General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder? Rss Feed  
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2009-08-31 9:29 AM

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Champion
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PA
Subject: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?
I was on a ride yesterday and I saw a lot more cyclists than I normally see.  However, I observed some things that were surprising.

1.  Nobody used any hand signals while turning.  At one point, two guys rode up to a "T" intersection where a car was waiting to pull out.  The car waited for the cyclists and when they finally got up to the car, they made a right so he waited for nothing.  Hellooo?  Signal?  I saw several other instances where cyclists turned off onto roads and not one signal. This is a basic communication that I learned in grade school and used on my paper route as a child. 

2.  While on a two-way road with (not exaggerating here) about an 8ft shoulder, two guys were riding 2 ft to the left of the white line.  Traffic was slowing behind them because the road was busy and too difficult to pass.  From my speed, I'm guessing they were traveling at about 20 mph.  The shoulder was clean and clear.  I know because I was on it.  Why would people chose to be on the actual road when you don't have to be?



2009-08-31 9:42 AM
in reply to: #2380080

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Pro
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Burbs
Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?
I always ride in the shoulder (if, of course, there is a shoulder to ride on!).  Where I rode yesterday - on the eastern shore of Md - cyclists are required to ride in the shoulder (it's 8-10 ft wide).

I  don't use the 'official' right, left, etc. turn signals but I always point where I'm going.

it's riders like that, IMO, that give the rest of us a bad name
2009-08-31 9:42 AM
in reply to: #2380080

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Champion
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Knoxville area
Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?
1.) Playing devil's advocate here, I don't ALWAYS signal. Sometimes I feel more secure with both hands on the bars, and you have to remember some (many) people on bikes are not confident enough in their abilities to take their hand(s) off the bars even for a second. IF I'm in a situation like this one, yeah I'll probably signal, but if I deem it unsafe for me to be moving around, I don't see much problem with the driver having to wait another 5 seconds.

2.) It is their right to be on the road and not the shoulder. If it was me and the shoulder was "clean" then I would get over (you never know when somebody in the car will get pissed and do something stupid) but they were not doing anything wrong.

In a way, I think if more cyclists didn't "Give in and get over" in situations like that, the roads would end up safer in the long run for us (although I think the cost in lives/injuries leading up to that point would not be worth it.)
2009-08-31 9:43 AM
in reply to: #2380080

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Pro
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Plano, Texas
Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?
If there's a shoulder, I use it.  One of my better routes is 80% on the shoulder.  It's about 10 ft wide and relatively clear.

I signal when there are cars around me.  I try to communicate with the drivers using hand signals as much as possible.  A wave of thanks when they stop at a stop sign, or (I did this yesterday) I was at a stop light with no cars.  A car pulled up behind me so I scooted over (to the left - my mistake).  He rolled down the window and we chatted a bit.  Now I was in the far left of the lane going into a left hand turn onto a 4 lane highway (with shoulder).  I made eye contact with the driver behind me, pointed at myself and made a hand/arm signal showing I was making a wide left turn.  He nodded and waved.  Communication is good.
2009-08-31 9:44 AM
in reply to: #2380080

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Veteran
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Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?

I ride as far right as possible. I always signal if there is a car or another cyclist anywhere near where I am turning. 

2009-08-31 9:53 AM
in reply to: #2380080

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Champion
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Sarasota, FL
Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?

I always signal - I don't want drivers to have any question of my intentions.  Even at that, I assume that they don't see me, even if we make eye contact at intersections.  I always defer to cars when the right-of-way is in question.

I try to pick routes that have bike lanes or shoulders, but that's not always possible. I try to be consistent and ride with the outside of my handle bars over the edge of the pavement, giving me a little margin for error in not running my wheels off the pavement. 

Even when riding on shoulders or bike lanes I will occasionaly move onto the road to avoid sand, gravel, or other debris.  My worst crash came a couple of years ago when I went down due to some sand the had been washed into the bike lane from recent heavy rain.

Mark

 

 



2009-08-31 9:58 AM
in reply to: #2380080

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Master
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Sunny Southern Cal
Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?

