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2012-01-24 2:55 PM
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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter
I have seen the argument many times over at slowtwitch... W/kg do matter on the flats because if you weigh more, you punch a bigger hole through the air.


2012-01-24 3:01 PM
in reply to: #4008578

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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter
YeaJackson - 2012-01-24 9:29 AM

W/Kg only matters for climbing.  On a flat time trial, your power output and aerodynamic profile is what counts.  Weight is of little consequence.

So what's the takeaway here? Concentrate on raw power and your aero profile? W/Kg may only matter for climbing, but its not some sort of detriment riding a flat time trial AFAIK. Will you go slower on the flats if you are lighter, power being equal?

No...you will not go slower.

Shane mentioned the obvious takeaways.  But the key takeaway for flat time trials is that you should not sacrifice raw power in order to achieve a better W/Kg ratio.

If you're currently at 225 pounds and 250 watts...that's a W/Kg of 2.44.  If you decided that W/Kg was the most important measure of bike fitness (for a flat TT) then you could simply lose 75 pounds by running and letting your bike fitness and FTP to drop to 175.  That would result in a new W/Kg of 2.56.  That's higher than 2.44...but I would bet anything you'll be much slower than when you were pushing 250 watts @ 225 pounds in a flat TT.  You would likely become a more efficient climber though.

 

 

2012-01-24 3:03 PM
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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter

gsmacleod - 2012-01-24 3:46 PM
YeaJackson - 2012-01-24 4:29 PM So what's the takeaway here? Concentrate on raw power and your aero profile? W/Kg may only matter for climbing, but its not some sort of detriment riding a flat time trial AFAIK. Will you go slower on the flats if you are lighter, power being equal?
The takeaways are: 1) Work to make your FTP as high as possible 2) Be as light as possible 3) Be as slippery as possible To more fully answer your question, 1 can be at odds with 2 and 2 is related to 3 in many cases. The bigger the athlete, typically the higher they can push their FTP but their W/kg is often eclipsed by lighter athletes with lower absolute FTPs. OTOH, while a bigger athlete will typically have a bigger CdA, it does not scale linearly with weight so often bigger athletes can have an advantage in a TT. Further good positioning and equipment selection can dramatically low CdA so the athlete can often attain a very aero position despite being bigger. If you think of the TdF, the climbers have the biggest W/kg while the TTers have the highest W/CdA. Shane

So should I stick to hilly courses? I know when we do group rides I'm usually one of the first to the top, but on the flats I'm average. My first test was Dec. 15 and gave me a FTP of 176. But I weigh 138 so the w/kg is 2.82. Not good but hey I just started and I'm diligently training. Testing again this weekend. I've been playing with this calculator and it does take into account height and weight.

What's also interesting is I've looked at power data after long rides outdoors and the numbers are always higher than indoors.



Edited by BrianRunsPhilly 2012-01-24 3:04 PM
2012-01-24 3:11 PM
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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter
What about normalized power? Is it much higher?


Edited by beebs 2012-01-24 3:12 PM
2012-01-24 3:17 PM
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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter
YeaJackson - 2012-01-24 4:23 PM

If your all-out effort for 3 mins is different if you do it alone vs coupled w/ a 20min all-out effort, then I agree with you. If its not significantly different, then there's not much value in spreading it out. I don't think I've ever seen a formal testing protocol for CP that states that testing values must be done in a separate session.


The issue isn't that the 3 minute test would be skewed but that the 20 minute test would be. The short test is to estimate the anaerobic work capacity so it can be accounted for in the long test when calculating CP.

For triathletes this may not be as big an issue as for a cyclist as we tend to have very flat power curves but ideally the tests should both be done fresh.

Shane
2012-01-24 3:21 PM
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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter

beebs - 2012-01-24 3:55 PM I have seen the argument many times over at slowtwitch... W/kg do matter on the flats because if you weigh more, you punch a bigger hole through the air.

 

you are confusing cda and w/kg...



2012-01-24 3:25 PM
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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter

Watts/ kg and watts /cda are just numbers. Neither one is better than the other.

The only difference is watts/cda is better at predicting TT capabilities.

