Mad Manatee Mentors CLOSED (Poptart/pet pic bribes?) (Page 21)

Originally posted by msteiner

Originally posted by IndoIronYanti

Originally posted by StaceyK

Originally posted by popsracer

Do your easy runs gets faster over time or do you try to stick with a certain pace over long periods of time?  I know a lot of fast runners run most of their miles at what would seem really slow compared to what they race or do quality workouts at.  As the fast get faster do easy runs stay the same and just get easier with more emphasis on improving quality workout paces or do all types of workouts get progressively faster?  I hope that question makes sense.

I ask because my easy runs have progressively gotten faster over the last three years or so.  I'm beginning to wonder if I am running them too fast compared to my race times.  I try to follow Jack Daniels pace charts but my VDOT varies widely (42-47) depending on the race distance I use to calculate my paces and I feel I need to back off.  What is your rule of thumb for easy pace runs?

if its between walking and dying for me then its an easy pace its a pretty narrow window between the two. (but I'm just new to running) so dumb question but what is VDOT and what's the purpose of measuring it?

Here's a good explanation from the man (Jack Daniels) himself:

http://www.runnersworld.com/workouts/threshold-training-finding-your-vdot

Basically, it's a gauge of your effort levels during a race--then extrapolates to other race distances but most importantly to give you a range of training paces so you can train more effectively.

I'm pretty biased, but when I was struggling with getting faster on the run I was told to get the book "Jack Daniels' Running Formula".  You can find it online for next to nothing, but it's a great system that transformed my running.  I love the concept of "if you think your training paces are too slow, then prove it in a race!".

Following the 5-15k program in that same book helped me get my first sub 40 10k.

I did the same and bought the e-book (on the advice of a very Salty Pod-mate).  Great book and very helpful if you're willing to geek out juuuuuust a bit.

I find my slow pace does get faster when I'm increasingly fit (and vice versa).  It is still silly slow compared to what many folks run for their slow paces, but see bold above!

As long as it feels too slow, it's probably about right.  

Matt

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Originally posted by msteiner

Originally posted by IndoIronYanti

Originally posted by StaceyK

Originally posted by popsracer

Do your easy runs gets faster over time or do you try to stick with a certain pace over long periods of time?  I know a lot of fast runners run most of their miles at what would seem really slow compared to what they race or do quality workouts at.  As the fast get faster do easy runs stay the same and just get easier with more emphasis on improving quality workout paces or do all types of workouts get progressively faster?  I hope that question makes sense.

I ask because my easy runs have progressively gotten faster over the last three years or so.  I'm beginning to wonder if I am running them too fast compared to my race times.  I try to follow Jack Daniels pace charts but my VDOT varies widely (42-47) depending on the race distance I use to calculate my paces and I feel I need to back off.  What is your rule of thumb for easy pace runs?

if its between walking and dying for me then its an easy pace its a pretty narrow window between the two. (but I'm just new to running) so dumb question but what is VDOT and what's the purpose of measuring it?

Here's a good explanation from the man (Jack Daniels) himself:

http://www.runnersworld.com/workouts/threshold-training-finding-your-vdot

Basically, it's a gauge of your effort levels during a race--then extrapolates to other race distances but most importantly to give you a range of training paces so you can train more effectively.

I'm pretty biased, but when I was struggling with getting faster on the run I was told to get the book "Jack Daniels' Running Formula".  You can find it online for next to nothing, but it's a great system that transformed my running.  I love the concept of "if you think your training paces are too slow, then prove it in a race!".

Following the 5-15k program in that same book helped me get my first sub 40 10k.

I did the same and bought the e-book (on the advice of a very Salty Pod-mate).  Great book and very helpful if you're willing to geek out juuuuuust a bit.

I find my slow pace does get faster when I'm increasingly fit (and vice versa).  It is still silly slow compared to what many folks run for their slow paces, but see bold above!

As long as it feels too slow, it's probably about right.  

Matt

This is me too - or at least the me of the last 6-8 months.  I had been training with a fast for me training pace for my long runs(which varies with fitness), but sometime last summer slowed things down. I have not been able to really check how that will translate to races as I've been on the D/L for a non-run related injury, but so far I am happy with the way things are going. And, my chronically wonky hamstring finally healed.     

Any thoughts on following a swimming training plan vs. swimming with a masters group?  My masters group meets for 1.5 hour sessions.  I usually do a couple a week.

For me (and it's been a while, BTW) everything gets "faster" when I am getting " faster". It's not a equal growth curve, but my "slow" does get faster when things are going well.  So, as a generalization, while my racing may improve by 30 seconds per mile, my EZ may increase by 15 or so.  One other thing I've noted before is that I tend to improve in a more stair like manner then a consistent curve. I keep taking steps up, rather than a smooth gradual improvement.

