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2015-03-26 8:28 AM
in reply to: schaumi

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by schaumi I do flip turns, but that doesn't mean I'm not resting. Just like any other part of working out (running, biking or swimming), I can do them easy or hard. I may not be catching my breath, but that doesn't mean I can't rest. When I do long timed sets, I flip, hit the lap button on my watch every 100 and see what my time was or check my lap count, all underwater on my side. If I'm sprinting or going hard, my flip will be fast. If I'm warming up, my flip will be slow and lazy. With that out of the way, I do have a real question about flip turns a times. If I do two lengths of the pool, I will push off the wall with my feet, probably with one had on the wall. When I get to the other end of the pool, I can do an open turn or a flip turn. If I do an open turn, one had will touch the wall, I will use my arm to help swing my body around to get my feet to the wall and push off. So at least one of my hands have travelled the whole 25y/m/whatever. I then complete the second length and touch the wall with my hand. If a do a flip turn, I will still start off with one hand on the wall and push off with both feet. When I get the other end, my hand stop well short of the wall, I pivot somewhere around the middle of my torso and only my feet hit the wall. My head and hands have not travelled as far down the pool as they would have using an open turn. SO, I theorize that people who do open turns actually cover more distance than people who do flip turns. Thoughts?

Except the people doing the flip turns can cover more distance in the same amount of time (or the same distance in less time).  Sooooo, completely irrelevant?



2015-03-26 8:32 AM
in reply to: TriTampa2

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by TriTampa2 Anxiously waiting the arrival in this thread of the Endless Pool contingent to laugh at all the rest flip turners are doing during their swims. Ain't no laps in an Endless Pool.

Yeah, bring 'em on.  While an endless pool is a wonderful way to simulate an open water swim, it is a terribly inefficient way to build aerobic base, improve endurance, or increase speed.

I will take a pool where I have to do flip-turns over an endless pool every time!

2015-03-26 8:34 AM
in reply to: lanzodt

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by lanzodt Yes, I agree with you but at this point in my triathlon career I think putting time and effort into the bike and run would be more beneficial to me. I am effectively a beginner and to me, I see biking a running as having more gain potential than the swim. In addition, I hope that I do get my 1:55/100yd swim down to 1:40ish. I am following Don Fink's IM plan so I think it's possible and do hope it happens but what I meant by that statement was that the swim is a necessary evil and I will train for the swim but it's not as important to me in the grand scheme of an IM.

You can choose to do (or not do) any parts of the training you like, but do keep in mind making choices like that for enjoyment, while perfectly understandable, are substantially different than trying to rationalize them as being effective (or not) in making one faster.

2015-03-26 8:45 AM
in reply to: k9car363


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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by TriTampa2 Anxiously waiting the arrival in this thread of the Endless Pool contingent to laugh at all the rest flip turners are doing during their swims. Ain't no laps in an Endless Pool.

Yeah, bring 'em on.  While an endless pool is a wonderful way to simulate an open water swim, it is a terribly inefficient way to build aerobic base, improve endurance, or increase speed.

I will take a pool where I have to do flip-turns over an endless pool every time!




I've obviously joking but wondering about your statement about an endless pool being
terribly inefficient way to build aerobic base, improve endurance, or increase speed
. Why exactly is this the case? I assumed since with the endless pool you can adjust the current that you swim against that you can use that to do intervals and things like that. Maybe I'm wrong.
2015-03-26 8:48 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by lanzodt Yes, I agree with you but at this point in my triathlon career I think putting time and effort into the bike and run would be more beneficial to me. I am effectively a beginner and to me, I see biking a running as having more gain potential than the swim. In addition, I hope that I do get my 1:55/100yd swim down to 1:40ish. I am following Don Fink's IM plan so I think it's possible and do hope it happens but what I meant by that statement was that the swim is a necessary evil and I will train for the swim but it's not as important to me in the grand scheme of an IM.

You can choose to do (or not do) any parts of the training you like, but do keep in mind making choices like that for enjoyment, while perfectly understandable, are substantially different than trying to rationalize them as being effective (or not) in making one faster.

Agreed.  Your decision to neglect aspects of the swim is a choice you can make for whatever personal reasons you choose.  But you are mistaken in your rationalization that it is less important for you as a beginner or in the grand scheme of an IM.  Look at it this way, the swim impacts your entire race.  Your bike impacts your bike & run.  Your run impacts just your run.  Why is the swim less important?

