SBR "U" (Page 31)

Originally posted by BrotherTri

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by TankBoy

Originally posted by BrotherTri

Originally posted by ChrisM16 mile run with 1750' of climbing. Mary training back on track

Nice Chris! Good to hear that you are back. That type of climbing will be good for Alcatraz as well.

seriously Chris - now THAT is a comeback! How is it holding up today?

my first race of the year is also in the books: 11.5 mile trail race, 1580' of vertical (according to Garmin, but who really knows...) and a spot-on -6:00 PR (6:01 to be exact) from last year, when I thought I ran a really well-executed race at the edge of my abilities at the time. This time around I basically executed the same race plan as last year: ease in to the first 4 miles, murder every downhill and recover the ups just a little (basically as neutral a VI as possible, in bike terms) and then Inthe last 4 miles go for broke. It seems to have paid off well As I managed a 16th OA, which is fairly good as this is a very competitive regional race that sells out every year in less than 10 minutes from going live. With about a mile or so to go my left calf started to flake out on me, and cramped hard just as I crossed the finish line. So the calf is still really sore today (channeling some of Chris' miracle healing powers) but other than that I have actually recovered fairly quickly and was able to make it through a set of somewhat challenging overgear intervals this morning.

Bike or running? 

If it's running, I really struggle with the "murder the downhills" part. Any tips?

My coach said that I have improved greatly in terms of form (not over-striding, keeping hands and knees low) I'm just not fast at doing it. 

Adrienne it was a trail run. I also just figured he ran 6 minutes faster not 6 hours. Man I feel like a dumoss. Sorry for doubting your Rusty.....

Haha well, we were at least a little confused together. Whenever I read something I just assume it's running , but I saw the bolded part about "bike terms" and wasn't sure. 

Originally posted by BrotherTri

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by TankBoy

Originally posted by BrotherTri

Originally posted by ChrisM16 mile run with 1750' of climbing. Mary training back on track

Nice Chris! Good to hear that you are back. That type of climbing will be good for Alcatraz as well.

seriously Chris - now THAT is a comeback! How is it holding up today?

my first race of the year is also in the books: 11.5 mile trail race, 1580' of vertical (according to Garmin, but who really knows...) and a spot-on -6:00 PR (6:01 to be exact) from last year, when I thought I ran a really well-executed race at the edge of my abilities at the time. This time around I basically executed the same race plan as last year: ease in to the first 4 miles, murder every downhill and recover the ups just a little (basically as neutral a VI as possible, in bike terms) and then Inthe last 4 miles go for broke. It seems to have paid off well As I managed a 16th OA, which is fairly good as this is a very competitive regional race that sells out every year in less than 10 minutes from going live. With about a mile or so to go my left calf started to flake out on me, and cramped hard just as I crossed the finish line. So the calf is still really sore today (channeling some of Chris' miracle healing powers) but other than that I have actually recovered fairly quickly and was able to make it through a set of somewhat challenging overgear intervals this morning.

Bike or running? 

If it's running, I really struggle with the "murder the downhills" part. Any tips?

My coach said that I have improved greatly in terms of form (not over-striding, keeping hands and knees low) I'm just not fast at doing it. 

Adrienne it was a trail run. I also just figured he ran 6 minutes faster not 6 hours. Man I feel like a dumoss. Sorry for doubting your Rusty.....

Ha-ha - you will never, ever catch me running 6 hours ever again. Ever. Yes - trail run - thanks for the kudos all. 

Adrienne - you basically just have to sacrifice your quads, lean forward, and just fall down the hill, turning your legs over as fast you you can just on the edge of cartwheeling head-over-heels. Stay off the brakes/heels and get on your toes. I get the "keep your knees low" part, but no way i could keep my hands low - I actually get them up and launch down the hill kind of leading with my chest. My left hand/arm is usually up and out making smallish circles, while for some reason my right arm/hand makes gigantic windmills. All-in-all it is a recipe for getting hurt really bad probably, but by conserving energy on the uphills early on (and not expending any by braking on the downhills) it seems like it leave a lot in the tank to really charge late in a long race, just when many others have popped.

