Educate me, Re: Transgender child in CO (Page 5)

From the "I can't believe that happened in Mississippi" department, there was a transgender student who notified school officials that she, despite having a penis, would be coming to school dressed according to the girl's dress code.  In a moment of shocking (unfortunate that it is shocking) tolerance, the principal said that's fine.  Unfortunately, and not surprising, is that some students came to school in gym shorts and t-shirts, which is an apparent violation of the dress code, to protest that their rights were violated because she (who they call he) got to break the dress code.  The principal, and school board are standing by their decision to let her adhere to the girl's dress code.

No word on which bathroom she will be going into so that she may privately enter a stall and excrete urine from her penis.  I'm sure it's going to freak some people out, though.  The organ in which waste is removed from the body totally freaks people out because it's well known that people go into restrooms to whip out their genitalia to show others.

I understand your sentiment, and there is a certain reality to it... but we are not mob rule, we are a democratic republic, and individual rights are not trumped by the group. I do apply my stand universally, and the individual wins in my mind. I do not know how we legislate that, or what it will take for change... but we are either all free, or we are not. This issue is complicated, but we must always strive to protect individual rights.

While schools do indeed have more important things to do... BOTH side have decided the public school system is where they will wage their cultural war. Most American's seem OK with that. I do not see that changing anytime soon.

i agree. 

sorry, i didn't intend to imply that individual rights should be overrided by the group.  i just think that there are so many rights that are being fought for all the time that at some point we have to understand/accept that we'll never win them all.  not inderstanding that realization is counterproductive. i'm probably too much of a realist in this regard, to a fault.

I didn't take it that way... just talking. I agree with you. I'm a fan of realism.

What I do not agree with is making special rights... I never liked "hate" crimes... beating people up was already illegal. Fine if you want to attach a "aggravated"... but getting beat up is just getting beat up. So I do not like making "special cases" so we can all be equal... just apply the law equally to all people... that is how we become equal. And if that means we have to change how restrooms are used... then fine... change how restrooms are used.

What would that law look like.  Is it as pithy as saying, "one shall not discriminate against another based on their gender regardless of their sex"  Or do I miss it.  Is sex still male and female and gender also male and female and that is why I am confused.  Is it right to say that this girl is a girl in gender but a boy in sex?  But the thing on the passport is that not sex?  Is one born with a sex and chooses or identifies with a gender or somewhere along the gender spectrum.  I am trying to think of a law that somehow outlaws the unacceptable discrimination that you are seeing. 

I don't care who comes into my bathroom as long as they are respectful.  I would like to live in a world where I could walk into a ladies room and not fear reprisal so long as I am respectful.  Or maybe I wouldn't want to live in that world, because differences are good right.  Perhaps the pithy sentence above would be adequate if we lived in a world with enlightened attitudes.

Anyways, this has rambled, my real question is what would the law say.

preach it brother.

Reading articles about Coy, I saw the mention of some states (Massachusetts specifically) had Transgender rights laws on their books. Here is a link to the Massachusetts Department of Education's guidelines for schools to adhere to the law. 

I thought it was thoughtfully written and did a good job at what it was intending to do. For the most part, it seems like it would work fine as long as common sense is applied. Some things like how to adjust school records, etc. seem pretty straight forward. The fireworks will come from access to bathrooms/locker rooms and participation in activities/sports. 

When it comes down to it, a person uses the bathroom to pee or poo and then leaves. I don't care who I pee or poo next to. I also don't care why the person I'm peeing or pooing next to is peeing or pooing next to me. Is it because the person is a woman with a vagina? Is it because the person is a woman with a penis? Is it because the person is a woman who used to have a penis and now has a vagina? Why does it matter? Won't the stall door be closed? Will I ever even have an opportunity to know anything about the genitals of the person pooing next to me? Do I even want to know?

As long as they don't stink the place up too badly, I don't care what they pee out of, and I'm fairly certain I know what they poo out of, but I don't really care about that, either.