2015-03-26 8:50 AM
in reply to: schaumi


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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by schaumi

I do flip turns, but that doesn't mean I'm not resting. Just like any other part of working out (running, biking or swimming), I can do them easy or hard. I may not be catching my breath, but that doesn't mean I can't rest. When I do long timed sets, I flip, hit the lap button on my watch every 100 and see what my time was or check my lap count, all underwater on my side. If I'm sprinting or going hard, my flip will be fast. If I'm warming up, my flip will be slow and lazy.

With that out of the way, I do have a real question about flip turns a times. If I do two lengths of the pool, I will push off the wall with my feet, probably with one had on the wall. When I get to the other end of the pool, I can do an open turn or a flip turn.

If I do an open turn, one had will touch the wall, I will use my arm to help swing my body around to get my feet to the wall and push off. So at least one of my hands have travelled the whole 25y/m/whatever. I then complete the second length and touch the wall with my hand.

If a do a flip turn, I will still start off with one hand on the wall and push off with both feet. When I get the other end, my hand stop well short of the wall, I pivot somewhere around the middle of my torso and only my feet hit the wall. My head and hands have not travelled as far down the pool as they would have using an open turn.

SO, I theorize that people who do open turns actually cover more distance than people who do flip turns. Thoughts?

You cover the same distance with a flip turn or an open turn. It doesn't matter if you touch with your hands or your feet the pool is still the same distance and you went from one wall to the other.


2015-03-26 8:52 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by Left Brain

The folks at the front of the swim in a triathlon are perfectly content with you never learning to do them and use them in practice.

Yes! Also, keep doing those long, steady state swims as a regular part of training




Ha, this it totally me! I'm the guy who just learned to swim last year and I'm pretty content swimming like a turtle - long and slow. No interest in interval training... I just like to zone out and swim.

I'm not going to read the 5 full pages of comments here - but I suspect learning to flip turn would help you to be "one with the water." I get it. Maybe someday I'll be the turtle in the pool who can also flip.

Edited by cassowary 2015-03-26 8:53 AM
2015-03-26 8:56 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by lanzodt Yes, I agree with you but at this point in my triathlon career I think putting time and effort into the bike and run would be more beneficial to me. I am effectively a beginner and to me, I see biking a running as having more gain potential than the swim. In addition, I hope that I do get my 1:55/100yd swim down to 1:40ish. I am following Don Fink's IM plan so I think it's possible and do hope it happens but what I meant by that statement was that the swim is a necessary evil and I will train for the swim but it's not as important to me in the grand scheme of an IM.

You can choose to do (or not do) any parts of the training you like, but do keep in mind making choices like that for enjoyment, while perfectly understandable, are substantially different than trying to rationalize them as being effective (or not) in making one faster.




I have no intentions of not sticking to my training plan or cutting out swims because I don't like it as much. I know my first IM is nothing to scoff at and I want to succeed (succeed for me is to finish healthy and strong) and don't want to undermine that goal. What I meant to come out of my original post is that I don't like swimming as much as the other disciplines and am not particularly good at it and form my POV flip-turns won't be the determining factor in my goal for IM. I want to be the Cherokee and don't have any dilusions that I am racing to compete on this one; this season is simply my first step in (hopefully) a long career of triathlon. Maybe down the road I will change my opinion but until then, I will be training for the swim slower than my flip turn competent peer.

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by lanzodt . . . In the water, triathletes are Jeep Cherokees (what I currently own) and this guy next to me (could be triathlete but let's assume not) is a Ferrari. The flip turn is like power sliding into a parking spot or around a turn. Obviously, the Ferrari can do this without even a qualm but the Cherokee is going to have issues achieving this feat because while not specifically made for power sliding, they can do a bunch of different things that a Ferrari cannot. However, trying to go off-road or transport anything besides 2-people cannot be achieved by a Ferrari. So me (the Cherokee) will continue my trying focusing on the fact that I also have 138.2 more miles to go after I get out of the water.

At least this my perception as I start my IM training plan and the swim is 1) my least favorite leg 2) the one I am least worried about and 3) not worth it to me to spend hours upon hours trying to get my time in the water from 1:20 to 1:00 . . .

This is where a really high percentage of AG triathletes miss the boat! (Dan, I am not picking on you and this is not directed at you personally. It is intended in a broad, general sense).

