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2009-10-06 12:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life
Rogillio - 2009-10-06 12:07 PM

Middle ground?  You gotta be kidding me.  Therein lies the problem.  My whole life is testament to extremes.  I can't be happy with running 5ks....no, I've got to do marathons.  Sprint triathlons were just a stepping stone on the road to an ironman.  I quit drinking because I never could find that middle ground between euphoria and inebriation.

My motto has always been 'nothing exceeds like excess'.  Maybe I need to change my motto.  :-)

Ok, I'm going to lunch.... 

~Mike



Testament to extreme?  Nah... you are not in Kona so you are not to the "extreme" yet.  If you want to live up to the "Testament to Extreme" standard, start thinking about how to get there. 


2009-10-06 12:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life
lisac957 - 2009-10-06 10:33 AM

DougRob - 2009-10-06 10:15 AM Mike:

You have had some major issues and changes this year. Don't make any quick decisions. I am 2 years older than you and beginning 18 months ago I lost 85 lbs. (285 to 200). I did it through weight watchers and exercise. WW taught me how to eat differently: better foods, which to eat first, when to eat, not to starve myself, what to look for in my food choices. I also kept a journal so I could actual understand what and how much I was eating. All this worked for me.

You obviously love endurance sports. Perhaps you can find new levels in these activities at a lower weight. While tough. your Dad's passing is natural. Parents are not supposed to outlive their children. Jake's life span was always going to be less than yours. Do not read too much into these losses. I think giving up endurance soport will only make you sadder in the long run.

Doug


This is a great post.
You don't have to starve yourself to loose weight, and it really boggles my mind that people still believe this. Hope you can find a middle ground somewhere.
 


What they said!

First off Mike, hang in there! You are probably a little down about the news, because you have had a rough time of it lately. It's been a hard year... and after a few hit to the gut, it's easy to just say, "screw it", than it is to say, "I'll fight back!".

As for losing weight... and starving... you need to focus on a lifestyle change. NOT DIETING. Go watch, "You are what you eat", on BBC America. Great show. It's all about teaching people how to eat properly to lead a healthy, active life. And guess what, they lose weight while learning how to eat healthy.

I bet if you sat down with a professional they could look at what you are eating on a regular basis and give you suggestions on what to add to your diet and what to cut out.

Of course, this would mean your family coming on board too.

Anyways, hang in there. Don't throw in the towel yet. AND if you love running... don't just lie down and take it! Look at how you can improve your diet and go for it!

2009-10-06 12:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life
Stopping at just 3 slices of Doninos pizza is much more difficult. I'm sure this makes no sense to you....but I know some here can relate.


Oh I can relate! I'll eat a whole medium (regular crust) or large (thin crust) to myself!!!!

So I get pizza on treat days... and otherwise I make my own small pizzas.

2009-10-06 12:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life

Scout7 - 2009-10-06 12:08 PM

My only advice for you is to rethink your goals.  Sit down, do some soul-searching, and be honest with yourself.  Why do you always want to go further?  Why do you want to take things to extremes?  I don't know the answers, and they are no one's business but your own.

Once you determine what it is that you are trying to accomplish, you can determine what those goals are really worth to you, and then what you should be doing to attain those goals.

I speak from personal experience on this matter, and this is the advice I found to be most helpful to reconciling my life.

 

I will do this.  That is a good question and one I have never sought to answer about myself.  I don't know why I do the things I do.  My other hobby is woodworking - see link to pictures in my blog if you're interested - and I tend to have these marathon sessions of working in my shop.  Once I get started on a project, I tend to live in the shop.  I'll stay out there till late a night and go back in before work...I've atually take a vacation day from work to finish up a project.  And then I won't go in my shop for weeks.  Why am this way?  I have no idea.  Perhaps if I could identifty the root cause of my tendancy towards excess, maybe I could slim down.  But then, it is this very nature that drove me to do marathons and an IM in the first place.  Well, it's worth some introspection.  Thanks

~Mike

2009-10-06 12:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life

Mike - I know you are frustrated and disappointed right now, but having read a lot of your posts over the years, I think you love endurance sports too much to give them up without a serious fight.  Running, biking, and swimming are a big part of you.  You obviously are good at setting goals and reaching them, so whatever you decide will be the next phase of your life you will pursue diligently, and I would be willing to bet, successfully.  It just sounds to me like your body is asking you to make some changes in one area to allow it to perform in another.  People have thrown out a lot of options - just do some soul searching to decide what you really want, and when you do (as you have advised others to do) swing for the fences!