I have no desire to inspect either orifice. And in all my years of peeing and pooing I've neither been asked to inspect an orifice, nor invited anyone to inspect mine.

I don't see how it matters. That's all. Coy, for all intents and purposes is a girl that, through no fault of her own, developed with boy anatomy. This creates a whole bunch of issues for Coy, who will likely struggle for the better part of her life to reconcile her brain and her body. She will take hormones, have operations... it's a big deal for her. It should not be a big deal for the rest of us to let her pee and poo where she feels most comfortable.

Thank you for saying much more eloquently what I wanted to say. 

Well... I don't know that the terms poo and pee are really "eloquent" but they do get the point across! 

Personally, I think doo doo is the preferred term, but I knew what she meant.

... oh, and I thought girls tinkled?

We also don't sweat... we glow! 

powerman - 2013-03-01 6:13 PM My wife certainly does

Lol!  I freakin' "glow" all over the place... particularly during difficult spin classes. 

I just saw one of those pics on FB that says "I don't sweat, I'm covered in liquid awesome" 

ANNNNND, it still seems no one is really discussing this issue as how it is seen by a CHILD and other CHILDREN who will grow into ADOLESCENTS/TEENS. You may not care who is in the bathroom with you as a 30 or 40 or 50 something adult, but the teasing and bullying and picture-taking and texting (all against the rules, of course) that go on in a school bathroom/locker room is something I'm guessing most of you adults don't deal with anymore. Preteens and teens most certainly do care who goes into a bathroom with them. I've been the teacher who had to ask why a student couldn't/wouldn't use the bathroom during passing time (because they were scared of the girls who were in there). Think just telling schools it's the law that they have to let kids go where they feel they best associate will fix the problem?

For me I don't care who I go to the washroom with but I guess I certainly care who my kids go to the washroom with. In that regard, I likely would feel more comfortable with my daughter going to the washroom with a transgendered girl, on average, than most people, on average.  I know that I will be able to educate my daughter as to why it matters not one single flying frog who is in the bathroom with you as long as they be cool while they are in there.  My greater concern is for the kids of parents who cannot educate their kids, or for that matter kids, perhaps my daughter included, that forget the educating for a second.  So how do you stop that.  What type of police state in the washroom has to exist for the values that should be instilled to be instilled.

Hey!  Someone finally went back to my original question! :D  Again, I still just don't understand how at this young an age association with gender is anything OTHER than what they have been raised.  I believe the article on this particular child said he/she was a triplet with two sisters?  How do you know that the child doesn't just think he/she shoudl be a girl like his/her siblings?  Anyway...it's really no matter...I guess it's one of those things you would understand if you'd experienced it yourself but is hard to understand if you don't experience it yourself.  

How recent has it been that it's been...shoot, acceptable isn't the word I'm looking for here.....but...acknowleged maybe?  How long as it been acknowledged/accepted/whatever that you might identify with a gender that doesn't match your "parts"?  I have to admit that other than some pop culture TV and this article I hadn't ever "heard" this...contrast that with how acceptable being LGB now is...compared to how "Unacceptable" it was less than 100 years ago...I mean, 25-50 years ago what did transgender folks do?????

I definitely don't care who uses the bathroom with me...but I definitely see the "concern" of abuse in a locker room.  And that's absolutely no fault of actual transgender individuals...that's a product of entitled/dishonest normal Americans.  I have to admit that a few times in the last month or so there has been a VERY masculine looking person using the women's locker room at my AF base...and while I am 99% sure that it's actually a girl she always makes me do a double take.  And I can't help but consider the possibility that it's a dude "sneaking in".  Truth be told, I don't think any transgender person would ever do that.  But I really do think there is that non-transgender person out there that would!  Somewhat sad...the dishonest people ruin everything for the honest people!  If the transgender person who identifies as female but has male parts was in the locker room I don't think I would really mind...HOWEVER, if I saw a person with male parts in the locker room and I didn't KNOW they were transgender I'm sure I would freak out and report them.  And I think THAT is the unfortunate aspect....even if you are a "regular" there is no way to inform EVERYONE of your status unless you happen to have the requisite parts for the locker room you're in...it's easier to "blend in" in a restroom with stalls...but in a locker room it's really impossible unless you are SUPER adept at the towel dance.  I guess what i'm saying is that I think fewer people would "have a problem with it" if they knew the situation vs. happening to see what APPEARS to be a male in a women's rest room.

