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2009-11-12 7:13 AM
in reply to: #2492759

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
with all due respect but isnt it too early to really spend some much time the "test/test conditions" subject?
it is only the second week. if you improved or did not improved from the first test in the big scheme of things means nothing. i think it's a bit too early to get overly exicited about the numbers, wait few weeks deep into the training and then try to interpret the data.


2009-11-12 8:07 AM
in reply to: #2492759

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Okay, I need a little help here.  I'm getting frustrated already. I'm comfortable spining with a cadence in the mid to upper 70s range.  I know, I know.  My goal for the winter is to be comfortable in the mid to upper 80s. I'm trying very hard to follow this plan, but if I increase my cadence, my heart rate goes right up with it.  If I drop to an easier gear, I end up getting my cadence in a better range - mid to upper 80s, but I'm spinning wildly in a gear with no speeed what-so-ever and my heart rate still isn't down to the level its supposed to be.  My warm up was supposed to be in the 109-116 range and my avg was 123 and it just got worse from there.

Suggestions please?
2009-11-12 8:13 AM
in reply to: #2492759

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread

owl girl - optimal cadence is self-selected and a funtrion of power, gearing, torque, terrain, etc. That is for a given terrain, a given power and the gearing on your bike you'll find the best cadence to suit your needs. On the trainer you don't have to deal with terrain but still choose whatever gearing (torque + cadence) that allows you to do your sets.

Artemis - does zones look about right. remember training with HRM when doing short intense intervals can be challenging hence also make sure to use RPE.

cymanski - HRM is an invidual number, what's your LTHR it is only relevant for you, higher or lower numbers are usual because we all are different but having a higher # doesn't mean much.

rreischl - mmm around 6-7 months out of the race, that way you can have 12 weeks of general training (cycling plan) and 12+ weeks of specific training (long steady sessions)

StMaas - use 152 bpm to determine your zones

trotpn - consider using a roller foam or trigger point therapy to massage your ITB as well as doing hamstrigs stretch with an elastic band. This + a good bike fit and adequate run load has helped me get rid of ITB issues...

PennState - definitely doing a 60 min test should be the standard to determine your true 60MP (or FTP). That said as you get more experienced training with power and using the CP model or other way to estimate your FTP you'll know aprox what could you do during a 60 min test without doing one. Still, once the weather changes up here (around March/April) I do try to get outside and do a 40kTT to get my 60MP and then try to do so again at least 1 month before a big race to know exactly what my 60MP is.

tnickerson - my suggestion? stop worrying about cadence too much. Focus on what effort you should sustain for the session and just do it. As I said before, if the interval is short and hard your HRM wont catch up on time (lags behind) so you have to gauge your effort by RPE. once we start doing longer sets your HRM will have more time to catch up with the effort your working muscles are producing and it will serve you better to gauge your effort. But ultimately the cadence you use to achieve that it is what it is.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

FOR EVERYONE USING HRM - If you did your 30 min test and you struggled through the test but got your aprox LTHR use that number. It is possible other factors affected how hard you could have pushed during the test but for know it will be 'good enough' and it will be a better way to set guide your training based on your current fitness level. Next round of testing you'll have another chance to figire out if you indeed can push a bit harder.

FOR EVERYONE USING POWER - same as with those training with HRM, if you are new to dosing this kind of tests it is normal to struggle nailing the test as it takes a bt of experience to pace yourself and know how hard you can push all out for 20/5 min. Still, whatever results you got, use those to estimate your critical power for 60 min (aka 60MP) and adjust in coming weeks. If the intervals feel right then you are close your 60MP, if it feels to easy then go try a bit higher and probably means your 60MP is indeed a bit higher.

2009-11-12 8:16 AM
in reply to: #2492759

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
the bear and others - it is ok to test outside as long as you have an area in which you can complete the distance without stoping and you are using the same way to measure watts (i.e. using your PT all the time). Other factors might affect the test a bit but since we ultimately care about max power output and not speed then testing can be done indoors/outdoors.

What can be a problem is when athletes use a computrainer (or other) to test and measure power indoors and then another power too (i.e. powertap or other) outside. Since power tools measurements can vary between models it can throw #s off for sure so that could give you bad data however if you use the same unit to test all the time you'll be fine. i.e. I ride the computrainer indoors but usually use the power tap to measure my watts since it is what I use outside so my data is consistent all the time.

I personally like to test outside because I tend to generate more power due to the limitation os trainers, however since the winter up here can be a b!tch it is hard for me to do constant tests through Dec, Jan, Feb, etc. so I test indoors on those months and start testing outside aroun March/April.

BTW, as soon as you do your 5 min max test we'll use those #s to estimate what your 60 min power is, that is based on your current fitness and using Monod's critical power model how much power you should be able to generate during a 60 min all out effort which eqautes to your maximum lactate steady state (referred as threshold)
2009-11-12 8:22 AM
in reply to: #2508010

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
PennState - 2009-11-10 8:59 PM  From my understanding you will be able to generate more power on your test outside than on the trainer.


