Marathon Training, How many days per week

I haven't run a full mary yet.. but im sure training outlook is the same..

intially (first couple months..) 5 days running 1 day cross training(long swim or ride).. purely volume with the intent.

once i achieved that, tweeked the plan: on shortly and recovery runs make it a brick.. ride or swim.. and long run on weekend was solo..

so it would be.. 3 bricks, 1 cross train, 1 prelim long run, and 1 long run

it has worked for me.. keeps it interesting..

Depends on your marathon goal, if it's at all ambitious (i.e., close to your potential) then replacing a run with a bike will do nothing to get you there.

Higdon's plans are good, thousands use them for success. I prefer Pfitzinger's plans in Advanced Marathoning, which should be a must read regardless.

This is my second, and will probably be my last marathon, so I'd like to make it a good one.  I am looking for a sub 4:15 with an eye on 4:00.

So how does less running get you to that goal?

Bingo.

It doesn't, except to keep me active on my days off.

I also have two HIM's next summer.  (Eagleman in June and Savageman September).  I don't want to put the bike completely on the back burner with those in the works.

Hopefully more cross training will keep my left achilles under check.  From an old squash injury, it is prone to swelling and pain during overuse, which a marathon is by definition.

Not sure how less running keeps you active on your days off.

As far as putting the bike on the back burner, that's hardly necessary if you're running five days a week. There's a little sefcret among triathlete's called "two-a-days." Run in the morning, bike in the evening: it's not just an option, it's a way of life!

Battling the old achilles myself.

When I was doing marathons, I ran 5 days a week. No cross training.


My best was a 3:17 when I was 40...good enough to get me to Boston, which was my goal.

JC

When I was training for a goal time in the marathon I put everything else on the back burner and just ran. Unless your HIM races are within a couple of months after your marathon, maybe you should consider that as well. Regardless, don't reduce the number of runs you're doing. The best way to get better at running - is to run. Personally I didn't find plans like the one you're using to be tremendously helpful for having a strong marathon. IMO, it's too light on volume to build the kind of endurance needed to carry a strong pace in the late miles. Cutting runs out of a plan that is already light will almost certainly result in a sufferfest in the late miles.

The people that seem to do reasonably well with the Higdon type plan often have a very solid base to start with. For example - many years of running 30+ miles/week.

JMHO - YMMV

Drop the Intermediate plan.  Do a Beginner one.  You've averaged about 10 or so miles per week over the past several months.  You've run 4 times in the past 3 weeks (i.e., you are not "on Week 3").

My success in training for a marathon has come from running consistently for a long time and then GRADUALLY ramping up the mileage during the marathon-specific training while letting biking and swimming fall to the back-burner of priorities.  I have a great plan for me.  It would be a terrible plan for you.

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and just like john, i have a running plan (not for a marathon, but totals that would put most people past their marathon goals), that will work well for me, but prob not for you, or many others.

it has me running 6 days a week most weeks, with some of the higher milage weeks (45-60 miles) doing 1-3x two a day runs to break stuff up a bit. one day off a week, and every 5th week two days off. for me, i have found regardless of the mileage i have run (to this point), that having a day off a week and having a few doubles works better than spreading the running out more over 7 days.

and having a few double days is easier and gets my milage up and leaves me feeling better than having a longer long run. longest i have in there is 16 miles i think. and only a few of those.
i've been working on and refining this for a week or so now, and am close to being done. this is of course a guide only though, if things are feeling like i need to back off i will, this is simply an outline of where i want it to go.
YMMV

That's about hat I'm doing right now. I'm training for the RNR AZ marathon in january, but want to keep up my tri fitness. If you want to get better at running, run more and vary your workouts.

I replaced some runs with bikes on my Higdon marathon plan, but only because I injured my feet 5 weeks before the race. I would have never skipped or replaced ANY runs if I hadn't have been forced to. Especially not if I was going for a goal time (mine was my first, thus "just finish" was my goal).

I agree with 2-a-days if you are insistant on incorporating more riding and are serious about your 4:15 goal time.