Wish I knew, as I'm thinking about trying a masters group but never have.  I'd **imagine** that it depends both on what motivates you (can you hit workout targets on your own, or do you do better with the competition/encouragement of others in the pool with you) and the types of workouts that masters group does.

If their workouts are close to what you need, I could see it being very helpful (swimming with swimmers, running with runners, riding with cyclists - all tend to up one's game).  However, if you have a few things that you need to work on (and know what they are and how to do that - or have a coach, etc.), then it's time not spent on those things.

All in, I'm going to give it a go and see what happens, I think.  For me, I've found that I need to get some long intervals in weekly (I know that this goes against the received wisdom for how to swim, but it has helped me racing), so I'll probably mix some masters with some longer, solo OWS.

How was that for not particularly helpful?!? 

Would love to hear others' thoughts.

Matt

Good stuff! 150m is infinitely more than zero

Have you injured yourself swimming? or does this apply more to cycling and running?

At the end of my 2011 season I was pretty unsatisfied with my swim vs my bike and run.  I started swimming with my local masters group and improved greatly.  I then got to a point where my workouts needed to be more specific for what I was training for vs what the masters workouts were targeting.  

If your goal is to improve your swimming in general then masters will help tons.  Once you start targeting goals more specifically you'll likely be following a plan where your swims don't align with the group anymore.  I got to that point last year.

I highly recommend masters swim.  I am lucky in that mine is geared towards triathletes, but I swim more, longer and harder than I ever did when I was swimming on my own.  

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Originally posted by msteiner

Originally posted by IndoIronYanti

Originally posted by StaceyK

Originally posted by popsracer

Do your easy runs gets faster over time or do you try to stick with a certain pace over long periods of time?  I know a lot of fast runners run most of their miles at what would seem really slow compared to what they race or do quality workouts at.  As the fast get faster do easy runs stay the same and just get easier with more emphasis on improving quality workout paces or do all types of workouts get progressively faster?  I hope that question makes sense.

I ask because my easy runs have progressively gotten faster over the last three years or so.  I'm beginning to wonder if I am running them too fast compared to my race times.  I try to follow Jack Daniels pace charts but my VDOT varies widely (42-47) depending on the race distance I use to calculate my paces and I feel I need to back off.  What is your rule of thumb for easy pace runs?

if its between walking and dying for me then its an easy pace its a pretty narrow window between the two. (but I'm just new to running) so dumb question but what is VDOT and what's the purpose of measuring it?

Here's a good explanation from the man (Jack Daniels) himself:

http://www.runnersworld.com/workouts/threshold-training-finding-your-vdot

Basically, it's a gauge of your effort levels during a race--then extrapolates to other race distances but most importantly to give you a range of training paces so you can train more effectively.

I'm pretty biased, but when I was struggling with getting faster on the run I was told to get the book "Jack Daniels' Running Formula".  You can find it online for next to nothing, but it's a great system that transformed my running.  I love the concept of "if you think your training paces are too slow, then prove it in a race!".

Following the 5-15k program in that same book helped me get my first sub 40 10k.

I did the same and bought the e-book (on the advice of a very Salty Pod-mate).  Great book and very helpful if you're willing to geek out juuuuuust a bit.

I find my slow pace does get faster when I'm increasingly fit (and vice versa).  It is still silly slow compared to what many folks run for their slow paces, but see bold above!

As long as it feels too slow, it's probably about right.  

Matt

Another Daniels disciple here.  Even as I progressed and my VDOTs were going up, for some reason my slow "E" pace stayed more or less the same.  There are also a bunch of factors that influence that pace, like heat/terrain/etc.  I generally didn't worry about it, though I could've used the extra 10-15 minutes from running a 10 mile run a little faster.  :-)

My flight was cancelled today...UGH!!  I left the house at 9 AM in a snowstorm (flight was reading ON TIME when I left) and then it was delayed when I got to the airport, and then cancelled 20 minutes later.  Afternoon flight was sold out so they told me the they could put me on the 8:30 PM.  Uh...I think I'll just go tomorrow and go home for the day.

AHHHHH....winter travel on the East Coast.

This was kind of my experience other than I only lasted a few sessions with the local masters group.  I can certainly see the benefit as others have described but in addition to the workout plans straying from my goals I could not make it to the evening sessions (forget about getting up at 6:00 for the early session).  Too big of a time carve out for swimming.  I have switched to swimming on my lunch hour.  My workouts are shorter because I can't take a two hour lunch but they also do not interfere with my family time or my run/bike time.