Do you know the reason for this ? Is it just more oxygen, fresh air, less heat....?

2009-11-12 8:31 AM
in reply to: #2510238

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
JorgeM - 2009-11-12 8:16 AM  I ride the computrainer indoors but usually use the power tap to measure my watts since it is what I use outside so my data is consistent all the time.


Thnaks Jorge,

If you use the PT on the Computrainer, how different are the numbers it generates for the same ride ?


2009-11-12 9:56 AM
in reply to: #2510271

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
marcag - 2009-11-12 8:31 AM
JorgeM - 2009-11-12 8:16 AM  I ride the computrainer indoors but usually use the power tap to measure my watts since it is what I use outside so my data is consistent all the time.


Thnaks Jorge,

If you use the PT on the Computrainer, how different are the numbers it generates for the same ride ?
after I calibrate the CT and zero the torque on the PT no more than 1% discrepancy in general.
2009-11-12 11:02 AM
in reply to: #2510245

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
marcag - 2009-11-12 8:22 AM
PennState - 2009-11-10 8:59 PM  From my understanding you will be able to generate more power on your test outside than on the trainer.


Do you know the reason for this ? Is it just more oxygen, fresh air, less heat....?

The is related to inertia. If you have a low inertia trainer (smaller fly wheel) you will produce a higher peak torque during your pedal stroke, while high inertia trainers will allow a more constant torque profile, IOW pedal ina way you are more used to. If you have to produce more torque during a pedal stroke, then you will recruit more muscle fiber bundles. As you recruit more bundles, they get larger in size and tend to be glycolytic (fast-twitch) rather than oxidative (slow-twitch) of what you are used to when riding outside. Since your muscle fibes are not properly trained to handle this kind load then it is normal to struggle to generate the same power when you are indoors on a low inertia trainer (small flywheel) rather than when riding outdoors or better yet to generate greater power when riding outside. Those training with a computrainer experience this at a lesser degree and a way around this for those with regular trainers is to see if they sell a bigger fly wheel option. I know Kurt Kinetic sells separate fly wheels to help fic this issue.

For this reason it is a good idea for those training with power to set their training zones indoors and outdoors. If you are going to be mixing both then be aware of this effect and if you have a low inertia trainer then adjust your zones when indoors by going down 5-10 watts at a time until you get the same level of intensity.
2009-11-12 1:51 PM
in reply to: #2510084

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
beyourself - 2009-11-12 8:13 AM with all due respect but isnt it too early to really spend some much time the "test/test conditions" subject?
it is only the second week. if you improved or did not improved from the first test in the big scheme of things means nothing. i think it's a bit too early to get overly exicited about the numbers, wait few weeks deep into the training and then try to interpret the data.


Nope, not too early in my opinion.  All of the power based workouts are based on your FTP, so the sooner you test the sooner you start training in the zones that Jorge has specified.  As to improving from the first test to the second test, I fully expect that to take place and I'll adjust my zones accordingly.

As for interpreting the data, I did this program last year so I get a great opportunity to compare those numbers to my new ones, and it's nice to debate the testing protocols each of us use, and the pros and cons, especially since some won't have done any testing in the past.
2009-11-12 3:26 PM
in reply to: #2511115

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
GoFaster - 2009-11-12 1:51 PM
Nope, not too early in my opinion.  All of the power based workouts are based on your FTP, so the sooner you test the sooner you start training in the zones that Jorge has specified.  As to improving from the first test to the second test, I fully expect that to take place and I'll adjust my zones accordingly.
As for interpreting the data, I did this program last year so I get a great opportunity to compare those numbers to my new ones, and it's nice to debate the testing protocols each of us use, and the pros and cons, especially since some won't have done any testing in the past.


sure, each of us has an opinion. what im saying one has to look at the big picture here. if you have data from last year sure compare but if you have data from last week dont sweat it. keep it simple keep it stupid....
2009-11-12 4:38 PM
in reply to: #2492759

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Oops. I had forgotten about an appointment, scheduled a couple of months ago, to donate blood this afternoon. I should have gotten a bike workout in yesterday as the donation site wont be healed enough to train this evening. More importantly, I suspect it's going to mess up my testing results. I did the 20 minute test on Monday and had planned to do the 5 minute test on Friday or Saturday. Now, after donating blood, even if I skip the Q2 workout I doubt I'll be able to perform a useful 5 minute test this weekend.

What do you think, Jorge? I do have last year's testing results to compare Monday's test to. I can probably estimate a CP60 value within about 5 watts of what I would get by calculating in an actual 5 minute test. Would that be close enough to train with until the next round of testing? If so, I'll probably try the week 2 Q2 workout later this week and skip the 5 minute test this time.