I hear it all the time, "The swim is only 10% of my race so I am not going to spend more than 10% of my time training for that little bit of my race day," or something very similar - basically discounting the importance of the swim. What those triathletes are missing however is that the swim isn't necessarily about the time. It is about setting yourself up for the rest of the day. Whether a triathlete is trying to go from 2:00 -> 1:45 per 100 or 1:30 -> 1:15 per 100 is really not that important. What matters is being able to swim aerobically and efficiently. You simply are not going to be able to do that swimming a couple of 30-minute workouts per week (or some other ridiculously low volume mandated by 10% of your training time). Sorry, isn't going to happen.

Along the same lines, the successful, competitive triathletes ALL are doing flip-turns in the pool. EVERY one of them. Sorry, you may not like to hear that, but there it is. Competitive triathletes can SWIM. They don't beat the water into submission, they are smooth, efficient, and graceful in the water, not to mention fast by triathlon standards (a few are even fast by swimming standards). Flip-turns just happen to be a part of smooth, efficient and graceful swimming. Sorry, that is just the way it is. Look at those that don't do flip-turns. What trait do almost all of them share? It isn't smooth, efficient, and graceful swimming, rather they tend to have sub-standard technique and struggle with the swim.

It comes down to this: Do you want to complete a triathlon or do you want to compete in a triathlon. The Jeep Cherokee analogy is a wonderful analogy in that the Jeep can definitely complete a triathlon, but it will never compete in a triathlon.

So, continue to train with insufficient volume and continue to discount the value of flip-turns. You will continue to be anaerobic during your swim and come out of the water baked and often forfeit the opportunity to have a good race day - but, yeah, you may complete your triathlon. OR, increase the importance of swim training, do what swimmers do to improve (uh oh, the means learning to flip-turn), stay aerobic in the water on race day and compete in your triathlon.

The choice is yours.




Thank you for this. No offense taken and I appreciate what you had to say. I guess I hadn't really thought about the grand scale as deeply as I should have. Like I said, I will continue to train for the swim. From the training plan I am following, my swim sessions will total 2 hrs/week in the first months and then be 3 sessions/week. These all include drills. I hope that this makes me a stronger and more efficient swimmer because you are correct that the swim can make or break my day.
2015-03-26 9:47 AM
in reply to: lanzodt

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by lanzodt
Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by lanzodt Yes, I agree with you but at this point in my triathlon career I think putting time and effort into the bike and run would be more beneficial to me. I am effectively a beginner and to me, I see biking a running as having more gain potential than the swim. In addition, I hope that I do get my 1:55/100yd swim down to 1:40ish. I am following Don Fink's IM plan so I think it's possible and do hope it happens but what I meant by that statement was that the swim is a necessary evil and I will train for the swim but it's not as important to me in the grand scheme of an IM.

You can choose to do (or not do) any parts of the training you like, but do keep in mind making choices like that for enjoyment, while perfectly understandable, are substantially different than trying to rationalize them as being effective (or not) in making one faster.

I have no intentions of not sticking to my training plan or cutting out swims because I don't like it as much. I know my first IM is nothing to scoff at and I want to succeed (succeed for me is to finish healthy and strong) and don't want to undermine that goal. What I meant to come out of my original post is that I don't like swimming as much as the other disciplines and am not particularly good at it and form my POV flip-turns won't be the determining factor in my goal for IM. I want to be the Cherokee and don't have any dilusions that I am racing to compete on this one; this season is simply my first step in (hopefully) a long career of triathlon. Maybe down the road I will change my opinion but until then, I will be training for the swim slower than my flip turn competent peer. 

I realize I'm being quite blunt in my posts and hoping that's not being taken as overly snippy, condescending or other such thing. Just short on time.

I didn't like the analogy as it implies that skills & abilities are much more fixed than they are. It also seems to be an attempt to build in an excuse ahead of time. People starting off may look like the Cherokee, but they don't have to stay that way. Especially with swimming, go hard into learning about it. Get lessons. Go to masters. The skill and mental fortitude for the concentration swimming requires are so much higher than running or biking. Myself and others are actually not saying to do more (though would not discourage that either ), but to go heavy into getting the most out of the time that you are putting in. You may learn to like swimming more. You may not. But do what you can to learn it sooner rather than later as the fitness you build for swimming is built upon your advancing skill level. So do everything you can to enhance the skill. The more you can do to swim more correctly, the more the time you are putting in will be put to better use. While certainly not everything, flip turns are one thing you can do that will add to this. If you're not any good at them, get some instruction as to how to do better. The skill aspects learned in swimming tend to hold rather well over time. There are plenty of former swim kids here who are blazing fast in a tri swim on only 1-2 swims a week.

