push off the wall with my feet, probably with one had on the wall. When I get to the other end of the pool, I can do an open turn or a flip turn.

If I do an open turn, one had will touch the wall, I will use my arm to help swing my body around to get my feet to the wall and push off. So at least one of my hands have travelled the whole 25y/m/whatever. I then complete the second length and touch the wall with my hand.

If a do a flip turn, I will still start off with one hand on the wall and push off with both feet. When I get the other end, my hand stop well short of the wall, I pivot somewhere around the middle of my torso and only my feet hit the wall. My head and hands have not travelled as far down the pool as they would have using an open turn.

SO, I theorize that people who do open turns actually cover more distance than people who do flip turns. Thoughts?
2015-03-26 8:07 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by Left Brain

There is nobody winning or placing in HIM (in the competitive groups) who can't do flip turns in a swim workout.


Correlation does not equal causation. Flip turns didn't make them win an open water swim.


2015-03-26 8:13 AM
in reply to: schaumi

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by schaumi
Originally posted by Left Brain There is nobody winning or placing in HIM (in the competitive groups) who can't do flip turns in a swim workout.
Correlation does not equal causation. Flip turns didn't make them win an open water swim.

Flip turns didn't "make them win," but training properly did. Flip turns are part of training properly. 

Running drills didn't "make me win" a 5k, but doing them was sure part of it.

2015-03-26 8:14 AM
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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by lanzodt . . . In the water, triathletes are Jeep Cherokees (what I currently own) and this guy next to me (could be triathlete but let's assume not) is a Ferrari. The flip turn is like power sliding into a parking spot or around a turn. Obviously, the Ferrari can do this without even a qualm but the Cherokee is going to have issues achieving this feat because while not specifically made for power sliding, they can do a bunch of different things that a Ferrari cannot. However, trying to go off-road or transport anything besides 2-people cannot be achieved by a Ferrari. So me (the Cherokee) will continue my trying focusing on the fact that I also have 138.2 more miles to go after I get out of the water.

At least this my perception as I start my IM training plan and the swim is 1) my least favorite leg 2) the one I am least worried about and 3) not worth it to me to spend hours upon hours trying to get my time in the water from 1:20 to 1:00 . . .

This is where a really high percentage of AG triathletes miss the boat! (Dan, I am not picking on you and this is not directed at you personally.  It is intended in a broad, general sense).

I hear it all the time, "The swim is only 10% of my race so I am not going to spend more than 10% of my time training for that little bit of my race day," or something very similar - basically discounting the importance of the swim.  What those triathletes are missing however is that the swim isn't necessarily about the time.  It is about setting yourself up for the rest of the day.  Whether a triathlete is trying to go from 2:00 -> 1:45 per 100 or 1:30 -> 1:15 per 100 is really not that important.  What matters is being able to swim aerobically and efficiently.  You simply are not going to be able to do that swimming a couple of 30-minute workouts per week (or some other ridiculously low volume mandated by 10% of your training time).  Sorry, isn't going to happen.

Along the same lines, the successful, competitive triathletes ALL are doing flip-turns in the pool.  EVERY one of them.  Sorry, you may not like to hear that, but there it is.  Competitive triathletes can SWIM.  They don't beat the water into submission, they are smooth, efficient, and graceful in the water, not to mention fast by triathlon standards (a few are even fast by swimming standards).  Flip-turns just happen to be a part of smooth, efficient and graceful swimming.  Sorry, that is just the way it is.  Look at those that don't do flip-turns.  What trait do almost all of them share?  It isn't smooth, efficient, and graceful swimming, rather they tend to have sub-standard technique and struggle with the swim.

It comes down to this:  Do you want to complete a triathlon or do you want to compete in a triathlon.  The Jeep Cherokee analogy is a wonderful analogy in that the Jeep can definitely complete a triathlon, but it will never compete in a triathlon.

So, continue to train with insufficient volume and continue to discount the value of flip-turns.  You will continue to be anaerobic during your swim and come out of the water baked and often forfeit the opportunity to have a good race day - but, yeah, you may complete your triathlon.  OR, increase the importance of swim training, do what swimmers do to improve (uh oh, the means learning to flip-turn), stay aerobic in the water on race day and compete in your triathlon.

The choice is yours.



Edited by k9car363 2015-03-26 8:18 AM
2015-03-26 8:15 AM
in reply to: #5102993


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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Anxiously waiting the arrival in this thread of the Endless Pool contingent to laugh at all the rest flip turners are doing during their swims. Ain't no laps in an Endless Pool.
2015-03-26 8:17 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by lanzodt

. . . At least this my perception as I start my IM training plan and the swim is 1) my least favorite leg 2) the one I am least worried about and 3) not worth it to me to spend hours upon hours trying to get my time in the water from 1:20 to 1:00 . . .

This is where a really high percentage of AG triathletes miss the boat! (Dan, I am not picking on you and this is not directed at you personally.  It is intended in a broad, general sense).

I hear it all the time, "The swim is only 10% of my race so I am not going to spend more than 10% of my time training for that little bit of my race day," or something very similar - basically discounting the importance of the swim.  What those triathletes are missing however is that the swim isn't necessarily about the time.  It is about setting yourself up for the rest of the day.  Whether a triathlete is trying to go from 2:00 -> 1:45 per 100 or 1:30 -> 1:15 per 100 is really not that important.  What matters is being able to swim aerobically and efficiently.  You simply are not going to be able to do that swimming a couple of 30-minute workouts per week (or some other ridiculously low volume mandated by 10% of your training time).  Sorry, isn't going to happen.

Along the same lines, the successful, competitive triathletes ALL are doing flip-turns in the pool.  EVERY one of them.  Sorry, you may not like to hear that, but there it is.  Competitive triathletes can SWIM.  They don't beat the water into submission, they are smooth, efficient, and graceful in the water, not to mention fast by triathlon standards (a few are even fast by swimming standards).  Flip-turns just happen to be a part of smooth, efficient and graceful swimming.  Sorry, that is just the way it is.  Look at those that don't do flip-turns.  What trait do almost all of them share?  It isn't smooth, efficient, and graceful swimming, rather they tend to have sub-standard technique and struggle with the swim.

It comes down to this:  Do you want to complete a triathlon or do you want to compete in a triathlon.  The Jeep Cherokee analogy is a wonderful analogy in that the Jeep can definitely complete a triathlon, but it will never compete in a triathlon.

So, continue to train with insufficient volume and continue to discount the value of flip-turns.  You will continue to be anaerobic during your swim and come out of the water baked and often forfeit the opportunity to have a good race day - but, yeah, you may complete your triathlon.  OR, increase the importance of swim training, do what swimmers do to improve (uh oh, the means learning to flip-turn), stay aerobic in the water on race day and compete in your triathlon.

The choice is yours.

Amen.

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