General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans Rss Feed  
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2010-01-08 10:24 AM

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Subject: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/anti-cycling-facebook-page-ga... Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans By James Costley-White A Facebook group called 'There's a perfectly good path right next to the road you stupid cyclist!' has gained over 30,000 fans An anti-bike Facebook group called 'There's a perfectly good path right next to the road you stupid cyclist!' has attracted more than 32,000 fans. ....


2010-01-08 10:58 AM
in reply to: #2602861

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Expert
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Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans

This is why I spend a lot of time on my trainer



Edited by Pegasus1731 2010-01-08 10:58 AM
2010-01-08 11:01 AM
in reply to: #2602986

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Veteran
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Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans
What bothers me is that Facebook is apparently unwilling to remove the page, because by now they've certainly heard about it.  Will be sadly interesting when someone tries to use it as an excuse in court.
2010-01-08 11:15 AM
in reply to: #2602861

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Pro
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Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans

I seriously doubt it will help, but I did click the report this page and aired my feelings to FB.

 

Maybe that's what everyone should do instead of trying to get into a pi$$ing match with all the fans.

2010-01-08 11:22 AM
in reply to: #2602861

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Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans
There's another multipage thread here ("if you have a FB account") as well as on ST ("is FB not cycling friendly?") with lots of responses, it's made the rounds on all my friends, and their friends, status updates, and they've had probably several thousand reports to FB of the page.  Yet it's still up.

disappointing

2010-01-08 11:26 AM
in reply to: #2602861

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Master
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Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans
The challenge of a free society is to balance free speech and security. Free speech gives us all a platform, including the lunatics. Me, I will spend my time educating friends, family, and neighbors on road safety and how important it is they give cyclists a wide berth.

Personally, this is the best way I feel I can have an impact.

Mike


2010-01-08 11:39 AM
in reply to: #2602861

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Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans
As stupid as I think this is to have a page like this...part of me puts on the "American" and "U S of A - Freedom of Speech" hat and says that if people want to voice their ridiculous, ignorant, and immature opinions...let'em. As long as their words don't lead to actions when I am on my bike, I am fine with it. Again, its stupid and people have way too much time on their hands if they want to sit around and hate other people for a simple act of cycling ..but so be it. Its everyone's god given right to be an idiot right?



Edited by JohnAgs3 2010-01-08 11:41 AM
2010-01-08 11:46 AM
in reply to: #2603084

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Science Nerd
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Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans
Rollin' Thunder - 2010-01-08 12:26 PM The challenge of a free society is to balance free speech and security. Free speech gives us all a platform, including the lunatics. Me, I will spend my time educating friends, family, and neighbors on road safety and how important it is they give cyclists a wide berth. Personally, this is the best way I feel I can have an impact. Mike


It's already been established that sites like Facebook are not required to have free speech.  It's a privately owned website and they are allowed to censor if they want to.
2010-01-08 11:51 AM
in reply to: #2603126

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Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans
JohnAgs3 - 2010-01-08 12:39 PM As stupid as I think this is to have a page like this...part of me puts on the "American" and "U S of A - Freedom of Speech" hat and says that if people want to voice their ridiculous, ignorant, and immature opinions...let'em. As long as their words don't lead to actions when I am on my bike, I am fine with it. Again, its stupid and people have way too much time on their hands if they want to sit around and hate other people for a simple act of cycling ..but so be it. Its everyone's god given right to be an idiot right?



Except that the way in which mob mentality works is that if you believe your actions are supported by the group, your boundaries loosen. Most Germans, for example, even in the 1930's, would not have engaged in the atrocities if they did not have indoctrination and group-think.  Similarly in the US, a lot of action by gang members and klansmen occured/occurs because of a belief that it is what the group supports. Our actions are determined in part by our world-views; and our world view is created by our cognitive constructs, i.e. the words we use to define the world around us.  I am not religious at all, but I think this is one of the meanings of the story of Adam naming all the creatures around him - creating a verbal and cognitive construct of the world.

The comments being made are all like bluff-charges in both early warfare and in animal models.  The first few times, there is no real danger (usually) of harm.  But eventually, as the charging animal/person works up the courage/energy/testosterone to follow up the threat, there is an action.

Freedom of speech has recognized limits - like shouting "fire" in the crowded theater.  I am inciting a dangerous situation.  Rallying tens of thousands of people to run over cyclists is similar.
2010-01-08 11:55 AM
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Elite
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Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans
Freedom of speech ends when it is a threat to kill someone.  The threat alone is considered an assault, so for a corporation to support that language aimed at inocent riders on their webpage opens the door for any kind of organized or not so organized hate mongering that if it does lead to actions... leave the organization with some responsibility in my mind.  

Although, it is nice... I guess that these folks have put their feelings on the web so that if they ever do run into a cyclist the prosecuters can make a better case for premeditation. 

However, mob mentality is a very scary thing and is one of the ugliest sides of human behavior.

