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2016-09-13 12:30 PM

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Subject: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?

Even though I have raced a lot, I never really "push" myself to a point of difficulty for very long.   Once it starts to get hard, I dial it back.  This really came to bite me this year during my first marathon.  If you "take it easy" during a marathon, the time really really adds up.  Knowing that I wasn't even really sore the next day caused me to wonder if I could have tried a bit harder and the problem was, at least 50%, psychological.  Of course I knew it was going to be hard, but I just really gave up during the race.  This is how it always goes.

Since I don't have the time/money to invest in a real sports psychologist, I wanted to ask you all how you get yourself to that point.  What do you do (either before a race or during a race) that helps to remind you that you actually want to push yourself in that way?  What tricks/techniques/devices can you recommend to pull out your best performance beyond the physical training?   



2016-09-13 12:49 PM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl


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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?
Subscribed for comments. I hope there is some good info out there I can share with my 17year old son for XC races. He trains super hard and is extremely dedicated to training, but once on the course, he can't mentally get his best out or even close. Same for track season.

Do you have someone to run with you to push you past your comfort zone? I use small targets/goals to push my numbers up, but it always helped me to have someone younger and faster to pace you, motivate you and kick your butt when needed.




2016-09-13 1:29 PM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl

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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?

Fear

I don't know if it's from growing up with sports and always having a coach watching over me but fear is the answer.  Fear that I let myself down.  Fear that I wasted my time training.  Fear that I'll be embarrassed by my finish time.  Fear I won't finish.  Fear someone will beat me.  That one happens a little more than I'd like in triathlon. 

Growing up it was fear I wouldn't win plain and simple.  I used to stand behind the blocks telling myself, I can't beat this guy, he's faster, no one thinks I can win.    

2016-09-13 1:33 PM
in reply to: Goggles Pizzano

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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?
I go with anger. When I find myself starting to slack, I think of things that really me off and I use that as fuel to push myself harder. It's not easy when people around me are smiling and saying "good job," but I do my best to stay dialed in.
2016-09-13 1:55 PM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl

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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?
I don't know how anyone would really know how hard they CAN push themselves......unless they've blown up, before.

That being said, I have metrics I can track on the bike (HR and power). On the run, I have a tendency to go hard, right off the bike. I have always had to dial myself down a notch or three, after the first 1/2 mile or so.....thinking I probably can't sustain that pace for (_____mi). My plan is to back off less and less ......until I blow up....lol.
2016-09-13 2:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?

It's not fun to suffer so I will also dial it back if I veer into suffer territory.  I'm not competing for podiums but will beat 80-90% of the field and my AG at any given race.

I have told people my Suffer Switch is permanently broken.  I just don't care that much.

Like someone mentioned... in order to really push oneself you need to know where your blow up point is and I'm not willing to find out.

I'm pretty confident I could qualify for the 70.3 WC given the right training and right race but I'm nowhere near the point I want to dedicate myself fully to the process.  Maybe I will someday, maybe I won't.



Edited by GMAN 19030 2016-09-13 2:18 PM


2016-09-13 2:28 PM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl

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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?
I can only speak for myself. Some background...Raced for seven years in all levels of Triathlon from Sprint to IM. I' m 52 years old and usually hit the podium in Sprint and Olympic distance races.

I push myself in training. My training can be exhausting at times. I understand what my body is capable of in the race from all the training.

Are you backing off of fear or cramping and not finishing or because it hurts in the Marathon? To me they are two different cases. I assume you are monitoring heart rate and staying in zones for the race.

My training is a good benchmark for how hard I can push myself in a race. I usually think of my training when I start to get thoughts of backing off in a race. I know there will be plenty of time to rest and relax at the finish. I know the difference of being uncomfortable due to racing hard and something not right in my body. I will back off for the latter.

Not a sports psychologist, just crazy guy that gets up and runs at 4:00 AM.

Good luck
2016-09-13 2:36 PM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl

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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?

I had a friend on my cross country team who was convinced that he ran so much faster when he was mad, so before a meet he would go around to each of us and ask us to insult his mother.

2016-09-13 2:38 PM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl


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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?
Two things I do:
1) When I'm getting ready that morning I dedicate the race to someone I care about. Family, friends, living or passed on. Once I do this, I know I will want to give the race my best effort for this person(s).
2) When I'm really hurting and want to back off (usually in the run) I remind myself about that dedication, and I ask myself if perhaps I can go a little harder. Then I say a few positive affirmations to myself and try to build into as quick a pace as I can possibly hold. I also remind myself of all the sacrifices and efforts I've made in training and I might as well see what I can really do!
2016-09-13 3:25 PM
in reply to: MikeD1

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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?