2009-10-06 12:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life
Rogillio - 2009-10-06 12:43 PM

Scout7 - 2009-10-06 12:08 PM

My only advice for you is to rethink your goals.  Sit down, do some soul-searching, and be honest with yourself.  Why do you always want to go further?  Why do you want to take things to extremes?  I don't know the answers, and they are no one's business but your own.

Once you determine what it is that you are trying to accomplish, you can determine what those goals are really worth to you, and then what you should be doing to attain those goals.

I speak from personal experience on this matter, and this is the advice I found to be most helpful to reconciling my life.

 

I will do this.  That is a good question and one I have never sought to answer about myself.  I don't know why I do the things I do.  My other hobby is woodworking - see link to pictures in my blog if you're interested - and I tend to have these marathon sessions of working in my shop.  Once I get started on a project, I tend to live in the shop.  I'll stay out there till late a night and go back in before work...I've atually take a vacation day from work to finish up a project.  And then I won't go in my shop for weeks.  Why am this way?  I have no idea.  Perhaps if I could identifty the root cause of my tendancy towards excess, maybe I could slim down.  But then, it is this very nature that drove me to do marathons and an IM in the first place.  Well, it's worth some introspection.  Thanks

~Mike



You are a master artist at woodworking! Amazing stuff!

But it's a creative outlet... artistic... and thus you do it when you feel creative. It's hard to always been moved to do something like that.



2009-10-06 12:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life
I understand what you are saying about extreme, but there is some pretty extreme stuff out there about healthy eating. That is where I would focus my OCD, nutrition. There is a lot to learn and practice. Good luck with your decision. I don't think you will be a happy fat fisherman 
2009-10-06 1:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life
Rogillio - 2009-10-06 12:34 PM

Why would  you assume I don't want to other people think.  I am very interested in what people have written.  I've actually read each one about 4 or 5 times already.  Am I not allowed to each lunch now?  For the record, I got a piece of baked BBQ chicken breast, a little collard green and  some stewed tomatos, no drink.....about 400 calories.

Losing weight is certainly and option.  It is not the ONLY option and is certainly not as simple as some indicate.  Years ago I quit smoking and it was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, ever.  And yet, when my wife quit smoking, it was not that difficult.  Why?  Because we are all different.  Different personalities and different chemistries.  Going on a 5 hrs long solo bike ride on Saturday morning is not that difficult to me.  Stopping at just 3 slices of Doninos pizza is much more difficult.  I'm sure this makes no sense to you....but I know some here can relate.

Anyway, I am not throwing in the towel and becoming a coach potato.  I'm just working thru some things in my head.

~Mike



Why would you assume it would make no sense to me? I have been overweight before.

Sorry if I took your first post to mine wrong... but "you've got to be kidding me" didn't seem like a response from someone who was open to what other people were saying.

 
2009-10-06 1:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life
Rogillio - 2009-10-06 1:07 PM

My motto has always been 'nothing exceeds like excess'.  Maybe I need to change my motto.  :-)

Ok, I'm going to lunch.... 

~Mike



Laughing   I like your sense of humour. Probably feels gallows humour to you!

 Whichever way you choose, I wish you health and happiness. Like my other brother Rob above, I also lost a lot of weight this year- I went from 225 May 1 to 180 this week. I did change my food habits quite a bit but it has become much less difficult the further I go. I still plow through a bag of oreos on occasion that turns up in my grocery cart, but that's OK. Unhealthy foods  are generally less appetizing now and I can't eat as much as I used to at mealtimes even if I wanted to. The side effects are much lower blood sugar and a higher cholesterol ratio.  And of course, I look fitter. I too tend to be an extremist, but for some reason have been able to do this. I think you can too if you want to, and I would put good money on you liking the result. Oh, wait, I shouldn't gamble; I like that too much too.