I try to signal if a car is waiting for me needlessly, and I try to gesture for someone to go if they are waiting to see if I'm going to stop or not at a stop sign.  If nobody is around, I rarely, if ever, signal.

As far as riding the white line, there are a couple reasons someone might do that.  First, debris on the shoulder.  Glass, gravel, etc.  The other is sometimes the rumble strips or whatever they are called that make tons of noise for automobiles and are impossible to ride on for a road bike.  Those are there to alert drivers that they have drifted out of the lane.  Last, if there are multiple lanes and not much traffic, I might ride side-by-side with a buddy with one of us on or over the white line.  Besides those instances, if there's a shoulder, I'm on it.  No sense riding in the lane if you don't have to.

2009-08-31 10:13 AM
in reply to: #2380080

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Science Nerd
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Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?
I signal most of the time.  If no one is around, I don't.

As far as riding on the shoulder, I don't usually.  A lot of the roads I ride on don't have shoulders or the shoulders are a couple of inches of broken concrete covered in glass or gravel.  They aren't a good place to ride my bike.
2009-08-31 10:17 AM
in reply to: #2380080

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Champion
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Philly 'burbs
Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?
Yes I use hand signals; the proper hand signals.

No, I don't avoid the shoulder. I use the shoulder when it's there and clear.
2009-08-31 10:18 AM
in reply to: #2380080

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Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?
I'm trying to use more signals.  As someone else said, some people don't feel comfortable enough to take their hands off the bars for even a second.  That's me for the most part, although I'm trying to get better about it.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but during my ride yesterday two different cars in two different (small) intersections coming from the opposite direction, either waiting at a stop sign or to make a turn, went in front of me despite my heading toward them at a decent speed.  If I'd been a car, I would have had the right of way.  I was using traffic rules as if I were a car, therefore assuming right of way down the street (no shoulder but I stayed to the right of the lane), but apparently these people didn't think so.  I had to brake hard both times and wave them on to go in front of me.  Was I wrong or were they?

Edited by happyshoes 2009-08-31 10:19 AM
2009-08-31 10:27 AM
in reply to: #2380249

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Champion
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Philly 'burbs
Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?
happyshoes - 2009-08-31 11:18 AM


Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but during my ride yesterday two different cars in two different (small) intersections coming from the opposite direction, either waiting at a stop sign or to make a turn, went in front of me despite my heading toward them at a decent speed.  If I'd been a car, I would have had the right of way.  I was using traffic rules as if I were a car, therefore assuming right of way down the street (no shoulder but I stayed to the right of the lane), but apparently these people didn't think so.  I had to brake hard both times and wave them on to go in front of me.  Was I wrong or were they?


If you had the right of way, then you had the right of way. Being hit by a car doesn't hurt any less if you were in the right. I wave at people like that too, but it's not to have them go in front of me


2009-08-31 10:30 AM
in reply to: #2380249

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Champion
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Knoxville area
Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?
happyshoes - 2009-08-31 11:18 AM I'm trying to use more signals.  As someone else said, some people don't feel comfortable enough to take their hands off the bars for even a second.  That's me for the most part, although I'm trying to get better about it.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but during my ride yesterday two different cars in two different (small) intersections coming from the opposite direction, either waiting at a stop sign or to make a turn, went in front of me despite my heading toward them at a decent speed.  If I'd been a car, I would have had the right of way.  I was using traffic rules as if I were a car, therefore assuming right of way down the street (no shoulder but I stayed to the right of the lane), but apparently these people didn't think so.  I had to brake hard both times and wave them on to go in front of me.  Was I wrong or were they?


In most area's (not 100% about all states laws) A bike is a vehicle, therefore if you would have been *in the right* in a car, you would be in the right on a bicycle.
However, just because you are right, that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do at the time.