2015-03-26 9:48 AM
in reply to: lanzodt


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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
I'm now more happy about my inability to do flip turns with any consistency, yet with a desire to see if I can sort them out for no actual quantitative reason.
(BTW...thanks Moonrocket for the idea of the two parter and getting some of that 'rest' on my back. A few seconds is all I need.)

I'm only in to triathlon because it's a 'new thing' for me. New things are always good. Especially new things that were undoable for me as of 3-4 years ago. That's why I want to mix in flip turns. Not because I feel I NEED to. Not that it will make me faster or better able to become a better/faster swimmer (which, I'm sure it would). That's essentially meaningless to a completer like me. What's meaningful is learning, accomplishing, and achieving abilities no matter the pursuit.

Here's the two before/after pics I posted today for a Facebook TBT:
The before in Pic 1 is 25 lbs. DOWN from my high mark 10+ years ago when I had my first stint with exercise.
The before in Pic 2 is about 8 months later right after a move/new job that disrupted my initial efforts as I started to waddle back toward my 305# high tide.
The afters are from a few weeks ago, or two years ago after I learned how to eat and exercise.



Image and video hosting by TinyPic

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

Sorry for the pic spam. I'm just here representing the hobbyist crowd (who sometimes remains hesitant to jump in the pool with some of y'all). And letting you all know that I really enjoy the point/counterpoint. When you guys have to think through your opinions when you sound them out, it's often FAR BETTER than just reading an article and assuming it's right. I don't assume any of you all are right. Well, more accurately, I just don't assume anybody's wrong. I take bits and pieces, put them together, try a few things, see what works and run (or in this case....swim) with it.




2015-03-26 9:49 AM
in reply to: jhaack39


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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
And yes, I am aware that I used to look a lot like Philip Seymour Hoffman, I got that a lot. It was generally preceded by "Now don't take this the wrong way but you look just like...." I mean what the heck is that supposed to mean?


And, I am fully aware that I now look a heck of a lot like Randy Travis. I get it all the time.


2015-03-26 10:05 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by lanzodt . . . In the water, triathletes are Jeep Cherokees (what I currently own) and this guy next to me (could be triathlete but let's assume not) is a Ferrari. The flip turn is like power sliding into a parking spot or around a turn. Obviously, the Ferrari can do this without even a qualm but the Cherokee is going to have issues achieving this feat because while not specifically made for power sliding, they can do a bunch of different things that a Ferrari cannot. However, trying to go off-road or transport anything besides 2-people cannot be achieved by a Ferrari. So me (the Cherokee) will continue my trying focusing on the fact that I also have 138.2 more miles to go after I get out of the water.

At least this my perception as I start my IM training plan and the swim is 1) my least favorite leg 2) the one I am least worried about and 3) not worth it to me to spend hours upon hours trying to get my time in the water from 1:20 to 1:00 . . .

This is where a really high percentage of AG triathletes miss the boat! (Dan, I am not picking on you and this is not directed at you personally.  It is intended in a broad, general sense).

I hear it all the time, "The swim is only 10% of my race so I am not going to spend more than 10% of my time training for that little bit of my race day," or something very similar - basically discounting the importance of the swim.  What those triathletes are missing however is that the swim isn't necessarily about the time.  It is about setting yourself up for the rest of the day.  Whether a triathlete is trying to go from 2:00 -> 1:45 per 100 or 1:30 -> 1:15 per 100 is really not that important.  What matters is being able to swim aerobically and efficiently.  You simply are not going to be able to do that swimming a couple of 30-minute workouts per week (or some other ridiculously low volume mandated by 10% of your training time).  Sorry, isn't going to happen.

Along the same lines, the successful, competitive triathletes ALL are doing flip-turns in the pool.  EVERY one of them.  Sorry, you may not like to hear that, but there it is.  Competitive triathletes can SWIM.  They don't beat the water into submission, they are smooth, efficient, and graceful in the water, not to mention fast by triathlon standards (a few are even fast by swimming standards).  Flip-turns just happen to be a part of smooth, efficient and graceful swimming.  Sorry, that is just the way it is.  Look at those that don't do flip-turns.  What trait do almost all of them share?  It isn't smooth, efficient, and graceful swimming, rather they tend to have sub-standard technique and struggle with the swim.