Would facebook allow a forrum that empowered folks to plan to blow up tall buildings in major cities, schools, hospitals... where do you draw the line on free speech?    
2010-01-08 11:56 AM
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Master
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Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans
Artemis, please don't get me wrong. I would love to see them remove it. I think it is silly and would be akin to a "I think all girls with blonde hair are stupid" group. We can insert any group into this phrase -- it could get real vile. I would love to pull the plug on it myself.

My point was this: just because we don't like it doesn't mean they don't have the right to say it. I am of the opinion that free speech does end once someone is injured by it, period. If this group does promote violence against cyclists, they should be shut down immediately. It can happen -- look at Dr. Thompson for what can go wrong when someone taunts a cyclist.

Mike



2010-01-08 12:06 PM
in reply to: #2603166

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Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans
Baowolf - 2010-01-08 12:55 PM

  • ..Would facebook allow a forrum that empowered folks to plan to blow up tall buildings in major cities, schools, hospitals... where do you draw the line on free speech?    


  • I was thinking about this too. If someone started an "anti-[enter any race here]" page...would that be allowed? probably not. So why would FB allow this.

    But Again, I think people have the right to think and say whatever they want. That is their right. Just as its my right to be protected on the road as a cyclist. I understand the mob mentality perspective, but I also hate the idea of regulation controlling every little thing. At some point you just hope people know right from wrong and separate action from opinion.
    2010-01-08 12:07 PM
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    Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans
    Irregardless of free speech I believe that facebooks terms of use forbid people to post/have groups/pages espousing violence or danger to other people/groups. (from an article I read yesterday is where I saw that.) If so this group and the posts made on it are clearly inciting violence against cyclists and as such Facebook should remove the page as violating their terms of use.

    This mob mentality could easily spread from Facebook/online to real life situations and when that happens, it won't end well for anyone.
    2010-01-08 12:09 PM
    in reply to: #2603170

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    Science Nerd
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    Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans
    Rollin' Thunder - 2010-01-08 12:56 PM Artemis, please don't get me wrong. I would love to see them remove it. I think it is silly and would be akin to a "I think all girls with blonde hair are stupid" group. We can insert any group into this phrase -- it could get real vile. I would love to pull the plug on it myself. My point was this: just because we don't like it doesn't mean they don't have the right to say it. I am of the opinion that free speech does end once someone is injured by it, period. If this group does promote violence against cyclists, they should be shut down immediately. It can happen -- look at Dr. Thompson for what can go wrong when someone taunts a cyclist. Mike


    Point taken.  I do agree with you.  Just wanted to point out that free speech is not a guarantee on the internet simply because many of the sites are privately owned and they can censor content as much as they want.
    2010-01-08 12:27 PM
    in reply to: #2603207

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    Master
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    Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans
    Artemis - 2010-01-08 11:09 AM

    Rollin' Thunder - 2010-01-08 12:56 PM Artemis, please don't get me wrong. I would love to see them remove it. I think it is silly and would be akin to a "I think all girls with blonde hair are stupid" group. We can insert any group into this phrase -- it could get real vile. I would love to pull the plug on it myself. My point was this: just because we don't like it doesn't mean they don't have the right to say it. I am of the opinion that free speech does end once someone is injured by it, period. If this group does promote violence against cyclists, they should be shut down immediately. It can happen -- look at Dr. Thompson for what can go wrong when someone taunts a cyclist. Mike


    Point taken.  I do agree with you.  Just wanted to point out that free speech is not a guarantee on the internet simply because many of the sites are privately owned and they can censor content as much as they want.


    Yes ma'am. I would love to see this one pulled. Like I mentioned, Dr. Thompson is a great example of what can happen when taunting a cyclist. I pray they throw the book at him. From what I have read, he has a serious pattern of similar behavior.

    Mike
    2010-01-08 12:46 PM
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    2010-01-08 1:02 PM
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    Iron Donkey
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    Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans

    Isn't this the start of a hate crime?  This should be dealt with.

    2010-01-08 1:04 PM
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    Champion
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    Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans
    Funny, isn't it, how the news every night this week and blogs of all political stripes are filled with commentary wondering why the government isn't more effectively monitoring the Internet for "red flags" suggestive of the mere possibility of terroristic violence from (typically) Muslims, who we (apparently) should be hauling in for questioning and/or detention.

    Yet overt threats against hundreds of thousands of cyclists from a widely-publicized Facebook group with tens of thousands of "fans" apparently isn't even worth discouraging, let alone shutting down.
    2010-01-08 1:12 PM
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    Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans
    I'm torn on this one. The page itself isn't advocating one way or the other, the people writing on the comments are in some cases.

    The page, yeah I know it's on a private server and such, is just someone speaking out against something. Hell even when the people write in and say to do stuff against cyclists that's still not actionable. You can plan a bank robbery all you want but until you take the first concrete step towards bringing those plans to fruition it's covered by free speech.

    I do not like advocating the Gov't shutting down someone's speech outlet just because I don't like the message it has. Perhaps the next group will not like my message and push to have mine shut down and I would not have a leg to stand on because I advocated this.