You have to remember most likely 99% of the people on the road DO NOT know you have the same right's as they do on the road.
2009-08-31 10:35 AM
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Expert
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Thornton, CO
Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?
I'd say I signal (official signals) 90% of the time.  Even if I think no cars are around, for all I know one is sneaking up behind me without me realizing, or another cyclist is coming up on me quietly.  In small residential communities I'll tend to be more lax since I'm going slower and often need more maneuverability around parked cars, manholes, kids playing in the streets, etc.  I do however signal early and sometimes only for a short period so I can get my hands back to my bars and on the brakes as soon as possible.  I stop signal before entering the turn just in case there's gravel, glass, etc on the road in the turn.

As for the shoulder, as long as it's clean, I'm trying to stay as far away from cars as reasonably possible.  on an 8 foot (that's huge) shoulder I'd probably leave myself 2 feet on the right for safety and in case another faster cyclist needs to safely pass me on the left.

I saw a guy on my way to work riding on the wrong side of the road, no helmet, and not barely slowing down for an traffic light with a car waiting to turn right.  The road was a 4 lane road with a divider between the two sides.  That's probably worse than not signaling since the driver waiting to turn right probably won't look to the right before making his right on red.  He's not expecting someone to be coming that fast down what's essentially a one way.
2009-08-31 10:39 AM
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2009-08-31 11:02 AM
in reply to: #2380080

Fishers, IN
Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?

Reasonable questions - not all is black and white.  Do I always use hand signals, no if conditions dictate that is is less safe to do so than not.  Sometimes the road is rough, sometimes it is unneccesary and the answer is obvious.  I do try to communicate, but if in doubt I always give the car the right of way.

Do I always avoid the shoulder?  Probably not, there are some very clear stretches of shoulders and if I am riding alone or with only a couple of guys I will ride the shoulder.  In large groups, I believe the shoulder is somewhat frowned upon because its width and duration is often unpredictable.  Also, that is where the debris collects and to ride there can cause accidents.  In groups you do not have the distance to see the objects ( shoes, bricks, rocks etc.) coming up so well.  

I hate to earn riders a worse reputation among the drivers than what they have. Everyone drives and understands the drivers position, but unfortunately few drivers ride and understand our position. 

I just wish impatient drivers understood that passing on a double yellow is illegal and that they may have to choose between a head on and taking out a group of riders.  I see that come close too often.  So far it has not had to happen, but am waiting to see it.

2009-08-31 11:17 AM
in reply to: #2380080

Champion
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Knoxville area
Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?
I mean honestly, until I started riding I had no idea that you were "trapped" on your bike.

Most people's idea of riding a bike dates back to when they were kids... "get off the road and stop when a car is coming" well... thats fine on a huffy piddling around on a neighborhood street, but not on a road going 20+mph on a -2" tire with no way of "walking"


2009-08-31 11:20 AM
in reply to: #2380080

Extreme Veteran
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Buford GA
Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?
I tend to ride where there are turn lanes either the right I am taking on the way out or a left on the way back if i am doing say an out and back, so I'll point that I am going left to get to that left turn lane but usually already in the right lane so no need to there. If I see someone is going to be making a right or a left onto the lane I am in i try and make eye contact while they are looking both ways (seem to be good with that around here) and then make it clear I am going straight so either go now while I am 100 feet out or wait for me to pass.

I did go to watch a crit in a park near my GFs house last weekend which is in atlanta so lots more traffic and intersections.  I signaled for everything while there since there were tons of cars around plus cars parked on the streets so it was narrow. My GF is a keeper at the zoo that is in the park where the race was so I went to go meet her for lunch. As I was approaching the light where there is the left turn to get to her gate I look back and see a women 150+ feet approaching the RED light. Techincally the driveway for her work is before the light so you can make a left there. The driveway is also used for a POLICE station. I see she is far back and needs to slow anyway for hte light so I signal that i am moving over and going to make the left. The second I signal she starts honking at me like crazy.. So I stop at the stop line instead of making my left since she is now yelling as she approaches.

