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The "No Kids Club" (Page 2)
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 2010-08-11 2:31 PM in reply to: #3037676 |
 Alpharetta, Georgia Bronze member |  Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club"moondawg14 - 2010-08-11 2:30 PM rayd - 2010-08-10 3:25 PM lisac957 - 2010-08-11 1:23 PM ashort33 - 2010-08-11 1:55 PM I was in the do not want kids club for a while, but then along came my daughter (she's 9 now). For those that think they have a full life now, you cannot realize what you are missing. I am sure there will be heartache along the way somewhere, but the joy of watching that little soul develop will more than make up for it. I'm not sure it's fair to say this - it's a pretty broad generalization. I have a couple of friends who had children who will readily admit they still wish they hadn't. I mean, of course they love their children and all of that, but they have both said they thought someday they'd come around, but just never did. One of them even said her and her daughter just don't like each other - her daughter is 2. Having kids is NOT for everyone, and those who don't have them shouldn't feel guilty or made to feel as if they're "missing out" on something. now that is a very sad statement. +1 this x2. My heart aches for that little girl. I know, me too. But the point is that this is what happens when people are pressured or guilted into having kids when they really don't want to. We shouldn't assume kids are for everyone, or that we all want them. Clearly that is not the case. |
| 2010-08-11 2:33 PM in reply to: #3037675 |
Master  2380   Beijing | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" Kido - 2010-08-10 3:30 PM lisac957 - 2010-08-11 12:23 PM ashort33 - 2010-08-11 1:55 PM I was in the do not want kids club for a while, but then along came my daughter (she's 9 now). For those that think they have a full life now, you cannot realize what you are missing. I am sure there will be heartache along the way somewhere, but the joy of watching that little soul develop will more than make up for it. I'm not sure it's fair to say this - it's a pretty broad generalization. I have a couple of friends who had children who will readily admit they still wish they hadn't. I mean, of course they love their children and all of that, but they have both said they thought someday they'd come around, but just never did. One of them even said her and her daughter just don't like each other - her daughter is 2. Having kids is NOT for everyone, and those who don't have them shouldn't feel guilty or made to feel as if they're "missing out" on something. I agree... I guess the statement COULD be true no matter the situation. No one realizes what they are missing IF they are "missing" it!!! They could be missing on hell on earth. Problem kids that terrorize everyone they come in contact with, violent people that cause heartbreak and grief your entire life... And we don't "realize what we are missing"... Which could be a good thing. But in general, everyone assumes we are "missing" out on good things if we don't have kids. Which may or may not be true. I try to inflict my kids on everyone possible. That way no one has to "miss out." |
| 2010-08-11 2:35 PM in reply to: #3037641 |
Master 1517  Western MA near the VT & NH border on the CT river | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" moondawg14 - 2010-08-11 3:18 PM ratherbesnowboarding - 2010-08-10 2:29 PM This has been weighing on me b/c I have a couple of friends that are trying and not having luck. They spent 10's of thousands of dollars on shots and exams and such (They stopped short of the turkey baster) They have now decided that kids will not be in their future and are starting to be OK w/ it - they like being uber cool auntie and uncle too. I have two other couple friends that are not having kids by choice as well so they dont have 'little reminders' running around when we get together. They need to watch out, because stress is one of the biggest obstacles! Happens to alot of couples who adopt, stop fretting about getting pregnant, and then whammo! We experienced it as well with our biological children. Wife was super-stressed about getting pregnant.... didn't happen. Doctor finally agreed to see us about fertility issues (they won't see you unless you've been trying for a year) and before we could get to the appointment she was pregnant. We adopted our daughter, and then decided to try for #3 a few months later. Charlie surprised us both by coming along right after we started "trying" This happened to my wife's cousin and aunt (different sides of family) and I am hoping (silently) that this happens for my freind as well. They were super stressed about getting pregnant, and she was dealing w/ the death of her father at the same time. They tried pretty hard for 3 years and now that over a year has passed since they 'gave up' I am hopeful for them that nature takes its course. But I am also happy that they are accepting their lot and are not letting it consume them w/ depression. They ended up getting another dog. |