It comes down to this:  Do you want to complete a triathlon or do you want to compete in a triathlon.  The Jeep Cherokee analogy is a wonderful analogy in that the Jeep can definitely complete a triathlon, but it will never compete in a triathlon.

So, continue to train with insufficient volume and continue to discount the value of flip-turns.  You will continue to be anaerobic during your swim and come out of the water baked and often forfeit the opportunity to have a good race day - but, yeah, you may complete your triathlon.  OR, increase the importance of swim training, do what swimmers do to improve (uh oh, the means learning to flip-turn), stay aerobic in the water on race day and compete in your triathlon.

The choice is yours.

I said it before, but this is an overreaching statement.  There are competitive triathletes (KQ) who are not very good swimmers, and those that don't flip turn.

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that it pays to be the best athlete you can be in each of the three discplines, and to train to achieve that, however some individuals through time, desire, whatever, are going to be sub par in one discipline but excel in the other two and remain competitive.

2015-03-26 10:13 AM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

how about 99.9% of competitive triathletes, then you can have your anecdotal 1 guy

2015-03-26 10:18 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
5 pages. Flip Turn threads never fail to be entertaining.

Non-flipper here, although I used to do them. I am Old and Crotchety and just don't like them and content with my 1:30 to1:40 per 100 pace for 1/2 mile open water swims.

NOW GET OFF MY LAWN!
2015-03-26 10:20 AM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by GoFaster

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by lanzodt . . . In the water, triathletes are Jeep Cherokees (what I currently own) and this guy next to me (could be triathlete but let's assume not) is a Ferrari. The flip turn is like power sliding into a parking spot or around a turn. Obviously, the Ferrari can do this without even a qualm but the Cherokee is going to have issues achieving this feat because while not specifically made for power sliding, they can do a bunch of different things that a Ferrari cannot. However, trying to go off-road or transport anything besides 2-people cannot be achieved by a Ferrari. So me (the Cherokee) will continue my trying focusing on the fact that I also have 138.2 more miles to go after I get out of the water.

At least this my perception as I start my IM training plan and the swim is 1) my least favorite leg 2) the one I am least worried about and 3) not worth it to me to spend hours upon hours trying to get my time in the water from 1:20 to 1:00 . . .

This is where a really high percentage of AG triathletes miss the boat! (Dan, I am not picking on you and this is not directed at you personally.  It is intended in a broad, general sense).

I hear it all the time, "The swim is only 10% of my race so I am not going to spend more than 10% of my time training for that little bit of my race day," or something very similar - basically discounting the importance of the swim.  What those triathletes are missing however is that the swim isn't necessarily about the time.  It is about setting yourself up for the rest of the day.  Whether a triathlete is trying to go from 2:00 -> 1:45 per 100 or 1:30 -> 1:15 per 100 is really not that important.  What matters is being able to swim aerobically and efficiently.  You simply are not going to be able to do that swimming a couple of 30-minute workouts per week (or some other ridiculously low volume mandated by 10% of your training time).  Sorry, isn't going to happen.

Along the same lines, the successful, competitive triathletes ALL are doing flip-turns in the pool.  EVERY one of them.  Sorry, you may not like to hear that, but there it is.  Competitive triathletes can SWIM.  They don't beat the water into submission, they are smooth, efficient, and graceful in the water, not to mention fast by triathlon standards (a few are even fast by swimming standards).  Flip-turns just happen to be a part of smooth, efficient and graceful swimming.  Sorry, that is just the way it is.  Look at those that don't do flip-turns.  What trait do almost all of them share?  It isn't smooth, efficient, and graceful swimming, rather they tend to have sub-standard technique and struggle with the swim.

It comes down to this:  Do you want to complete a triathlon or do you want to compete in a triathlon.  The Jeep Cherokee analogy is a wonderful analogy in that the Jeep can definitely complete a triathlon, but it will never compete in a triathlon.

So, continue to train with insufficient volume and continue to discount the value of flip-turns.  You will continue to be anaerobic during your swim and come out of the water baked and often forfeit the opportunity to have a good race day - but, yeah, you may complete your triathlon.  OR, increase the importance of swim training, do what swimmers do to improve (uh oh, the means learning to flip-turn), stay aerobic in the water on race day and compete in your triathlon.

The choice is yours.