  Good luck!    
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2009-10-06 1:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life
Rogillio - 2009-10-06 1:43 PM

Scout7 - 2009-10-06 12:08 PM

My only advice for you is to rethink your goals.  Sit down, do some soul-searching, and be honest with yourself.  Why do you always want to go further?  Why do you want to take things to extremes?  I don't know the answers, and they are no one's business but your own.

Once you determine what it is that you are trying to accomplish, you can determine what those goals are really worth to you, and then what you should be doing to attain those goals.

I speak from personal experience on this matter, and this is the advice I found to be most helpful to reconciling my life.

 

I will do this.  That is a good question and one I have never sought to answer about myself.  I don't know why I do the things I do.  My other hobby is woodworking - see link to pictures in my blog if you're interested - and I tend to have these marathon sessions of working in my shop.  Once I get started on a project, I tend to live in the shop.  I'll stay out there till late a night and go back in before work...I've atually take a vacation day from work to finish up a project.  And then I won't go in my shop for weeks.  Why am this way?  I have no idea.  Perhaps if I could identifty the root cause of my tendancy towards excess, maybe I could slim down.  But then, it is this very nature that drove me to do marathons and an IM in the first place.  Well, it's worth some introspection.  Thanks

~Mike



This is Awesome!!! I am a woodworker too. I am the President of NCWoodworker.net. Check us out. We have almost 3500 members now. We take members from neighboring states too. Join us. I'll make sure you're approved. Laughing. You sound a lot like me, except I never smoked.

2009-10-06 1:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life
BTW Mike, I received the Rainbow Bridge poem from a fellow WW'er whose wife is a veterinarian.


2009-10-06 1:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life
Two words ~
"Aqua Velo"

Don't give up

Ella Fitzgerald ~ Just don't give up trying to do what you really want to do.
Where there is love and inspiration, I don't think you can go wrong.

Dale Carnegie ~ Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no hope at all.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1376483757585613557#
2009-10-06 2:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life
Then screw the middle ground. Take it to the extreme. Treat your diet like you would treat marathon and IM training. No more Dominos. Unless you are 7 feet tall you are obese. You could probably lose almost 100#. I shed almost 25% of my weight a few years ago with a diet change, and I eat basically the same diet every week (with a slice of pizza here and there). No yo-yo, no gimmicks. Eat excessively healthy.


Rogillio - 2009-10-06 11:07 AM




You don't have to starve yourself to loose weight, and it really boggles my mind that people still believe this. Hope you can find a middle ground somewhere.
 

 

Middle ground?  You gotta be kidding me.  Therein lies the problem.  My whole life is testament to extremes.  I can't be happy with running 5ks....no, I've got to do marathons.  Sprint triathlons were just a stepping stone on the road to an ironman.  I quit drinking because I never could find that middle ground between euphoria and inebriation.

My motto has always been 'nothing exceeds like excess'.  Maybe I need to change my motto.  :-)

Ok, I'm going to lunch.... 

~Mike

2009-10-06 2:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life

I agree with earlier poster. You are in the midst of some important soul searching and you should give yourself time to work these out.

I went through some major life changes which were outside my control. I ultimately slid into terrible shape and the heaviest weight of my life. One day I visited my sick father in the hospital. Looking at him I realized that we had the same physique and I did not want to like he did after a life of inactivity. I like to say it scared me skinny (although I will never be truely skinny). Weight has always been a problem for me, and yes  at 56 it is easier to put on and harder to take off. On the other hand I have a lot more experience.

I had a complete ACL replacement and high tibial osteotomy over 20 years ago. I've had 6 surgeries to my left knee in total. At the time of my reconstructive surgery I told myself I wouldn't run unless my weight was below a certain point. The end result was that I didn't run for a couple of decades. Instead I swam, cycled, and surfed.

Four years ago I started to trail walk/hike to lose weight (I lost 45 lb.). This turned into walk/run, which turned into run/walk and finally running. Along with cycling on a trainer I found myself in great shape and entered a tri on a whim. You know the rest of the story.