Good thoughts so far, thanks!   I am not sure I can summon up the fear (other than of missing out on something, I guess), but I might be able to do anger.  I'll think about the last time I had to call the cable company, for instance.   

From what I am hearing, it may be that I need to work on finding different/more motivation. Currently my motivation only gets me through training and TO the race.  Just not to really compete, even with only myself.

2016-09-13 3:35 PM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl

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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?

Originally posted by BikerGrrrl

Good thoughts so far, thanks!   I am not sure I can summon up the fear (other than of missing out on something, I guess), but I might be able to do anger.  I'll think about the last time I had to call the cable company, for instance.   

From what I am hearing, it may be that I need to work on finding different/more motivation. Currently my motivation only gets me through training and TO the race.  Just not to really compete, even with only myself.

For some people, that is all they need and it is enough to be satisfied.  The training is the hard part; the race is the reward for all of that hard work.  My wife has done about 10 triathlons and she's trained WAY harder than she's raced, because that's the important part to her.

For me, the thing that pushes me is just a competitive streak, more so against myself than anyone else (though having someone 10 yards ahead with 200 to go in a 5K helps with the kick).  Some people just don't have that competitive gene.

As I get older, I'm finding it harder and harder to suffer while training on the bike.

 



2016-09-13 4:40 PM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl

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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?
There have definitely been races that I have had to dig deep and go to dark place to hold the pace. Some days I can get there others I cannot. I try to identify people in my AG and stick with them or try to pick them off and pass. Helps me to track progress and stay motivated. Having family and friends at race helps too. Not wanted to disappoint them becomes great motivator.

Very great read on this subject by Matt Fitzgerald, "How Bad Do You Want It". Takes a look at this exact subject by using examples from elite athletes and how the handled these situations. Very cool to see how they have some of the same thoughts as the rest of us.

This is the new frontier of sports performance. We have spent the past few decades pushing to get the most out of our bodies and are very close to the limits of what they can do. However, we are just beginning to scratch the surface on the mental side.
2016-09-13 5:44 PM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl

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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?
For me now, the thought of all the training I have done and how hard I worked to get to this point, how long it would take to go through another training cycle to get back to the next race ready to go. Plus (if I have a time goal) I'm not getting any younger, nor is my life getting any simpler or less demanding--it may well be now or never. As for anger, I don't know about others--it's much deeper than the cable company. It's anger at myself for not going after some things I should have, or at people who tried to tell me what I couldn't do, or at bad luck in general. It's like the one thing I can control in my life is effort; everything else, so often, has gone wrong......So I try (tri?). You'd probably have to know me better to understand that. I'm a really low-key person outside of sports, and not very emotional--I think I channel my intensity into racing. I'm always the one crying at the finish line, good race or bad!

In reality, "pushing yourself" can be a tough call. Depends on the race and what your body is giving that day. Some of my best races have felt "easy"-things just kind of flowed and the effort came almost instinctively without a lot of mental struggle. Some mediocre races, I was working very hard but my body just wasn't giving much that day-illness, hormones, maybe troubles with nutrition or hydration or something.

One reason I kind of like sprints and the 5K run is because there's no guesswork--I'm just below the "puke" level the whole time. With long stuff like HIM or IM, you're pushing yourself, but it has to be sustainable enough to let you finish. I struggle with this on the bike in particular. I've had races where I felt like I was holding something back (Vietnam--because of the heat and how I'd imploded on the run the year before) and those where I pushed so hard there were multiple points where I really wasn't sure I could finish (Calgary--I was pushing bike watts I should "theoretically" be able to do based on a 20-minute FTP test, but had never come anywhere close in an actual race. I wasn't trying to qualify for Worlds there, so I just decided, if I blow up, I blow up. I have to see what I can do.) I did, slightly, blow up (it seemed epic at the time--actually I just had cramps for the final 4 or 5 km that slowed my run by maybe 2-3 minutes). I'm pretty satisfied there wasn't more to give that day.

It takes time and I think the motivation for everyone is a bit different. Pushing yourself in training is great practice. I've done workouts that, honestly, felt as bad as or sometimes (because they were more intense than HIM level) worse than the race itself. In some cases compounded by doing them in tropical heat. We have at times had the same coach so you might know something about that!