She is screaming that there is no way she could have stopped for me in time, even though she is now stopped, was actually doing well over the speed limit based on how she had to come to a stop, and there was a red light she had to stop for even if i Wasn't there. (i'm also on a bright yellow bike). I point out to here that I was in front of her and therefore LEGALLY have the right of way. She was like I was going to hit you blah blah blah.. I was at no point ever in danger she was just nuts. I pointed out again that I signaled, I Was in front and I had right of way she didn't care.... When I mentioned that she also almost hit a cyclist (according to her) in front of a police station she just starts screaming oh if you have to follow the rules then you can't run a red light. Just keeps yelling he was going to run a red light, he was going to run a red light! which actually I wasn't even going to since I could not clearly see one of the other lanes if a car as coming to make a left into the lane I"d be crossing.. that and t wouldn't be running  red light as the turn was before the light..

so yeah signaling and needing to stop anyway for a red light clearly doesn't mean anything to people.. not to mention the 10+ cop cars parked there.. Certainly didn't reinforce my want to signal since it apparently meant nothing, but like someone said earlier just reinforces you being in the right if something were to happen so I will continue.


As for the shoulder if its wide and clear I use it, if not I stay in the normal lane. There are some rumble strips in a section i ride so have to be in the lane and there is also a section with a dedicated bike lane, so I use that there unless there is debris.
2009-08-31 11:24 AM
in reply to: #2380080

Champion
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Evergreen, Colorado
Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?
If I see a car waiting on me like that I try to signal my intentions...not the official ones you learned as a kid...but pointing, etc.

I try to ride in the shoulder whenever possible.  Sometimes it is not possible.  We had this one huge hill in South Dakota that had a fairly wide shoulder...HOWEVER, in the middle of the shoulder was one of those big chatter strips another poster talked about.  You could get well up over 40+ going down this hill and there really wasn't quite enough room to hang out on the shoudler side of the chatter strips without scaring the crap out of yourself.  So I usually hung out on the white line for the duration of the hill.  I got honked at by a lot of angry drivers, but it was only for a few minutes and I was much safer there than trying to stay in a narrow strip of pavement going that fast.

If a shoulder has a lot of debris I will usually hang out on the road unless I hear a car coming up behind me.  If I hear the traffic I will temporarily move over into the debris.

But I agree that a lot of drivers probably don't understand EITHER of this situations...remember, most drivers think we can actually ride on sidewalks...so they won't understand why you can't ride in a shoulder.  They don't get things like debris, bike handling, and reaction time.
2009-08-31 11:36 AM
in reply to: #2380080

Pro
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the Alabama part of Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?
I try to signal my intentions as much as possible.  But I fall into the "point where I am going to turn" school.  I also try to wave cars to pass me if it seems clear.  I think that way they know I am aware of them being back there, and they realize I am not trying to slow them down.  In fact, I was on a ride yesterday, and even though I had already signaled my right hand turn, as I approached the turn, a car pulled from the road I was going to turn up to the main road.  He had stopped at the stop sign and I believe he was waiting for me to get by (I was pretty close at this point), so I signaled again, even though it meant taking my hand off the brake hood as I was making the turn, which made me a little nervous.

As for riding on the shoulder - not so much.  There is more possibility of debris being there, and at least where I live, the shoulder are not reliable.  I could be on one for a half mile or less, then have to pull back out onto the road.  I think it is a lot safer overall to simply ride my line.  If I lived somewhere with designated bike lanes (like I've seen in Philly) or reliable shoulders like in Maryland, I would probably ride on those.
2009-08-31 11:52 AM
in reply to: #2380461

Master
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Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?

I always signal (by pointing or waving) and get as far over to the right on the shoulder as possible.  In Georgia, there sometimes is no pavement to the right of the white line but if there is pavement over there, I'm on it.  If there is debris on the shoulder (or a hole), I make sure the way is clear, signal and move left around it.

And, as a previous poster said, I wave cars around me when it is safe to do so.

If you can't take one hand off of the handlebars to signal a turn, you are either going too fast for conditions or need to work on your bike-handling skills.  Signaling is an important (and courteous) way to tell others on the road what you are doing.  If you don't tell them, they have to guess and that is never safer for anyone.

2009-08-31 11:53 AM
in reply to: #2380080

Champion
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PA
Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?
Good conversation.  I think that communication is never bad.  I also agree with many of you that not using the "official" hand signaling is just as good, if not better.  I'm sure if many cyclist don't know it then cars and trucks don't all understand your left hand up and angled equating to a right turn.  Pointing right is a no-brainer. 