As Shane said....push on the pedals hard, be as light as you can be and be as aero as possible.

2012-01-24 3:27 PM
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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter
beebs - 2012-01-24 5:11 PM

What about normalized power? Is it much higher?


Depends on the variability of the effort. Ideally in a test, TT or tri, AP and NP should be very similar. In a bike race, not so much.

Shane
2012-01-24 3:32 PM
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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter

so does it still make sense to do this exactly how my coach has it planned? (i.e. no 5 minute TT effort prior to the 20 min effort??)

I mean, it's him that i'm paying.

2012-01-24 3:44 PM
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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter
Dlyon - 2012-01-24 5:32 PM

so does it still make sense to do this exactly how my coach has it planned? (i.e. no 5 minute TT effort prior to the 20 min effort??)

I mean, it's him that i'm paying.



IMO yes. I would not be happy with an athlete who changed a test based on a forum. I would encourage you to discuss this with your coach to help gain a better understanding of training with power.

Shane
2012-01-24 3:47 PM
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2012-01-24 3:52 PM
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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter
Agreed.  I wasnt planning to deviate from his protocol.  I am sure there are several methods to the madness....i'll be back later with some results now that I have added this big bullseye to my back. Sincere thanks to everyone for the input...

Edited by Dlyon 2012-01-24 3:57 PM
2012-01-24 3:54 PM
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2012-01-24 4:11 PM
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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter

Fred D - 2012-01-24 1:47 PM ....we are not trying to undermine your coach.

Speak for yourself

2012-01-24 5:24 PM
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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter
Leegoocrap - 2012-01-24 4:21 PM

beebs - 2012-01-24 3:55 PM I have seen the argument many times over at slowtwitch... W/kg do matter on the flats because if you weigh more, you punch a bigger hole through the air.

 

you are confusing cda and w/kg...

I mean that if you had a 150lb rider with an ftp of 250watts and a 250lb rider of 250watts and aero positions are both the same, the 150lb rider will likely have a lower cd and will go faster simply because he is smaller and won't catch as much wind.

2012-01-24 5:27 PM
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2012-01-24 6:11 PM
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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter
I agree; you could say the same for a lot of bike metrics. Point is that you can gain speed if you lose extra lbs that are just flapping in the wind and aren't contributing to your ftp.
2012-01-24 6:14 PM
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2012-01-24 6:20 PM
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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter

beebs - 2012-01-24 4:11 PM Point is that you can gain speed if you lose extra lbs that are just flapping in the wind and aren't contributing to your ftp.

Yes, but by that example, the reason you are going faster is that your cda is lower....not because of the lower weight and higher w/kg.

 

2012-01-24 6:32 PM
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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter
Then I'm going on a diet to lose cda.Smile
2012-01-24 6:32 PM
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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter


2012-01-24 6:34 PM
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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter
beebs - 2012-01-24 8:11 PM

I agree; you could say the same for a lot of bike metrics. Point is that you can gain speed if you lose extra lbs that are just flapping in the wind and aren't contributing to your ftp.


You are correct but there are limits - in a tri/TT absolute power and CdA rule the day (even if you are heavier than your competition) and when climbing, then power:weight rules the day.

Shane



Edited by gsmacleod 2012-01-24 6:36 PM
2012-01-24 6:36 PM
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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter


Edited by axteraa 2012-01-24 6:37 PM
2012-01-24 6:36 PM
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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter

beebs - 2012-01-24 7:32 PM Then I'm going on a diet to lose cda.Smile

Send your food my way, apparently I need to get larger

2012-01-24 7:26 PM
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Subject: RE: 20 minute Time Trial with Power Meter
BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-01-24 4:03 PM

So should I stick to hilly courses? I know when we do group rides I'm usually one of the first to the top, but on the flats I'm average. My first test was Dec. 15 and gave me a FTP of 176. But I weigh 138 so the w/kg is 2.82.

Yes. With your profile you should seek out the tris with the hilliest, nastiest technical bike legs that you can find. The flatter courses give the big guys an advantage.

How about the Alpe d'Huez Triathlon, for example? 

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