Nov 15-Dec 15 "Swim Speed Secrets" Book Club (Page 6)

Technique is definitely very important for swimming, but so is the fitness part. They build on each other, layer after layer, pushing up overall swimming ability. The ideas of swim fitness & technique should be built in tandem, not in isolation. If  one only focuses heavily on technique (ie. lots of drilling, taking big breaks, going easy to "keep form") then it's less likely they will develop the ability to maintain that better form. There can still be some breakthrough periods, but continued improvement is less likely. To get faster the fitness part also needs to develop, and the stroke may also change as one becomes faster. Timing of the motions can feel a bit different. Speed itself can be a rather good teacher of technique.

Dale, in your case the shoulder injury may limit how much you can push it. I don't know the extent (and probably wouldn't know what to do if you explained it), but do what you can towards building more fitness as well. An earlier post about wanting complete rest between 100's for technique focus is still stuck in my head.

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by msteiner

Originally posted by switch

Those pics!

I've stared and stared at those pics before, but it never feels like my catch goes like that.  

Lol.   Me too!

So today I did 25 repeat 100s with

Things that seem to be helping:

Thinking about keeping an open armpit for as long as possible and thinking about what the arrows would look like coming off my arm in the catch (dorky!)

Saying, Rainman style, "over the barrel", every single catch                                                                                                                                                                                 

Finding the balance that creates the right amount of tone--not tension.  Still really working on this.  I can only have it right (or what I think is right) for about 25yds at a time.

Does anybody  have any good tips for thinking about the right amount of tone? Right now, when I get "over the barrel" I feel myself kind of tense up to connect the core/hip drive, but then relax a bit.  However, I read somewhere that "good" swimmers are constantly moving from one hip rotation to the next, and if that is true, I shouldn't be relaxing as much as I am between catches.  Thoughts?

 

Bah 25 100s does not sound fun.  I was taught the analogy of "reaching behind an older TV", which does create that bend on the pull sensation.  Like you though I have to mentally think about it. 

All I know about the second question is that my former Masters' coach always said that your core should be one of the things you feel the most when swimming.  If I focus on rotating, then I kind of feel that, but I'm sure it's not quite as much as what he described.  

I swam this morning, and my watch thought my last 25 was butterfly again:
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/406639216

I wish I could swim that fast without feeling like I'm literally throwing my body from wall to wall.

Hi Erin!

What did you do in determining CSS? Also curious where you established your IMLP pace at for training?

Cool, Dale.  I'm very curious to see if this helps you.  Did you get the workouts?

Welcome Nicole :)

You really have made some awesome progress with your master's group! 

Re the R/L side thing--do  you breathe bilaterally or every 2?  Does that correlate in anyway to your (relative) L side weakness?

That's some solid swimming Matt :)

Do you go in with a specific workout in mind?  How is your swimming structured right now? I think I remember you're doing 2x/week at the moment, is that right?

I definitely am not feeling my core like that.  It is not in the same ballpark as my shoulders/lats.  My guess is that I'm losing quite a bit of poser there.

Yeah i'm swimming 2x a week right now, with both workouts being in the low 3k range.  

My Monday workout is always the same:
600 yds warmup
10 x 200 steady w/ about 15-20s rest (this Monday I was coming in about 2:50, so I guess I was going on the 3:05-3:10)
400 yds cooldown

It's not a sexy set, but it works on strong steady swimming, which is what we need on race day.

The set I did today had a lot of speed and pulling.  Usually I get a Mid Distance or Sprint workout from this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Workouts-Binder-Swimmers-Triathletes-Coaches/dp/1931382743/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1384961144&sr=8-2&keywords=swim+workouts+for+triathletes

So right now it's steady swimming on Monday and strength or speed on Wed.

I was very interested to read on the Swim Smooth website that the way to improve your LT in swimming way by swimming at or just a bit below your LT. I have to keep reminding myself that faster here is not going to be better.  It's that whole taxing the right system thing again :) 

I am not very good at feeling my pace in the water yet. I don't know if that's because it's moving (hopefully improving) right now, or what, but I'm going to work on being better at feeling and hitting paces this next week.