2016-09-13 6:30 PM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl


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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?

Honestly, it's mostly training. I seriously doubt that it was a 50% psychological problem. 

The 'tough guy/gal' approach by saying it's all mental on race day generally fails. Even a pro/elite is only so 'tough', and it's actually not much tougher than the typical AGer on race day. Make them run at their true VO2max rate for a 5k, and even they'll give up if you push them further, pretty much the same as an AGer does.

Being able to 'push' at the end of a race is a lot more about training. You've got to have the training to hold those high race-part HRs when it counts at the end, and enough tempo work to maintain the power phases of the run/stroke/whatever when the going gets tough. 

Training predominantly slow is great for base, but if you avoid doing the VO2max and hard tempo work, you will feel it on race day when you try to push into the red zone, and you find that you just can't do it, even though you're not hurting so bad and your brain really wants you to.   

You have to put in regular 'red-zone' training, meaning VO2max and LT work, which are typically faster than race pace efforts. They'll only be a small minority of your training per week, but doing so will give you a boost in overall speed plus give you that hi-end reserve efforts that you want at the tail end of a race. 

Now if you're really doing gut-busting weekly VO2max and tempo sessions regularly in the buildup to your marathon/race, ok, let's talk psychology. But until that happens, it's largely training that allows you to go hard on race day. 

 

 

2016-09-13 6:36 PM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl

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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?

For me it's pretty simple.  My training tells me what I'm capable of doing.  A good taper might allow me to be a little bit more aggressive but you have to constantly monitor how you are feeling during the race.  I'm usually toast at the end of every race whether it be a 5k, sprint, HM or HIM because I try eke out a little bit more than what my training indicates I'm capable of doing.

2016-09-13 9:47 PM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl

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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?

Originally posted by BikerGrrrl

Even though I have raced a lot, I never really "push" myself to a point of difficulty for very long.   Once it starts to get hard, I dial it back.  This really came to bite me this year during my first marathon.  If you "take it easy" during a marathon, the time really really adds up.  Knowing that I wasn't even really sore the next day caused me to wonder if I could have tried a bit harder and the problem was, at least 50%, psychological.  Of course I knew it was going to be hard, but I just really gave up during the race.  This is how it always goes.

Since I don't have the time/money to invest in a real sports psychologist, I wanted to ask you all how you get yourself to that point.  What do you do (either before a race or during a race) that helps to remind you that you actually want to push yourself in that way?  What tricks/techniques/devices can you recommend to pull out your best performance beyond the physical training?   

1) My mental preparation starts with training.  I commit to a training plan and do everything I can to get through it day in and day out.  Some work outs really push me and I can either dial it back and take it easy or I can stick to the plan.  I figure I can either hurt now or hurt later.  That is I can push through the training and be prepares to where on race day I am ready or I can take short cuts to the work out and by not being prepares on race day have it hurt me.  By getting through difficult workouts I develop a method to get through difficulties on race day.

2) I go into a race with a plan sometimes when things get rough I start counting steps.  Sometimes when I don't think I can go another step and want to stop I tell my self go 100 steps and by about 70 steps I am feeling better and can keep going,  Some times I choose a person that means a lot to me and say okay run this mile for them.  Doing it for yourself it is easy to dial it back because you aren't letting anyone down.  When you are running the mile for someone else you don't want to do a half hearted effort and you push a little further.

3) Distractions - I try to make goals like click my heels together at mile 18, or give 5 kids high fives as I rub by.  Those put your mind on other things and help you through.  I also have things in my fuel belt to distract me.  It could be a sour Gel or something different to take you mind off the pain and focus on the food for a few minutes.



2016-09-13 11:34 PM
in reply to: BlueBoy26

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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?
From what I am reading here and what I have read in other forums on BT I wonder if we're talking about two different things. Is it possible that ...
1. For some people suffering is a natural part of racing and the question is more about how much they're willing to suffer and push themselves on any given day.
2. While for other people the idea of entering the suffer zone at all is scary and there's a strong tendency to back off and not really venture in at all. I get the impression that this group has trouble with the loss of control and risk of blowing up that are inherent in venturing into unfamiliar territory.

I would place myself in the first group. I don't claim to be particularly tough or good at suffering but on race day I am there to race.
My wife is in the second group and she's okay with that. If there is any validity to my theory it would be tough to be in this group if you believe that you are "supposed" to be suffering more.