| 2010-08-11 2:37 PM in reply to: #3037682 |
Master 2380 Beijing | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" lisac957 - 2010-08-10 3:31 PM moondawg14 - 2010-08-11 2:30 PM rayd - 2010-08-10 3:25 PM lisac957 - 2010-08-11 1:23 PM ashort33 - 2010-08-11 1:55 PM I was in the do not want kids club for a while, but then along came my daughter (she's 9 now). For those that think they have a full life now, you cannot realize what you are missing. I am sure there will be heartache along the way somewhere, but the joy of watching that little soul develop will more than make up for it. I'm not sure it's fair to say this - it's a pretty broad generalization. I have a couple of friends who had children who will readily admit they still wish they hadn't. I mean, of course they love their children and all of that, but they have both said they thought someday they'd come around, but just never did. One of them even said her and her daughter just don't like each other - her daughter is 2. Having kids is NOT for everyone, and those who don't have them shouldn't feel guilty or made to feel as if they're "missing out" on something. now that is a very sad statement. +1 this x2. My heart aches for that little girl. I know, me too. But the point is that this is what happens when people are pressured or guilted into having kids when they really don't want to. We shouldn't assume kids are for everyone, or that we all want them. Clearly that is not the case. We are in 100% agreement. After two comments from my mother about us having kids, I told her in no uncertain terms that we were in full control of our reproductive future. I didn't use the words STFU, but my tone certainly let it be known. There were no further problems. In fact, I should hire myself out as a Mother Shutter-Upper. (I'll do mother-in-laws for free, since i'm contracturally prohibited from shutting-up my own.) |
| 2010-08-11 2:39 PM in reply to: #3037687 |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" moondawg14 - 2010-08-11 12:33 PM Kido - 2010-08-10 3:30 PM lisac957 - 2010-08-11 12:23 PM ashort33 - 2010-08-11 1:55 PM I was in the do not want kids club for a while, but then along came my daughter (she's 9 now). For those that think they have a full life now, you cannot realize what you are missing. I am sure there will be heartache along the way somewhere, but the joy of watching that little soul develop will more than make up for it. I'm not sure it's fair to say this - it's a pretty broad generalization. I have a couple of friends who had children who will readily admit they still wish they hadn't. I mean, of course they love their children and all of that, but they have both said they thought someday they'd come around, but just never did. One of them even said her and her daughter just don't like each other - her daughter is 2. Having kids is NOT for everyone, and those who don't have them shouldn't feel guilty or made to feel as if they're "missing out" on something. I agree... I guess the statement COULD be true no matter the situation. No one realizes what they are missing IF they are "missing" it!!! They could be missing on hell on earth. Problem kids that terrorize everyone they come in contact with, violent people that cause heartbreak and grief your entire life... And we don't "realize what we are missing"... Which could be a good thing. But in general, everyone assumes we are "missing" out on good things if we don't have kids. Which may or may not be true. I try to inflict my kids on everyone possible. That way no one has to "miss out." ha! Those are the times that "not having kids" doesn't seem like that crazy an idea! I thank some of my family and friends for a "reality check" for not taking being a DINK for granted! |
| 2010-08-11 2:41 PM in reply to: #3037419 |
Master 1517 Western MA near the VT & NH border on the CT river | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" I always say the best birth control is to go to a Wal-Mart and watch the kids and how the act and interact w/ their parents.... I dont think I'm missing anything there |
| 2010-08-11 2:41 PM in reply to: #3037701 |
Pro 4277 Parker, CO | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" moondawg14 - 2010-08-11 1:37 PM In fact, I should hire myself out as a Mother Shutter-Upper. (I'll do mother-in-laws for free, since i'm contracturally prohibited from shutting-up my own.) Great! you want to shut up-mine and I'll shut-up yours? |
| 2010-08-11 2:51 PM in reply to: #3037419 |