I do some of my best running in the winter. Here in Oregon we get consistent rain in the winter. I do all my running on trails and love to run in the mud. We also have a lot of wood chipped trails and I run on them too. The only time I run on pavement is during a race. I just respect my knee to much. I also don't run hard on my knee except in the race. While training for my first HIM this summer I realized that it was requiring more running than I thought good for my knee. I eventually broke a toe 4 days before the event so I wasn't able to do it. At that point I decided I would do the Long Course tri I had planned for later in the summer, and I would do one HIM next year. But after that I was sticking with Olys, Sprints and OW races. 

While I had to give up going long, I realized that to do so would shorten my competitive career and that was not worth it. You can say I decided to go for the long career instead of the long distance. Better to win the war than any single battle. You are still young enough to develop very challenging competitive goals and get you weight down to help yourself achieve those goals. I wish you the best and remember, many of us are out there not because we have no physical limitations or injuries, but rather in spite of them.

 



Edited by E=H2O 2009-10-06 2:17 PM
2009-10-06 2:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life
breckview - 2009-10-06 11:54 AM If it were me, I'd quit running until I lost the weight. I'd switch to pure cycling and ramp up mileage to the point where fat falls off regularly and is eventually gone. Cycling is low impact, can be done until very late in life, and can be done at a calorie-burning effort for longer periods than most other sports. Almost without exception, every cyclist averaging 200 miles/week is either very thin and has to force down calories (me), or is losing weight quickly. (And, before anyone tries to prove to me wrong with exceptions, be prepared to PROVE a sustained 200 mile per week average which is 10,400 miles per year.) When your riding volume is this high you'll eventually average 20 mph so we're talking 10 hours per week. IMO, if you did this for a couple years you could take up running again and you'd probably improve to a much higher level. There are lots of runners with meniscus damage. But you're right to be concerned, being heavy and running on that damage is very risky. Once your meniscus goes, knee replacement is next. If a 10 hour per week investment seems high, imagine the impact of that investment on your current health and your future quality of life as you age. The people doing the other activities you mention get fatter every year because that's the body's natural survival method as long as food is available.


I'm sorta hobbling down your same path...

I have chronic arthritis in both knees... with bone spurs. I did IMWI this year, and I'd like to do another IM, but I know that I just can't do it until I take the time necessary to rehabilitate my wayward joints.

2010 is going to be a year of strength training, rehab, and short races. I still intend to train long and hard on the bike, and train long in the swim so I don't lose much in the way of swim/bike fitness. And hopefully I'll gain some bike fitness along the way! The plan is to have 2010 culminate in the Redman Full distance Aquabike. And I hope to be prepared enough to be competitive in the Aquabike category. (See? Still involved, but not doing the detrimental activity!)

I've given up the idea of running a stand alone marathon ever again. I don't derive that much joy out of it and it really makes my knees hurt and causes damage in the long run (pun intended)...

My suggestion to you is to take a year "off"... have your surgery. Rehab yourself and then see where you stand. Focus on your diet and strength training the same way you focus on S/B/R training while preparing for IM. You can do it. It can be done.

Wanna do the Redman Aquabike? September 2010. Laughing
2009-10-06 2:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life
My boyfriend is going through the same thing.

He was a competitive runner back in the day, but had to give up running in his early 30's thanks to a high-school football injury.  The injury itself didn't wreck his knee, but the ensuing old-school meniscus removal did.

Recently, he went back to the orthopedist thinking that he had rehabbed his knee enough to get back into running.  X-rays showed that his knee was still as bad as ever.  This was especially a blow as he wanted to do tri's with me.

So what's he going to do?

For sprints, we will become a relay team with me doing the running.  He will also be participating in IMLP 2012 with me and just walk the marathon portion.

Just how we're handling the whole "doing triathlon without running" problem.  Hope this helps.


2009-10-06 2:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life

Rogillio - 2009-10-06 10:07 AM



Middle ground?  You gotta be kidding me.  Therein lies the problem.  My whole life is testament to extremes.  I can't be happy with running 5ks....no, I've got to do marathons.  Sprint triathlons were just a stepping stone on the road to an ironman.  I quit drinking because I never could find that middle ground between euphoria and inebriation.