And a few more random thoughts...

When I do a threshold run at race pace during training it scares the hell out of me because it's impossible to imagine maintaining the pace for the full race distance. Yet somehow I can usually get in the right ballpark on race day. Race day excitement and competitive instinct have something to do with it.

Finding out that I'm 4th and, yes the guy that passed me near the end of the race is in my age group, helps with motivation near the end of the next race. But it doesn't make a ton of difference - like I said I'm not really that tough.

My paces for different race distances and training intervals tend to line up fairly nicely with McMillan and other pace calculators. I like these calculators because they give me some reassurance that I'm running as fast as my training and conditioning will allow.

Don
2016-09-14 4:36 AM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl

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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?

I always set myself a goal based on data from training.  How I do this will depend on the race I am competing in (with a shorter race you can be more 'aspirational' without fear of going so hard you can't complete it).  For example, recently I have been trying to improve my 5k time.  After running one in training I had a time to base training around (ie. min/mile pace to do certain workouts).  I then set a time I wanted to achieve in my next race, worked out my minute per mile pace then ran the race at that pace (as a minimum).  Usefully (in terms of setting PBs) my GPS watch underestimates the pace I am running at, so if I set myself a target of 6:30 per mile and run at this based on my watch, I am actually running faster...

 

I think it is easier to set time based goals when running and swimming as you are less affected by the elements and road condition.  On the bike a poor road surface can knock off several mph or a tailwind could add 5+mph.  It could be demoralising to set a speed or time based goal on the bike and not achieve due to factors out of your control.  For this reason I usually go on perceived effort.

2016-09-14 5:06 AM
in reply to: tridantri

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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?
The power meter for me is a powerful tool--no pun intended--for pushing myself in training and racing. It takes away some of those variables like wind/hills/road surface. Power is power, although the same power may get the same rider further or not as far depending on conditions and even bike position. I know at Calgary 70.3, my hardest effort on the bike so far, I was really motivated by the idea that I "should" be able to hold 150-160 watts (I know that doesn't sound awesome, but I am only about 115 pounds!) according to my FTP tests, even though my previous best for that distance had been about 140. The combination of thinking I "should" be able to do that, and someone other than me knowing that and maybe expecting me to do it (my coach) was pretty powerful motivation. Unless I had a clear reason like a mechanical issue or illness, I didn't want to have to explain to myself or others why I didn't/couldn't, unless I well and truly just couldn't get that out of my body. It was particularly useful as the way the course went, the first half was much slower due to a large net uphill and strong headwinds--the PM kept me from truly overcooking it while going after some arbitrary speed goal, or relaxing too much on the downhill "false flats" and with the tailwind.

Of course, it sucks if you are using your PM for motivation and pacing, and then your Garmin decides to die in a world championship.....but that is another story!
2016-09-14 10:39 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?
Depends on the races and my goals. I have found that when I overthink it, I do worse. I had one race this year that I truly didn't give a crap about. I had already met my goal of the season of qualifying for nationals, so this race was really no big deal to me. So much so I almost didn't show up to it. I decided to race anyway, just to have fun, and ended up with a two minute PR for sprint distances. However, I am really motivated at races by other people I know. I have friendly rivalries with a few women in my tri club and if I see them coming, I will step it up a notch, or try to anyway
2016-09-14 12:17 PM
in reply to: #5198675

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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?
For every "race " I've done, i have always given my all for that race on that day. Why? In honesty, at the starting line, i feel "scared" not to give it my all. Not sure why i view it that way, but i do. I agree with the above regarding blowing up.


2016-09-14 3:53 PM
in reply to: goforit

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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?

Again, reading through and thinking a lot - thank you guys.  I am getting closer to figuring myself out, even if it's not a one-size-fits-all approach.

There was a time when I was really motivated by my coach (I am reminded of this period by Hot Runner).  I really looked forward to recording my workout and race details in Training Peaks, knowing I'd get a response.  I still remember the e-mail response after logging a long zone (very successful) training run in 2011 of "WOW WOW WOW".  That was huge and meant a lot!  I definitely performed better in the years that I used a coach.  Hugely, of course, due to being better training.  But completing the training and the races well was almost just to impress her.  Weird but true.  So, if anyone other than me is readying this for ideas - being accountable to someone who is really paying attention helps.

So, perhaps one technique would be to develop the desire to make myself proud?!  Or, find a surrogate for the attention I felt from the coach.