Royal(PITA) 14270 West Chester, Ohio | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" I spent 10 years in the "can't cause of medical reasons" camp. Broke my heart. Ex MIL used to send us letters saying I'm knitting.....in case there are any grandbabies on the way" Talk about salt in a wound!! Finally decided that having a child while married to an overgrown child was not in the best interest of anyone. Left the overgrown child. Long story made short, after the overgrown child died I remarried and found myself pregnant within 3 months without trying. She was 9 months old when I got pregnant with child #2. There was most definitely a reason for those 10 years.....as well as the rapid succession of pregnancies when I remarried. THis is a decision that is highly personal and should not be judged by anyone outside the relationship. |
| 2010-08-11 2:52 PM in reply to: #3037679 |
Master 2380 Beijing | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" Kido - 2010-08-10 3:31 PM moondawg14 - 2010-08-11 12:30 PM rayd - 2010-08-10 3:25 PM lisac957 - 2010-08-11 1:23 PM ashort33 - 2010-08-11 1:55 PM I was in the do not want kids club for a while, but then along came my daughter (she's 9 now). For those that think they have a full life now, you cannot realize what you are missing. I am sure there will be heartache along the way somewhere, but the joy of watching that little soul develop will more than make up for it. I'm not sure it's fair to say this - it's a pretty broad generalization. I have a couple of friends who had children who will readily admit they still wish they hadn't. I mean, of course they love their children and all of that, but they have both said they thought someday they'd come around, but just never did. One of them even said her and her daughter just don't like each other - her daughter is 2. Having kids is NOT for everyone, and those who don't have them shouldn't feel guilty or made to feel as if they're "missing out" on something. now that is a very sad statement. +1 this x2. My heart aches for that little girl. why not the mom? Because Mom was able to choose. I feel bad for her, but in a different way than the daughter. There's some context missing too.... I'd probably feel much worse for the Mom if I knew that she was extremely upset about not having a connection with her daughter. I got the feeling this was not the case. I could be wrong, but from Lisa's post I got the feeling that Mom decided to have kids, it didn't "work out" and now she's basically like "Well, this stinks. Oh well." I know, I know, alot to glean from one second-hand post. |
| 2010-08-11 3:03 PM in reply to: #3037659 |
Champion 5495 Whizzzzzlandia Silver member | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" lisac957 - 2010-08-11 2:23 PM ashort33 - 2010-08-11 1:55 PM I was in the do not want kids club for a while, but then along came my daughter (she's 9 now). For those that think they have a full life now, you cannot realize what you are missing. I am sure there will be heartache along the way somewhere, but the joy of watching that little soul develop will more than make up for it. I'm not sure it's fair to say this - it's a pretty broad generalization. I have a couple of friends who had children who will readily admit they still wish they hadn't. I mean, of course they love their children and all of that, but they have both said they thought someday they'd come around, but just never did. One of them even said her and her daughter just don't like each other - her daughter is 2. Having kids is NOT for everyone, and those who don't have them shouldn't feel guilty or made to feel as if they're "missing out" on something. Amen. |
| 2010-08-11 3:11 PM in reply to: #3037419 |
Regular 73 | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" As my BT name suggests, I am a dad - of 3 really neat little boys, ages 3, 7, and 11. They are each completely unique and I have loved watching them grow and mature. I spend as much time with them as I can. |
| 2010-08-11 3:13 PM in reply to: #3037419 |
Champion 10668 Tacoma, Washington | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" For a very long time, I was in the "no kids" zone. Maybe I was just in a very selfish point in my life, I just didn't want children, didn't want the constant pull for attention, the financial drain, all the school/camp/sports/driving-around that went with them. At some point, I relented. Can't even really say I truly "wanted" to have children, just maybe felt it was time. That was over 10 years ago. I now have a 9 year old daughter who's great (though she is a bit of a constant pull for attention). |
| 2010-08-11 3:13 PM in reply to: #3037419 |