My motto has always been 'nothing exceeds like excess'.  Maybe I need to change my motto.  :-)

Ok, I'm going to lunch.... 

~Mike

I've kind of gone back and forth with this thread.  I can somewhat relate to some of your feelings...if I had my way I would not do tris and focus on running.  But my body just does not like me pounding the miles I did in my 20s and 30s!  Most triathlete is going to be faced with what you are now faced with at some point.  Running is one third of the triathlon.  If you can't do that, well, maybe take that time you spent running and focus on getting faster on the bike or swim?  I know a lot of cyclists that can no longer run...but they are fit.  In fact, go to a criterium and take a look at the guys racing.  Most of them look more fit than the average triathlete.

Anyway, good luck with working all of this out.  I'm not going to say anything about the eating thing...just keep running and swimming!

2009-10-06 3:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life

Hey Mike,

In regards to dropping body fat specifically.  The guy I do boot camp with spoke words I have never forgotten.  He said everyone in that room could have any body they wanted if they were willing to make the sacrifices & do the work.  I believe you can too.  He said there were no unrealistic goals, only unrealistic time frames.  What weight would you LOVE to be?  What is a number that the sheer thought of it makes you so excited that you can hardly stand it?  I set those goals.  And I decided for 6 weeks I was going all in to see what I could do.  And I found a motivation, a level of commitment & dedication I literally didn't know I had.  

Pursuit of the goal was FAR superior to eating pizza on a Tuesday.  But it wasn't easy.  I took one free day per week.  Not sure I could have done it without the free day.  When my boot camp guy did something similar (Body For Life) he said he and his wife would literally plan out all week what drive-thrus they were hitting on their free day (we call it Fat Sat (Saturday))..  But that only works b/c they were +/-1% of what they were supposed to be eating the other 6x/week.  It would never have worked for me to say have 1 cheat per day.  I'd rather go 6 full on and 1 go nuts day.  Lots of ways to skin a cat.   Just wanted to get your mind thinking of new ideas that might be more doable for you.

2009-10-06 3:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life
Don't know if it's been mentioned...but maybe lay off the LSD stuff (IM training) and mix in some short, intense stuff. Give your metabolism a jumpstart to help aid you in your weightloss. (And, FWIW, I LOATHE the idea that a challenge or an "extreme" can't be found in shorter distance stuff. It's not an inferior race--it's a DIFFERENT one.)

That being said...Your doc says "Hey, you're too heavy to do what you love. If you want to keep at it, lose some weight." You say, "Nah. I'll just quit." That, to me, says you don't love it all that much.

Now, there's nothing wrong with not loving triathlons. But there IS something to be said about wanting to be healthy and a good weight. Changing your lifestyle and your views on food and nutrition might not be an EASY fix...but it certainly is a 100% POSSIBLE one.
2009-10-06 3:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life
AQUABIKE!
2009-10-06 3:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life

I've said this in various ways in various threads over the past couple years and people tend to run the other way from this, but the simple fact is that an awful lot of folks here on BT are struggling with weightloss more than they ultimately need to because it appears (from their statements here) that they feel like they are active enough that either they should be losing weight due to their extreme volume of training or they are as fit as they need to be because they can train (and/or race) to extremes.  Both are--usually--failed approaches in the long run.  A conscious approach to nutrition and lifestyle is the foundation on which fitness (whatever that means to any one person) is built.

I'd echo the comments of several others who recommended Weight Watchers.  My wife lost 62 lbs in 7 months while unable to exercise due to a disc problem using WW.  I didn't join WW, but many of its principles have helped me keep off the 75 lbs I lost.  But whether it's WW or just your own intuition guiding you, the key is not thinking in terms of "dieting", but making longterm healthier choices.  What Scout said about self-examination as to goals, what Bryan said about choices, I'd second...I'd call it priorities, personally.

Good luck.



2009-10-06 3:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life
I'm probably going to rub some people wrong here but here goes.