I haven't done a CSS test yet.  Maybe I can do that on Friday as a quick test.  Entering guess into swim smooth I had a CSS of 1:32.  My 200's I averaged between 1:23-26/100.
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/406151894

I'll put checking my CSS on my 'to do' list.

Looks like a decent example to see about a few things. Would really recommend a bigger warm-up, like 2-3 times that. Is the drill section just drill-drill-drill, or incorporated into drill/swims? Like 4 x 50 d/s, meaning drill down, swim back. Or 4 x 75 k/d/s (kick/drill/swim)? Or alternating 25's or 50's with short rest between?

Then for the two main sets, what do they look like? Yes, the first 1k is composed of 100s or 200's, but what kind of send-off and expected "In" times? I'm also seeing the second set as dividing things up too much or trying to do too much in one session. If you don't have a race coming up soon it might be better to do that as an interval set on a tight send-off. "tight send-off" doesn't necessarily mean it has to be blazing hard on the pace, just that you expect little rest between.

I would just as soon combine the 2 main sets into one bigger one. Could be lots of 100's & 200's or some type of breakdown/intermixing of things. We've done 3 x 8 x 100. Going maybe swim, pull, swim through the larger rounds. Possibly descending by 4. Or like yesterday was 6 x (250 pull/swim (option) moderate, 3 x 50 desc). Incorporating smaller, faster intervals around larger more moderately paced ones. 4 of those may be more appropriate for you. Many other combinations of things. A number of my best sets (or some breakthroughs) have come when there are fast 25's in the early parts (possibly later too). Fast ones like this have been a great way to figure out how to both slip through and grab hold better.

Originally posted by ligersandtions

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by ligersandtions Been MIA for a few days, but I wanted to introduce myself as well. I'm Nicole and have little swim background. I did swimming lessons as a kid, but I always got swimmer's ear and as soon as I'd progressed far enough that my parents were content, I stopped....heh. For about five years, I was big into scuba diving and I took an advanced class that required us to be able to do 400m in someting like 12 minutes, so I got back in the water and quickly realized that it wasn't at all natural to me. After a few sessions, I was able to swim the 400m, and promptly stopped once again! Picked up the tri thing in 2012 and started swimming. I was probably in the 2:1X/100y range when I started and worked my way down to 2:0X/100y before I found a master's group and joined. I've now been swimming with my master's group for just over a year and have made some good progress. I did a 500m TT a couple weeks ago in 7:27 and was very pleased with it. Currently swimming 3x a week at about 10k/week. I'm through Chapter 5 of the book and have found it pretty interesting so far. I'd love to get some underwater video of my stroke....I think my right side is better than my left side. I feel like I do something slightly off on the left side that results in my left elbow "slipping" through the water a few inches before the catch part of the stroke actually starts. I'm hoping there will be an "ah-ha" moment reading the book shortly

Welcome Nicole

You really have made some awesome progress with your master's group! 

Re the R/L side thing--do  you breathe bilaterally or every 2?  Does that correlate in anyway to your (relative) L side weakness?

I can bilateral breathe, but I typically choose not to. There's a possibility that my choosing to breathe to one side (the left side) has resulted in this weird/bad habit I've gotten into. I do know that when I breathe to the other side, I still do it, so it's more that it's a habit/flaw in my left side, rather than related directly to which side I breathe to. Good news is that when I do breathe to my right, I don't do it there! We did an 800m continuous swim today -- came in at 12:26, so 1:33/100m (which, as it turns out, is my calculated CSS). I'd like to get that down to 12:00 over the next few months, but to be honest, I don't really enjoy doing such a long, continuous swim in practice. I feel like it allows people to get sloppy, whereas 8x100 with a few seconds to regroup between each 100 results in better form throughout.

Nice going on that! Your speed seems a bit hidden as you're on scm instead of scy as many other are. Time difference is roughly 10% between the two, which is a lot!