Queen BTich 12411 , | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" For those choosing to not have children, Childless by Choice is a great book. It really gave me another perspective on how to deal with our decision. I'm pretty outspoken/bold, so I don't have a problem discussing my choice when people want to be rude to me about it. Often, they don't realize what they say is rude or hurtful. Such as, "you're young, you'll change your mind" or "when you meet the right person you'll change your mind." Some have implied or straight out said that I was being irresponsible, selfish or mean for not having them! They don't know my past, they don't know my reasons. If the case was, "I can't have children due to medical reasons" they'd feel bad and generally shut up. It shouldn't be that way. I'd rather myself or anyone make a conscious, thought-out decision to not have them than get pregnant without the means or love to provide to a child. Touchy subject for me. I respect your decision to have children, my decision to not have them should be respected also. BTW: I started telling my mother as a teenager I would not be having kids. Didn't change after I got married (and divorced) and still hasn't. I wholeheartedly believe I'm missing the "mom" gene and I'm thankful. Edited by Comet 2010-08-11 3:20 PM |
| 2010-08-11 3:14 PM in reply to: #3037701 |
Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" moondawg14 - 2010-08-11 3:37 PM After two comments from my mother about us having kids, I told her in no uncertain terms that we were in full control of our reproductive future. I didn't use the words STFU, but my tone certainly let it be known. There were no further problems. In fact, I should hire myself out as a Mother Shutter-Upper. (I'll do mother-in-laws for free, since i'm contracturally prohibited from shutting-up my own.) My daughter may contact you. Her mom (my ex) will not get off her case. I never could get that woman to shut up but maybe you can. ETA - obviously I have kids; two adult children and two step kids. Raising teenagers all over again  I love being a dad and step dad. Someday I will love being a grandfather. Edited by mrbbrad 2010-08-11 3:15 PM |
| 2010-08-11 3:16 PM in reply to: #3037753 |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" moondawg14 - 2010-08-11 12:52 PM Kido - 2010-08-10 3:31 PM moondawg14 - 2010-08-11 12:30 PM rayd - 2010-08-10 3:25 PM lisac957 - 2010-08-11 1:23 PM ashort33 - 2010-08-11 1:55 PM I was in the do not want kids club for a while, but then along came my daughter (she's 9 now). For those that think they have a full life now, you cannot realize what you are missing. I am sure there will be heartache along the way somewhere, but the joy of watching that little soul develop will more than make up for it. I'm not sure it's fair to say this - it's a pretty broad generalization. I have a couple of friends who had children who will readily admit they still wish they hadn't. I mean, of course they love their children and all of that, but they have both said they thought someday they'd come around, but just never did. One of them even said her and her daughter just don't like each other - her daughter is 2. Having kids is NOT for everyone, and those who don't have them shouldn't feel guilty or made to feel as if they're "missing out" on something. now that is a very sad statement. +1 this x2. My heart aches for that little girl. why not the mom? Because Mom was able to choose. I feel bad for her, but in a different way than the daughter. There's some context missing too.... I'd probably feel much worse for the Mom if I knew that she was extremely upset about not having a connection with her daughter. I got the feeling this was not the case. I could be wrong, but from Lisa's post I got the feeling that Mom decided to have kids, it didn't "work out" and now she's basically like "Well, this stinks. Oh well." I know, I know, alot to glean from one second-hand post. Fair enough. We all draw from personal experiences. I guess I was referencing something in my personal life... Family wanted a third child. First two kids are wonderful. Third? Something is up for some reason. I have to assume similar upbringing, so it wasn't a "choice" to have a bad relationship... BUT, this child has some issues. Violent, says very hatefull and violent things towards everyone in the family, scary types of behavior. They have tried everything they can to help/resolve the issues with not much luck (inluding professional help). I don't really feal bad for the child in this case for having a parent that "doesn't get along" or have some sadness in the situation. I feel bad for the parents. |
| 2010-08-11 3:24 PM in reply to: #3037478 |
Elite 2729 Puyallup, WA | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" lisac957 - 2010-08-11 1:25 PM I put "by choice" because I guess it's my choice to have not found the right person to want to have kids with yet, or to not have had children when I was with someone. I am still undecided on whether kids are for me or not. Lately, I've been in the "not" category most of the time. Maybe that will change when I meet the right person. Hard to say. Lately I've been leaning towards yes...but then I think "what am I thinking?!?!" However, I agree with another poster. Do not let other people convince you having kids is what is right for you (as I'm sure you realize...). In reality - not having kids is as big of a decision as having kids!! |
| 2010-08-11 3:54 PM in reply to: #3037829 |