I've run my last two marathons (both PRs, both solidly sub-4) on basically 3 or 4 runs a week, plus 3 or 4 rides and 1 or 2 swims.  Core of my training is pretty much always the same:  1 general aerobic run, 1 tempo run or interval session, 1 long run on the weekend.  At peak phase, I've been known to work in one more run...sometimes it's a brick run off a short bike workout, other times I'll swap out one bike session for the added run.  I've found no real difference between when I did my first mary off 7 days a week running (40 mpw) vs. 3-4 days of running with a more careful focus on the length and timing of my long runs.  This routine allowed me to do LA Marathon 3 weeks after finishing Wildflower this year (with a PR of 3:42).

I combined my Hal Higdon Plan with my HIM plan.  That automatically gets me my long run, my intermediate run, and one of the short runs in.  I usually skip the other short run that Hal calls for becuase of all the other training I do.

EAT:  BTW, my goal is to finish the marathon strong as this will be my first stand alone marathon.  I'm shooting for sub 4 hours...  That's just me...

Edited by Aikidoman 2009-09-21 12:49 PM

I'm going to agree with JohnyKay on this.  I haven't done a full mary, but just looking at the OPs logs, it's pretty apparent the volume is a considerable jump on the legs, compounded by the fact he already has some issues with the achilles.

Overall, it looks like there is a decent amount of swimming in there, some biking and hardly any running the past 6 weeks.  Jumping to 30mpw all the sudden is going to be reaching and by the end of the 2nd week into the 3rd your legs might start hating you.  Not saying it isn't doable, it will just be pushing your luck in my opinion.  I'm horrible at following the 10% rule myself... good luck though on what you end up doing.  I'm interested to see how it works out for you because I'm on a mission to improve my run so I have vengence next year on my HIM run split from this year...

FWIW, I would probably change plans or opt a run out like you are thinking...at least for the first few weeks until you start getting more of a base.

I hate being a slow runner.  After t2 at nations, I was ~ top 30% AG.  After the run, ~ top 45% AG.  That means that 15% of the AG passed me, and a heckuva lot of people gained on me on the last leg.

I appreciate all of the feedback.

Note: I am doing my long runs at a really slow 10:00+ M/M pace with walk breaks every 4 minutes.  I will also keep the speedwork out of the week until I can run without issues with the achilles.

Most of my running is in the 9:40-10:00 pace range (w/o walk breaks). I'll only do speedwork as part of a structured plan. Yet I don't consider myself to be a "slow runner."

As others have hinted, what you need if you want to improve is more volume. As in raise your weekly volume to be equivalent to what you now do in a month.

Why not allow your body to heal fully before you ramp up your run mileage and potentially wreck a long part of your season next year? Are you wanting to be a Marathoner or Triathlete? I see over and over folks don't allow injuries to fully heal and instead of taking off 3-4 weeks when it first started they keep pushing and can then later have to take 6 months off.

I struggled with achillies issues for 7 months and it went on and off for additional 12 months.

Once I was healed up and took 4 weeks off of running after last year's tri season to fully recover, I started slowly ramping up my volume and frequency and found with more running I didn't have any injury issues this season which was the first injury free run season in awhile. But again I'm taking 4 weeks off running to allow my body to heal, recover and let my mind recharge. I want to run more this off season but it was suggested I run more without aiming for a Marathon as it will take racing pressure off, no lost time tapering and recovering, and really my goal is to become a better runner not to complete a Marathon..do those only in Ironman races, so I thought that was a good plan for me off season.

pga_mike:

You and I have the exact same goals.  I'm also in training for my 2nd marathon and going for a 4:15, dreaming of 4:00.  

What race will you be running?  I'm doing Vegas in December.  

As to the_bear and others, less running can help by giving your body the rest it needs.  And cross training can help build cardio strength, without the pounding of running.

Last months Runner's world said that replacing runs with cycling had no negative effect on performance.  

My first marathon was done running 3x week.  For Vegas, I'm training by running 3x week and cycling 3x week.  

I'd make a couple of suggestions.  But, I'm not an expert.

1) Like you're thinking, replace at least one of your runs, maybe 2 with cycling.

2) The long runs seem to be important (along with rest).  Why are you stopping at 20miles?  22mi might be a better choice for your final long run.

2 cents.

I'm about to run my second marathon which should be a sub-4.  I voted for 5 days running, 1 day cross.  I just bought a bike but have no experience riding.  I was thinking of riding a bit and running less in my taper but I think I won't do it.  As a new rider, too much can go wrong.  Obviously you've got riding experience so I think you could replace a run or two a week with a ride.  I would definitely run your longest runs and your tempo runs.