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by ligersandtions

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by ligersandtions Been MIA for a few days, but I wanted to introduce myself as well. I'm Nicole and have little swim background. I did swimming lessons as a kid, but I always got swimmer's ear and as soon as I'd progressed far enough that my parents were content, I stopped....heh. For about five years, I was big into scuba diving and I took an advanced class that required us to be able to do 400m in someting like 12 minutes, so I got back in the water and quickly realized that it wasn't at all natural to me. After a few sessions, I was able to swim the 400m, and promptly stopped once again! Picked up the tri thing in 2012 and started swimming. I was probably in the 2:1X/100y range when I started and worked my way down to 2:0X/100y before I found a master's group and joined. I've now been swimming with my master's group for just over a year and have made some good progress. I did a 500m TT a couple weeks ago in 7:27 and was very pleased with it. Currently swimming 3x a week at about 10k/week. I'm through Chapter 5 of the book and have found it pretty interesting so far. I'd love to get some underwater video of my stroke....I think my right side is better than my left side. I feel like I do something slightly off on the left side that results in my left elbow "slipping" through the water a few inches before the catch part of the stroke actually starts. I'm hoping there will be an "ah-ha" moment reading the book shortly

Welcome Nicole

You really have made some awesome progress with your master's group! 

Re the R/L side thing--do  you breathe bilaterally or every 2?  Does that correlate in anyway to your (relative) L side weakness?

I can bilateral breathe, but I typically choose not to. There's a possibility that my choosing to breathe to one side (the left side) has resulted in this weird/bad habit I've gotten into. I do know that when I breathe to the other side, I still do it, so it's more that it's a habit/flaw in my left side, rather than related directly to which side I breathe to. Good news is that when I do breathe to my right, I don't do it there! We did an 800m continuous swim today -- came in at 12:26, so 1:33/100m (which, as it turns out, is my calculated CSS). I'd like to get that down to 12:00 over the next few months, but to be honest, I don't really enjoy doing such a long, continuous swim in practice. I feel like it allows people to get sloppy, whereas 8x100 with a few seconds to regroup between each 100 results in better form throughout.

Nice going on that! Your speed seems a bit hidden as you're on scm instead of scy as many other are. Time difference is roughly 10% between the two, which is a lot!

Yeah, that's exactly what I though when I saw those times--holy crap, that's METERS!  Nice job Nicole

I swim in a SCM pool and it takes some doing to keep the mental math going and remembering that 10% difference.  When I switched last summer I was freaked out by how slow I was appearing.

x2 on nice job, Nicole!

Well, I made my first foray pack to the pool today (first time since early September) and just did a bunch of drills as indicated in the book.  And, I attempted to learn how to flip turn. 

I have a feeling I'm going to be pretty sore tomorrow from both the layoff and the form work.  And those press-outs are a bugger!!!

It took me a few tries to push hard enough on the TTs to have it reflect my CSS.  I knew I hadn't pushed hard enough on my first two attempts at CSS because I did a 1500yd TT and my  pace per 100 was 3 sec lower than my CSS--doh! 

If you feel like your CSS is too low, maybe you should consider trying the test again?

My understanding is that for around 2:00/100m, your CSS would be roughly equivalent to your pace per 100m if swimming 1000m. If you're swimming 1:30/100m it would be roughly equivalent to your pace per 1500m.  Even though it is an LT speed, it is not a speed you could maintain for an hour (like running), which I didn't know/understand at first.

Yeah, Mike! 

I found a great video when looking for some good slow mo and instruction for my kids on flip turns.  Check this out--http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlhGqEy8MBc turn instruction starts at 4:40 :)

Lindsay Benko--drillin it!

I received the swim workouts in the mail today. These are going to be GREAT. The booklet that comes with it is a great review of the book itself with the addition of how to actually DO the skills and the workouts.

Just breezing through the cards makes me want to run to the pool RIGHT NOW!! It is frustrating reading all of this and not being able to go try things out myself.

Patience, Grasshopper! (those who are old enough remember this).

Next week, or maybe this weekend if things are healing properly, I am going to try some of the tubing exercises.

I can only imagine how much you want to get going.

 The tubing sounds like it can be quite a workout.  It may even end up being kinda good to work on strength and then get into the pool with a really solid idea of the muscles you're supposed to be feeling.