2009-11-12 5:18 PM
in reply to: #2511432

Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
I am not testing until Sunday, I still have my long ride from week 1 to do after I get up on Friday.

One thing I have noticed is my power seems to be up.  I was using last years numbers to work though the first week.  The problem is I find I am crusing along at the upper scale of where I was pushing hard last year.

Things that have changed are I've done and am doing alot more swimming now.  This is a positive on my overall fitness. 

The next is I went clipless a few days before starting.  When I got setup the guy at the LBS showed me how my stroke was off.  I was pushing the pedal's wiht my toes.  Now I am working more with my heel flatter and making cirlces.  I feel this more in my thighs and around my knees than my calves.

Looking forward to keeping my mind on Fridays two hour ride.

Joe
2009-11-12 7:44 PM
in reply to: #2492759

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread

Micawber - after I donate whole blood, I'm usually not the same for a solid 3 or 4 days.

I just did Week 2, Q2 ... and all I can say is Get Ready for the PAIN!  I actually started too hard in the WU and the first Interval cause my legs felt really good.  I am not used to doing intervals at all.  I'm used to riding at high tempo and just maintaing for however long, so this is new to me. 

Depsite having my trainer next to a wide open window, with 49 degree air blowing in my face, I could've used a second bath towel cause my first was so drenched it became useless

 

2009-11-12 8:37 PM
in reply to: #2492759

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
I just did Q2 and I'm proud to say I executed it perfectly and my AHR for the 10 minute segments was exactly where it was supposed to be for each segment.

I only wish I had this kind of control while running. I'm all over the board while running... but I actually feel like I'm the one in control when I'm on the bike. Laughing

I probably won't do Q3... as I think it's going to be another tolerable weekend... so I might ride outside on Saturday. If I go 3 hours out side on Saturday that takes care of the bike volume.

OK guys... enjoy!
2009-11-12 10:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Week2 Q2 in the bucket.  This one helped me to correlate the zone targets to a cadence and speed, although it took most of the 1st main set segment to recover from the warm-up...likewise at the end I did a longer cd to get back down to the recovery zone.
2009-11-12 10:21 PM
in reply to: #2510225

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Thanks Jorge, that's what I calc'd them on.  Z4 & Z5 feel more 'realistic' now, although it feels like I need to slow down a lot to stay in Z1&2. Then again that's maybe a good indicator I've had the wrong approach up until now...Surprised


2009-11-13 3:24 AM
in reply to: #2492759

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Screwed up my test
I used the average HR over the whole 30 min, not just the last 20 min.   Should I adjust my LTHR up or down?  It is at 143 (146 x 0.97)
2009-11-13 5:51 AM
in reply to: #2492759

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
For us using HRM we take the average HR over the whole 30 minutes.

The Power users only test for 20 minutes. Think that's were you're getting the 20 minutes from.

I used my average HR over the whole 30 minutes to calculate my LTHR so I think you're good with what you calculated.
2009-11-13 3:33 PM
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2009-11-13 3:57 PM
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Royal(PITA)
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread

Question,  I am doing a half mary tomorrow.  I plan on Q3 Sunday(week 1).  I hardly think my body will be wanting to do the LT on Monday.  Would moving the LT (week2 Q1) to a different day be a problem with this plan?  I don't know how much each session builds for the next one.

2009-11-13 4:15 PM
in reply to: #2513167

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
QueenZipp - 2009-11-13 3:57 PM

Question,  I am doing a half mary tomorrow.  I plan on Q3 Sunday(week 1).  I hardly think my body will be wanting to do the LT on Monday.  Would moving the LT (week2 Q1) to a different day be a problem with this plan?  I don't know how much each session builds for the next one.



I think the plan is built around the assumption that you'll have at least 48 hours between the Q sessions. If you do Week1 Q3 on Sunday, you probably shouldn't do Week 2 Q1 until at least Tuesday. That's just how I read the plan. Could be wrong, though.


2009-11-13 4:18 PM
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2009-11-13 4:29 PM
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Royal(PITA)
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread

Thanks.  That means rearranging things but it's doable.  Just not sure I'll be recovered from the half enough to put out a decent  LT test, but it's only the first assessment of bike fitness and I'm not that fast on the bike yet.

2009-11-13 6:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Complete week2 Q2 yesterday.  Felt like I had to keep holding back during the first 10 minute of the four, but by the 3rd and 4th 10 I was glad I had.  A good workout,  I always feel like on sets like those the fitness is really moving forward on that 4th 10.  The first three are just there to get you to that point.

Have a great weekend everyone.  We are having unseasonably warm weather here in NEOhio, so looking forward to my long run tomorrow morning.

2009-11-13 7:41 PM
in reply to: #2492759

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Wow ! after adjusting my FTP up from the week 2, Q1 session, the Q2 session was very tough. I finished it and held the power targets for each of the intervals. It's going to be some "fun" training sessions in the future if the Q2 session was any indication.

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