Pro 4578 Vancouver, BC | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" Pretty much x2 to what Comet said above. I sometimes feel like just telling people that I'm not having children due to medical issues. I shouldn't have to say this. My mother has encouraged me not to have children. She's been pretty honest with me about not being sure if she'd have children if she could do it all over again. I appreciate her honesty. |
| 2010-08-11 3:59 PM in reply to: #3037687 |
Expert 1151 Las Vegas, NV | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" moondawg14 - 2010-08-11 2:33 PM Kido - 2010-08-10 3:30 PM lisac957 - 2010-08-11 12:23 PM ashort33 - 2010-08-11 1:55 PM I was in the do not want kids club for a while, but then along came my daughter (she's 9 now). For those that think they have a full life now, you cannot realize what you are missing. I am sure there will be heartache along the way somewhere, but the joy of watching that little soul develop will more than make up for it. I'm not sure it's fair to say this - it's a pretty broad generalization. I have a couple of friends who had children who will readily admit they still wish they hadn't. I mean, of course they love their children and all of that, but they have both said they thought someday they'd come around, but just never did. One of them even said her and her daughter just don't like each other - her daughter is 2. Having kids is NOT for everyone, and those who don't have them shouldn't feel guilty or made to feel as if they're "missing out" on something. I agree... I guess the statement COULD be true no matter the situation. No one realizes what they are missing IF they are "missing" it!!! They could be missing on hell on earth. Problem kids that terrorize everyone they come in contact with, violent people that cause heartbreak and grief your entire life... And we don't "realize what we are missing"... Which could be a good thing. But in general, everyone assumes we are "missing" out on good things if we don't have kids. Which may or may not be true. I try to inflict my kids on everyone possible. That way no one has to "miss out." LMAO...love it! Edited by jpbis26 2010-08-11 4:06 PM |
| 2010-08-11 4:11 PM in reply to: #3037978 |
Master 1517 Western MA near the VT & NH border on the CT river | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" jeng - 2010-08-11 4:54 PM Pretty much x2 to what Comet said above. I sometimes feel like just telling people that I'm not having children due to medical issues. I shouldn't have to say this. My mother has encouraged me not to have children. She's been pretty honest with me about not being sure if she'd have children if she could do it all over again. I appreciate her honesty. We pretty much gave my mom that impression - that we did try and its a medical issue that made the final decision. She seems OK w/ that as an explanation, but not if it was a choice. A few years ago I got the 'selfish and irresponsible' arguement from my mom. This was a year after when we had adopted an 11 year old, blind, diabetic and incontinent Irish Setter from the animal hospital where my wife was working. Lots of responsibility in his care (lived for an additional 2.5 years BTW) She equated having kids with being a responsible adult. So one time I asked her, "who do you want taking care of the horses when your away? Me or [my aunt that has two kids]" Her reply - "you of course" she said w/ a small chuckle "But wouldnt [my aunt] be a better choice since she has two teenage kids and horses herself? Doesnt that make her more responsible than me w/o kids" She left the room. |
| 2010-08-11 4:19 PM in reply to: #3037419 |
Pro 4292 Evanston, | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" None of the poll options fit, so I will add: "no kids, because the right partner never came along." Actually I did NOT want to have kids until, at 33, I was engaged to a man who persuaded me that we should have and/or adopt kids. Basically I got to where I could wrap my mind around the concept, and it stayed in my brain. Then we ended up not getting married (which was a VERY. GOOD. THING!) Since then, I have still not wanted to give birth---that was kind of a compromise, I guess, for the guy--but the desire to RAISE a child has still remained. Lately, in particular, I have wanted to adopt a little girl, but at this point I know it is not something I could handle alone. But, I am not "planning" to marry. Maybe God plans for me to marry, maybe not, but it's not something I've penciled in! So: no partner, no kids, mixed feelings about that. |
| 2010-08-11 4:29 PM in reply to: #3037419 |
Expert 2189 Dodge County, MN (out in the corn) | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" My husband and I talked about kids way before we got married. Neither one of us wanted kids. That was over 15 years ago and nothing has changed. Lots of people told me that I'd change my mind. Lots of people promised me that I'd feel differently when I had one of my own. I don't want to take that chance. We're firmly in the "No Kids Club" and love our lifestyle. I'm a teacher so I get my kid quota 180 days a year and that's enough for me. |