I realize gay and transgender are different, but I do not believe either is a choice or a result of parenting/environment. It was always obvious my cousin was gay. We knew this when he was very young (preschool age). Most of his friends were girls and he strongly prefered "girly" activities and things. I remember when he was maybe 9 or 10 yrs old, he would put on my make-up, earrings, and clothing and go to the mall and see if he could "fool" people. He now identifies as a gay male who like to dress as a drag queen when he goes out to clubs.

I really worry A LOT more Coy's comfort and safety in BOTH restrooms than I worry about how the other kids will feel about it. It is so sad that kids who are "different" (for whatever reason) are most likely to be targeted for harassment and abuse.

Sexual orientation and gender identity are not black and white issues, both exist along a spectrum that is internal to each individual. However, when it comes to the external world that spectrum collapses into an observationa dichotomy; you are male or female. Yes there is more to the story but in the vast majority of cases this is the case. There are only 2 objective ways to determine gender: your genetalia and your genetic makeup and currently only one of those is unalterable. {If you carry a Y chromosome you are defined as male, regardless of the number of X chromosomes you have. If you do not carry a Y chromosome you are defined as female, the default gender for humans. You can be born and live with a single X chromosome, you cannot be born and live with only a Y. Both genders can be born and survive with more than the normal number of X chromosomes e.g. XXX (female) or XXY (male).} How you "feel" is not a measureable or definitively observable quality; it is a subjective quality. The psychologists on the board may disagree with me but I cannot put how you "feel" (your gender identity)under a microscope and measure it's size, shape etc. This means for the vast majority of people must make an assessment of gender based on genetalia or as is most often the case secondary behavioral characteristics and past presentations. If you come into the ladies locker room after presenting yourself as male and sporting a penis why would you expect everyone to just assume you "feel" like a girl or take the significant amount of time required to "get to know you" before making an assessment and telling you to leave or stay? I will grant that a bathroom is much less problematic in that, at least in the ladies room, you are in your stall and they are in theirs and nary the twain shall meet unless something catastrophic happens. However, if you start setting a transgendered child up to believe they should have unfettered access to areas reserved for the opposite gender you are setting them up for much larger confrontations in the future. Is it not better to deal with the reality now? The reality is, by objective measure, Coy presents as male. That may be alterable in the future but it is not now.

Well... the same holds true...just because "someone" agrees with, does not make you right... and at least for amending the Constitution, 16 states does not get it done. I'm not arguing merit... just the facts.

What ever rule the school makes, does not change the fact that Coy has male genitalia, and therefore will continue to be thought of as a boy by many. And it also does not change the fact that because Coy identifies as a female... he is "different" from every other kid in school. Regardless of what the difference, being different in school is going to be a very long road. Which ever restroom Coy uses is not going to change that.

It is likely that those same states have laws against gender discrimination yet I would be willing to bet 99+% of courthouses in those states have either gender segregated or single occupancy bathroom facilities. So it seems a certain amount of gender segregation is more than acceptable under the law. Note also I deliberately made a distinction between gender and gender identity. One can be objectively measiured phenotypically or genotypically (though phenotype can be altered medically). The other cannot. We as human beings are hard wired to make rapid decisions based on pattern recognition. So unless you want to get rid of gender segregation altogether I do not see how you are going to deal with the fact that a person with a penis will be seen as male in a gender segregation scenario. You could possibly have them wear a scarlet T so they are identifiable in say a lockerroom but I personally think that would be a horribly bad idea.

So just to update, because it is front page here... Coy won her case.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_23523502/colorado-transgender-coy-mathis-wins-civil-rights-case