    Dunno.
    2010-01-08 1:28 PM
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    Master
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    Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans

    But now...there is a Page in Facebook "HELP TO REMOVE this HATE GROUP against cyclist" and the list is growing and growing...will reach more than 32,000 fans for sure....

    And I only have to say "SHARE THE ROADS".... 

    2010-01-08 1:57 PM
    in reply to: #2603366

    Expert
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    Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans
    DanielG - 2010-01-08 12:12 PM I'm torn on this one. The page itself isn't advocating one way or the other, the people writing on the comments are in some cases. The page, yeah I know it's on a private server and such, is just someone speaking out against something. Hell even when the people write in and say to do stuff against cyclists that's still not actionable. You can plan a bank robbery all you want but until you take the first concrete step towards bringing those plans to fruition it's covered by free speech. I do not like advocating the Gov't shutting down someone's speech outlet just because I don't like the message it has. Perhaps the next group will not like my message and push to have mine shut down and I would not have a leg to stand on because I advocated this. Dunno.


    It's illegal to plot against the government even if you never take action on those steps.  Go ahead and publish a plan for assassinating the US President and see if you get arrested for it.  So there are times there's not really "free speech".  But Facebook isn't government, they are allowed based on their TOS to remove anything they deem inappropriate.  So if they feel hate groups to be inappropriate, they can remove it.


    2010-01-08 2:29 PM
    in reply to: #2603520

    Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans
    zionvier - 2010-01-08 2:57 PM

    It's illegal to plot against the government even if you never take action on those steps.  Go ahead and publish a plan for assassinating the US President and see if you get arrested for it.  So there are times there's not really "free speech".  But Facebook isn't government, they are allowed based on their TOS to remove anything they deem inappropriate.  So if they feel hate groups to be inappropriate, they can remove it.


    I'm well aware of the plotting laws and this doesn't fall under those. I just don't know about joining in to insist someone's outlet be closed down just because I don't like the message.

    But, have fun storming the castle.
    2010-01-08 2:57 PM
    in reply to: #2603366

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    Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans
    DanielG - 2010-01-08 2:12 PM I'm torn on this one. The page itself isn't advocating one way or the other, the people writing on the comments are in some cases. The page, yeah I know it's on a private server and such, is just someone speaking out against something. Hell even when the people write in and say to do stuff against cyclists that's still not actionable. You can plan a bank robbery all you want but until you take the first concrete step towards bringing those plans to fruition it's covered by free speech. I do not like advocating the Gov't shutting down someone's speech outlet just because I don't like the message it has. Perhaps the next group will not like my message and push to have mine shut down and I would not have a leg to stand on because I advocated this. Dunno.


    This isn't asking the governemnt to stop free speech, or censor someone.  This is asking a private organization to stop allowing advocacy of violence.  If you go to the local coffee shop, and ask to put up a flyer, that is free speech.  The shop has the right to say yes or no. Saying no is not government censorship.  The "report this site" button is not connected to some secret nefarious government agency (I don't think so, anyway).  It goes back to the FB management. 

    Imagine if you went to the coffee shop and asked to put up a flyer about a community rally.  They say yes.  Then your flyer says "Rally to get rid of XXXX nationality from our community".  If they take down your flyer, that is both within their legal rights and also the commonly decent thing to do.

    If you agree with the FB sentiment, then don't ask to see it removed.  If you don't believe that FB and other social networking sites mean anything outside the bubble of the interwebs, don't ask to see it removed.  If you don't think that protesting it will make any difference, don't ask to see it removed.  And if you think all the attention it gets is what is feeding the issue, and that the best approach is to starve it, don't ask to see it removed. But none of it has anything to do with government regulation of free speech.
    2010-01-08 3:40 PM
    in reply to: #2603422

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    Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans
    velorider62 - 2010-01-08 2:28 PM

    But now...there is a Page in Facebook "HELP TO REMOVE this HATE GROUP against cyclist" and the list is growing and growing...will reach more than 32,000 fans for sure....

    And I only have to say "SHARE THE ROADS".... 



    Here's a link to the group.... http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=235515394023&ref=search&sid=1... hopefully it will outgrow the cyclist-haters group....
    2010-01-08 4:59 PM
    in reply to: #2603635

    Champion
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    Subject: RE: Anti-cycling Facebook page gains 32,000 fans
    DanielG - 2010-01-08 3:29 PM
    zionvier - 2010-01-08 2:57 PM It's illegal to plot against the government even if you never take action on those steps.  Go ahead and publish a plan for assassinating the US President and see if you get arrested for it.  So there are times there's not really "free speech".  But Facebook isn't government, they are allowed based on their TOS to remove anything they deem inappropriate.  So if they feel hate groups to be inappropriate, they can remove it.
    I'm well aware of the plotting laws and this doesn't fall under those. I just don't know about joining in to insist someone's outlet be closed down just because I don't like the message. But, have fun storming the castle.


    You worded my thoughts better than I did in the previous thread. 
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