| 2010-08-11 4:37 PM in reply to: #3037419 |
Expert 1151 Las Vegas, NV | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" I have 3 kids (ages 5, 3, & 1) and I've always known that I've wanted kids. But like others have posted, I completely respect and understand those who do not what kids. I had my 1st when I was 25 and had been married for less than 2 years. Looking back on it, I knew having kids would be a huge change, but I def did not fully comprehend how it would impact my career, finances, and time. I have no regrets about having my kids when I was young, but I do sometimes wonder what it would have been like if I had waited 5 or 10 years. If my husband and I had traveled more, if I had more time/money to pursue my career/hobbies. I really don't make any decisions before considering my husband and kids and sometimes I wonder what that freedom would be like. My brother and his wife have chosen not to have kids, and are able to afford (both financially and time wise) to do a lot of things I can't. But like someone else said, my kids will be grown and doing their own thing (hopefully) when I'm in my 50s, so I know I'll have more time/money to pursue some of my own goals then. And, I really get so much joy from my kids, that I don't mind other aspects of my life not being a priority for now. I'm very lucky that all my kids are healthy and I don't just love them, but also get along with all of them personality wise (yes, even my one year old has a very distinct personality). Really, I have the luxury of being a pretty laid back parent and still being able to do somethings for myself (like triathlons). Not everyone I know (with kids & without) has been so lucky. Edited by jpbis26 2010-08-11 4:42 PM |
| 2010-08-11 4:50 PM in reply to: #3037419 |
| Regular 79 | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" I'm a young parent as well, 29 with a 4 year old girl and 2 year old boy. Life is GREAT with kids and life is GREAT when they are gone for the weekend. I definitely see both sides of the fence, and sometimes jealous of the ones who are free from kids. On a side note - the adults my kids love the most (outside of family) are the ones who don't have kids. All of the adults I know who don't want don't have kids are awesome with mine, get down on the floor-throw the ball-push the swing type fun. Once they get their fill they leave, while I'm left with bath tub, reading books, and singing songs for the little ones. |
| 2010-08-11 4:57 PM in reply to: #3038139 |
Pro 4292 Evanston, | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" ydarb - 2010-08-11 5:50 PM I'm a young parent as well, 29 with a 4 year old girl and 2 year old boy. Life is GREAT with kids and life is GREAT when they are gone for the weekend. I definitely see both sides of the fence, and sometimes jealous of the ones who are free from kids. On a side note - the adults my kids love the most (outside of family) are the ones who don't have kids. All of the adults I know who don't want don't have kids are awesome with mine, get down on the floor-throw the ball-push the swing type fun. Once they get their fill they leave, while I'm left with bath tub, reading books, and singing songs for the little ones. Which is exactly why it is awesome to be The Aunt. We swoop in with our exotic, non-family-centric lives, do wild and fun things... then leave then back with their parents! :D This is true with my nephews and also with kids at church, a couple of whom seek me out every week for a big hug, which is just about the most awesome thing ever. So yeah, I'd say many of us love your kids. |
| 2010-08-11 4:59 PM in reply to: #3038139 |
Champion 10019 , Minnesota Bronze member | Subject: RE: The "No Kids Club" I think kids are cool. I have 5 nieces, one nephew, and I'm honorary "Aunt Emily" to a few other kids in my life and hope to collect more. I, however, don't want kids of my own. I explained this to my husband before we married so he'd have an out, and I wouldn't blame him. He accepted his lot and we have a pretty cool life, I think. Two things about this bug me: 1. So many people still accept having kids at the norm and you therefore are wrong, or at least must explain yourself if you don't. 2. People say I am being selfish. Give me one unselfish reason to have kids. Seriously. I've been waiting to hear a good answer to this one for years. $20 to the first person with an answer. I do think society has become more understanding over even the 10 our so years I have been upfront about this. MANY of my friends are also child-free, which is obviously what happens... I did happen to notice at a party recently, hosted by a triathlon friend from BT, that several of us other BTers were also child-free. I am sure there's correlation having to do with time, money, etc. |
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