As for the shoulder, I prefer it when it is safe.  When I have a shoulder the size of the one available yesterday, it too was a no-brainer.  If a motorist was angry at the cyclists I saw, I have to say that I side with them.  As stated, the shoulder was large and clear.  I certainly understand what it is like to have to avoid the shoulder at times.  At high speeds, rough surfaces, loose stones, bloated racoons, blown out truck tires, or a shoulder that is barely a foot wide.  In the instance I cited... not so much. 

I believe that when I started riding motorcycle I viewed the road and other drivers differently.  I go out of my way to do whatever is the most safe.  It's just not worth getting hit.  A 3800lb car is mighter than the "I have a right to the road too" principle.  I prefer my risk taking be not wearing helmet while riding bikes with Obama's daughters.  Laughing


2009-08-31 11:55 AM
in reply to: #2380080

Veteran
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Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?
You can argue about the "right" to be on the road all day long.  But in the end, it's just like boating.  Even if the rule book says you have the right of way... The Biggest boat always has the right of way.
2009-08-31 12:44 PM
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the Alabama part of Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?
Indiana_Geoff - 2009-08-31 12:55 PM You can argue about the "right" to be on the road all day long.  But in the end, it's just like boating.  Even if the rule book says you have the right of way... The Biggest boat always has the right of way.


Road versus shoulder isn't just about "right to be on the road".  I think it is also a matter of being in a predictable spot on the road.  If the shoulder is long enough, not a problem. But that's not always the case.

I have a friend who is just starting out on the bike.  She is completely freaked out about being hit by a car.  So when we went through her development recently (which was very low traffic), she was weaving in and out of the parked cars, so that she could stay as close to the curb as possible .  I pointed out to her that she was actually increasing her risk of getting hit, not just from someone opening a car door, but by ducking in and out of the main part of the street, she was less predictable to the traffic. 

The boating analogy is imperfect in that small craft may not be visible to very large craft (I'm thinking especially of being on my kayak in open water).  It's also a lot easier for me in my kayak to just stop for a few minutes, or adjust my direction to avoid being hit by a larger boat.  But on the bike, I am just as visible to the trucks as the cars, and I have much less space to manuever.
2009-08-31 12:46 PM
in reply to: #2380365

Expert
1116
1000100
Thornton, CO
Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?
rc63413 - 2009-08-31 10:02 AM

I just wish impatient drivers understood that passing on a double yellow is illegal and that they may have to choose between a head on and taking out a group of riders.



Colorado recently passed a law(August 1st it became active) saying that it IS legal to pass a cyclist by crossing a double yellow line as long as it is safe to do so.  This helps with the law that requires you to give a 3 foot buffer from your mirror (or whatever is the farthest right of your car) to the cyclist.
2009-08-31 12:59 PM
in reply to: #2380080

Master
1651
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Breckenridge, CO
Subject: RE: Do you hand signal? Do you always avoid the shoulder?
I will always signal turns that could effect someone. The only exception I can think of is a right turn with no one in front of me. I did get cussed out recently by a motorist who was too dumb to know the correct signal for a right turn and yelled, "Nice signal you $#%#@."

My normal 60 miler is only on a car-legal road for about five miles but,...

I will always ride on the shoulder as long as it's wide (5-6 feet minimum), continuous, and clean. I won't ride on thin shoulders because if I'm on the shoulder, many motorists will just pass me without giving me any extra room. If the shoulder is thin or none, I ride 2-3 feet inside the line so that the motorist is forced to swerve left a bit to pass and when I hear a car approaching from behind, I can move right just as the car gets to me and give myself an extra 1-2 feet of space than the motorist intended to give me.

I really don't care about "rights" or even "laws" as I'm perfectly willing to pay my debt to society if I'm cited. My only concern is my safety and I'll do whatever I need to do to be safe even if it requires riding in the dead middle of a lane (which I will do in some rare cases).
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