I said it before, but this is an overreaching statement.  There are competitive triathletes (KQ) who are not very good swimmers, and those that don't flip turn.

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that it pays to be the best athlete you can be in each of the three discplines, and to train to achieve that, however some individuals through time, desire, whatever, are going to be sub par in one discipline but excel in the other two and remain competitive.

How many sub 2hr Olympic guys are there that are poor swimmers?

2015-03-26 10:25 AM
in reply to: msteiner

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by msteiner

Originally posted by GoFaster

Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by lanzodt . . . In the water, triathletes are Jeep Cherokees (what I currently own) and this guy next to me (could be triathlete but let's assume not) is a Ferrari. The flip turn is like power sliding into a parking spot or around a turn. Obviously, the Ferrari can do this without even a qualm but the Cherokee is going to have issues achieving this feat because while not specifically made for power sliding, they can do a bunch of different things that a Ferrari cannot. However, trying to go off-road or transport anything besides 2-people cannot be achieved by a Ferrari. So me (the Cherokee) will continue my trying focusing on the fact that I also have 138.2 more miles to go after I get out of the water.

At least this my perception as I start my IM training plan and the swim is 1) my least favorite leg 2) the one I am least worried about and 3) not worth it to me to spend hours upon hours trying to get my time in the water from 1:20 to 1:00 . . .

This is where a really high percentage of AG triathletes miss the boat! (Dan, I am not picking on you and this is not directed at you personally.  It is intended in a broad, general sense).

I hear it all the time, "The swim is only 10% of my race so I am not going to spend more than 10% of my time training for that little bit of my race day," or something very similar - basically discounting the importance of the swim.  What those triathletes are missing however is that the swim isn't necessarily about the time.  It is about setting yourself up for the rest of the day.  Whether a triathlete is trying to go from 2:00 -> 1:45 per 100 or 1:30 -> 1:15 per 100 is really not that important.  What matters is being able to swim aerobically and efficiently.  You simply are not going to be able to do that swimming a couple of 30-minute workouts per week (or some other ridiculously low volume mandated by 10% of your training time).  Sorry, isn't going to happen.

Along the same lines, the successful, competitive triathletes ALL are doing flip-turns in the pool.  EVERY one of them.  Sorry, you may not like to hear that, but there it is.  Competitive triathletes can SWIM.  They don't beat the water into submission, they are smooth, efficient, and graceful in the water, not to mention fast by triathlon standards (a few are even fast by swimming standards).  Flip-turns just happen to be a part of smooth, efficient and graceful swimming.  Sorry, that is just the way it is.  Look at those that don't do flip-turns.  What trait do almost all of them share?  It isn't smooth, efficient, and graceful swimming, rather they tend to have sub-standard technique and struggle with the swim.

It comes down to this:  Do you want to complete a triathlon or do you want to compete in a triathlon.  The Jeep Cherokee analogy is a wonderful analogy in that the Jeep can definitely complete a triathlon, but it will never compete in a triathlon.

So, continue to train with insufficient volume and continue to discount the value of flip-turns.  You will continue to be anaerobic during your swim and come out of the water baked and often forfeit the opportunity to have a good race day - but, yeah, you may complete your triathlon.  OR, increase the importance of swim training, do what swimmers do to improve (uh oh, the means learning to flip-turn), stay aerobic in the water on race day and compete in your triathlon.

The choice is yours.

I said it before, but this is an overreaching statement.  There are competitive triathletes (KQ) who are not very good swimmers, and those that don't flip turn.

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that it pays to be the best athlete you can be in each of the three discplines, and to train to achieve that, however some individuals through time, desire, whatever, are going to be sub par in one discipline but excel in the other two and remain competitive.

How many sub 2hr Olympic guys are there that are poor swimmers?

answer: none



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Flip Turns? Pages: 1 2

Started by jclem
Views: 1885 Posts: 28

2005-05-13 6:29 PM David_Zen

somebody teach me flip turns :(

Started by aliengin
Views: 1249 Posts: 10

2005-01-12 12:06 PM kimj81

Flip turn help please

Started by ride_like_u_stole_it
Views: 1668 Posts: 21

2005-01-05 5:50 PM Angie

Flip Turn video clip?

Started by CptnJackSparrow
Views: 1579 Posts: 16

2004-12-19 12:26 PM trilover

Flip Turns Pages: 1 2

Started by azwaterbaby
Views: 3660 Posts: 33

2009-07-20 5:39 PM Bioteknik
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