Nutrition is definately the 4th discipline in the sport, and not only in racing but in training you have to work at it.  I have 22% body fat and technically I'm too fat to run.  There was an article a few years back in Runner's World that the 1# cause of running injuries is running with too much weight (over 20% bf). 

My wife's family is all overweight and since we've been married for years I had the privledge of watching her parents eat to near death (diabetes, high blood pressure), and see some of the pre diabetic conditions of some of her sisters.  A few weeks ago I told them that thier diets were killing them and I've been somewhat ostracised for the comment but ultimately my father in law is going to die real soon because of his weight and if my comments can help, then I can take it.

In the past 10 years there's been quite a shift in eating habits, a more acceptable stance for obesity, and a general lack of care about health.   People see folks like Micheal Strahan, Ryan Howard, Brian Urlacher and see that build as healthy because they're pros and wonder why lose weight. 

Anyway Rogillio, I don't know you so I'm not going to criticize your situation.  Lose the weight, eat better, take a few years off running.  Cycle like a madman, and do some TT's or crits.  Whatever you decide to do, lose the weight, each pound lost extends your life.
2009-10-06 4:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life

Lots of good advice here - especially the ones who said you need to do some soul searching (which you've already started, really).  Just wanted to add two things:

1.  Being lighter is a lot more fun than being heavier.  Life is just easier!  You don't hit weight limits, you can ride all the rides, you don't need to buy special ladders   It's just nicer to be lighter on your feet and that is one of many reasons that losing weight will enhance your life.  I lost about 30 lbs and even in that span I feel like a new woman.  No matter what, it's worth your while.

2.  People have mentioned Weight Watchers and other resources to help you with weight loss.  In general, I wanted to emphasize the importance of a food journal.   You will quickly learn how many calories are in things and having that knowledge will help you make good choices for life, even when you cannot look at your WW book or whatever.  Understanding truly and honestly what's going into your mouth is critical.  I used www.myfooddiary.com and it works well for a do-it-yourselfer.

Good luck! 

2009-10-06 4:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life
I hear where you're coming from a bit here. I've always been 'sturdy', 'big-boned', 'thick' and while I ran many 5 and 10k's and a few half marathons, my knees complained loudly. Somewhere over the course of the years, I had one knee arthroscoped.

Last year I kind of gave it up and let go running and quickly ballooned up to 215. About the beginning of this year, I started walking the dog 'like I'm late' (long and fast...not speedwalking per se) and hitting strength training pretty hard. I was touched by your account of Jake to the point where I had to stop reading, knowing how hard it will be for me when the time comes.

Anyways, I figured my running days were over. I also started looking at swimming to add to my strength work since there was almost no impact to my knees. I also started watching what I eat...not starving...just being aware of how much is going in.

Over the course of a 3-4 months, I was down around 190 and started re-introducing running carefully and I started finding my knees weren't the problem anymore. I'd strongly suggest giving something like this a try rather than stopping running all together. You are going to be recovering from the knee surgery for awhile anyways...take that time to build up the rest of your body. Add some lean muscle mass to help burn calories while you're not running. Watch what you put in the tank.

You'll be back in the pack in no time.
2009-10-06 7:02 PM
in reply to: #2445061

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Subject: RE: Rethinking Life
Congrats on you Ironman's, other Tri's and Marathons!

I feel for you and am in a similar boat. Though I have just begun my tri journey and I have arthritis in my left knee, I currently have synvisc gel in it and I can run some but it is always a struggle.

I have been working on and losing weight making it easier on my knees but it's a conundrum that running really helps one lose weight yet it is hard to run when you have weight to lose. I am currently trying to come up with some system that works for running short distances, low impact like elliptical and aqua jogging to help get me there.

When my sports Doc orthopedist looked at my knee xrays and knowing that I run on it there was not a very pleasant look on his face. I hope someday in the not too distant future stem cell research will be able to build me some new knee parts, hopefully that will be 5-10 years but I don't know if my knee will make it that long.

Best to you, I'm sure you will find a solution that makes you happy.

P.S. One of my neighbors is having a double knee replacement tomorrow, I will be checking in on her and wondering if that might be a solution for me eventually.
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