2016-09-14 5:51 PM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl

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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?
Hmmm...I don't know. I understand you about wanting the attention. I thought that didn't matter much to me--I've always been very self-motivated and some of my best running came when I was basically coaching myself or even training for something that my coach didn't support (qualifying for Olympic Trials). So there really wasn't anybody saying, "Good job, Karen!" most of the time. And I think last year was a busy year for my coach, and I didn't always get those "Wow! responses when I felt like I'd earned them. It kind of alarmed me how much I DID want them. Like I was 10 again. Some of them were probably just due to the fact that the workout ended up being much harder than intended due to the heat. There are certain things, like tempo or progression runs, that are REALLY tough to do here. Plus I'm not as experienced a cyclist as my times or race places might indicate--some of those workouts took me far, far beyond what I'd done before, felt worse than the races, and I was too proud to say, "Maybe this is too hard right now," or "Hey, I threw up trying to hit those power targets."

I guess maybe focus more on impressing yourself. Or is there anyone who's ever told you you won't be able to do something? That has happened to me several times in my life, being told I shouldn't bother because I didn't have what it takes. I'm the first to admit I don't have loads of talent, speed, brilliance, or the perfect body for much of anything. But I do have persistence, probably a decent power to weight ration (a former club coach used to joke, "No weight, no power") and lots of endurance, and I can learn to maximize my strengths. I made the mistake of listening to negative things too much when I was younger. While you don't want to ruin the rest of your life going after impossible athletic goals, proving to yourself that you can do more than you are capable of, and proving those naysayers wrong, is another motivation and a big one in my case. Noticed your quote so thought I would mention that.
2016-09-14 7:11 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?
Originally posted by nc452010

I don't know how anyone would really know how hard they CAN push themselves......unless they've blown up, before.

That being said, I have metrics I can track on the bike (HR and power). On the run, I have a tendency to go hard, right off the bike. I have always had to dial myself down a notch or three, after the first 1/2 mile or so.....thinking I probably can't sustain that pace for (_____mi). My plan is to back off less and less ......until I blow up....lol.


you have to push yourself in training to know what you can handle on race day.

i do some REALLY hard workouts in training. some are so hard that I feel like puking afterwards. it is not pleasant, it is very uncomfortable, but you have to teach yourself to suffer.

i hate to cross the line, of any race, knowing that I could have pushed it harder. yes, i've blown up (as recently as this past Saturday), but most of the time, it is the opposite.

train like you fight/race.



2016-09-14 11:08 PM
in reply to: d00d

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Subject: RE: Pushing yourself during a race - how do you do it?
Originally posted by d00d

Originally posted by nc452010

I don't know how anyone would really know how hard they CAN push themselves......unless they've blown up, before.

That being said, I have metrics I can track on the bike (HR and power). On the run, I have a tendency to go hard, right off the bike. I have always had to dial myself down a notch or three, after the first 1/2 mile or so.....thinking I probably can't sustain that pace for (_____mi). My plan is to back off less and less ......until I blow up....lol.


you have to push yourself in training to know what you can handle on race day.

i do some REALLY hard workouts in training. some are so hard that I feel like puking afterwards. it is not pleasant, it is very uncomfortable, but you have to teach yourself to suffer.

i hate to cross the line, of any race, knowing that I could have pushed it harder. yes, i've blown up (as recently as this past Saturday), but most of the time, it is the opposite.

train like you fight/race.


I don't know - this almost sounds like your goal is to maximize suffering. I'm not sure that's what leads to the fastest times. I get this if you're really racing against people. If you're trying to beat a rival of equal ability, then desire, toughness, determination etc can determine who wins. But most of us are racing the clock. I think that staying focused and having the ability to suffer is important, but I don't see the need to step it up from suffering to SUFFERING.

I'm an old fart with a 5km race PB of around 21:35. I need to push myself to achieve this but I sure don't claim to be SUFFERING in some kind of "dark place". If i did SUFFER how much time would I gain? 15 seconds? 20 seconds? I really have no idea, but given my training and ability I don't think I'm going to lower my time to 21:00 by suffering more. I think that most of us can probably make bigger gains by learning better pacing and race day execution.
Don
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author : scoli121
comments : 6
I quickly browsed an article in Men's Health that talked about doing a triathlon, and how it wasn't really that hard. With a "tsk!" I quickly turned the page while thinking, "Yeah, right!"