Reminds me I need to get back to the pool after my late fall/early winter break.  I keep putting it off. 

In the past I have injured myself from lifting too heavy too fast and running too much too soon.  Outside of accidents I've never had a major injury on a bike, and haven't swam for exercise enough to know whether or not it will become an issue.  Guess I will find out!  Easing into everything helps with my motivation too it seems.  I was always motivated by a coach growing up in sports so its relatively new to be completely in charge of that mentally I guess.

For me, not really. But it depends a lot on what I am doing. Volume seems sets my 'easy' pacing vs the progression of my performance/speed.

I would caution you not to run much faster than the VDOT prescribed easy paces, though. Running faster easy runs isn't really doing much for you, physiologically, its just putting more stress on your body and making your races and quality workouts suffer. 

We seem to be alternating between snow and 50's.  Just about the time the snow melts off, we get another round.  Yesterday and this morning felt like Spring and it was 57* at 9:30 last night.  50's today, tomorrow snow, Thursday 50's, Friday-Sunday 30's and 40's.  At least we do get a respite between storms so we don't have a jillion feet of snow while the mountains are getting good snow for skiing.

Originally posted by Techdiver my new ride. Picked up last year. and my old dog that Yanti was talking about. She has been gone almost 2 years and there is still an empty spot in my heart that isn't filled.

Sweet bike and beautiful dog.  I can see why there's still a hole in your heart.  Animals have a way of doing that.

That's exactly right and why I feel this constant struggle to reel myself back in.  As I get fitter, my easy pace seems to get faster.  Like you say, there is a point where you cross a line to where you are actually compromising the rest of your program.  I am trying to find that line.  I tell myself I'm going to run a certain pace but my body wants to go a bit faster.  Most of my pure runner friends seem to push beyond this whole concept and turn every run into a race.  I quit running with them when I realized this was not in my best interest.  I see the benefit of pushing the swim and to some extent the bike but not with running. 

Maybe that's part of the problem.  The training mentality is so different between the three parts and it takes a lot of discipline to change mental gears.  What a crazy sport. 

Are you able to hit the paces for your quality workouts? How about races?

A warm pool in cold weather IS enjoyable!  Yup, taking it slow and gradually building a base is a very smart plan.  Injury will only set you back and make you miserable.  Stay consistent and enjoy the results which will come.

My problem is that my VDOT varies so much.  For a 5k, I'm about 47 and HM about 42.  I've always been faster the shorter the race relative to my age group.  This makes it hard to really establish what my training paces should be, especially my easy pace.  I tend to set my training paces at the higher VDOT especially for quality workouts since my tendency is better performance the shorter the distance.   I think it is partially why my easy pace tends to also gravitiate that way and why I am concerned.   

I do hit my VDOT paces for quality workouts though the only quality I've done in a few months is a weekly 3 mile tempo run that also has to be altered for the fact I do it in the dark on sidewalks and curbs, traffic, etc.  When I was doing weekly track sessions of R pace stuff I was pretty comfortable with my 5k VDOT.  For races, I do hit my VDOT if I alter it to the distance.

I couldn't sleep tonight (I'm only sleeping in 3-4hr at most snatches anyway, due to kitty needs) because I kinda flipped out over Smoky ... he meowed insistently right on schedule (this cat have a built-in Timex or what?!) for his 11pm feed but then was listless and didn't want to drink-eat anything. He just wanted to curl up in the crook of my arm. He's just so alarmingly thin, I worry about him.

He's not dehydrated and he's got good color back in his mucous membranes after being rather pale (probably anemia from all the mites and fleas).

He's sleeping very soundly (he does that) but I keep checking to make sure he's breathing!

I don't flip out about much unless it involves harm to Mutti (my mom), bring on the natural and human disasters, etc. but this tinytiny creature has made my feet come out right from under me and put my heart in my throat!

I saw that Spanky requested to join the Super Secret Order of the Manatee on Strava.  Then I noticed our, umm, saying.  "Fachmie, it's Whopper time!"  Perhaps we should explain?

Chris B, don't we have a document about that?

Yanti, since you aren't sleeping anyway, would you care to tackle that one?

I'm glad that Smoky doing OK.  {{hugs}}

Manatee glossary -  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_xyfZBSmx9ZNI7YRi8dKjOoP604WTVEjvsd0dXS_4hs/edit?usp=sharing

Sounds like he's getting exactly what he needs right now:  your loving care and attention.  What a huge gift you're giving him, the sweet little bitty thing.  He certainly found the right person!! 

To give you my "woo-woo" $0.02, I think he's trying to reassure you and tell you not to worry.  He appreciates everything you're doing for him and wants you to trust that he'll do what he needs to do.  (((Hugs)))