*Edited to add - yeah, I figure the bike reference was what threw you Adrienne - training on the bike with a power meter will hammer home the idea of even pacing on the ups and downs (maintaining an even Variability Index, or VI) especially for us little folk on long efforts. It has carried over into running for me, especially in trail racing, but seems to be lost on a lot of others - very often you see racers hammer the uphills and then recover the downs, which actually means they are expending a lot of energy by braking. I flip that, so wind up yo-yoing folks a few times before finally getting away. 

Originally posted by TankBoy

Originally posted by BrotherTri

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by TankBoy

Originally posted by BrotherTri

Originally posted by ChrisM16 mile run with 1750' of climbing. Mary training back on track

Nice Chris! Good to hear that you are back. That type of climbing will be good for Alcatraz as well.

seriously Chris - now THAT is a comeback! How is it holding up today?

my first race of the year is also in the books: 11.5 mile trail race, 1580' of vertical (according to Garmin, but who really knows...) and a spot-on -6:00 PR (6:01 to be exact) from last year, when I thought I ran a really well-executed race at the edge of my abilities at the time. This time around I basically executed the same race plan as last year: ease in to the first 4 miles, murder every downhill and recover the ups just a little (basically as neutral a VI as possible, in bike terms) and then Inthe last 4 miles go for broke. It seems to have paid off well As I managed a 16th OA, which is fairly good as this is a very competitive regional race that sells out every year in less than 10 minutes from going live. With about a mile or so to go my left calf started to flake out on me, and cramped hard just as I crossed the finish line. So the calf is still really sore today (channeling some of Chris' miracle healing powers) but other than that I have actually recovered fairly quickly and was able to make it through a set of somewhat challenging overgear intervals this morning.

Bike or running? 

If it's running, I really struggle with the "murder the downhills" part. Any tips?

My coach said that I have improved greatly in terms of form (not over-striding, keeping hands and knees low) I'm just not fast at doing it. 

Adrienne it was a trail run. I also just figured he ran 6 minutes faster not 6 hours. Man I feel like a dumoss. Sorry for doubting your Rusty.....

Ha-ha - you will never, ever catch me running 6 hours ever again. Ever. Yes - trail run - thanks for the kudos all. 

Adrienne - you basically just have to sacrifice your quads, lean forward, and just fall down the hill, turning your legs over as fast you you can just on the edge of cartwheeling head-over-heels. Stay off the brakes/heels and get on your toes. I get the "keep your knees low" part, but no way i could keep my hands low - I actually get them up and launch down the hill kind of leading with my chest. My left hand/arm is usually up and out making smallish circles, while for some reason my right arm/hand makes gigantic windmills. All-in-all it is a recipe for getting hurt really bad probably, but by conserving energy on the uphills early on (and not expending any by braking on the downhills) it seems like it leave a lot in the tank to really charge late in a long race, just when many others have popped.

*Edited to add - yeah, I figure the bike reference was what threw you Adrienne - training on the bike with a power meter will hammer home the idea of even pacing on the ups and downs (maintaining an even Variability Index, or VI) especially for us little folk on long efforts. It has carried over into running for me, especially in trail racing, but seems to be lost on a lot of others - very often you see racers hammer the uphills and then recover the downs, which actually means they are expending a lot of energy by braking. I flip that, so wind up yo-yoing folks a few times before finally getting away. 

I work with that strategy as well, sort of, especially because I am strong on the uphills. I just try and relax and stay steady on the ups (recovering) and then float the downs...but the floating needs some help. I do attack the ups when I have an opportunity to pass though. 

So circles and windmills eh? Good thing they don't tend to take race photos on the trails

I very well could get onto my toes more. I'll have to experiment a little as I start the trail series. 

If you're talking about James redoing his 5' test...if he did test higher, his CP would actually decrease.  

But after seeing his 2x40' workout, I think his recent 20' test might be soft too...especially considering they were only 2 days apart.  Maybe James isn't that far off from 300w for an IM?

Which is also, IMO, tough

Originally posted by BrotherTri

Originally posted by ChrisM

? Or 75% of 300w = 225w. ?

Which is also, IMO, tough

Yeah that's what I think......because there is a little run after. Marc had mention raising my Vo2 max for the bike, with my sub hour swim and a 4hr Marathon. That's what I am focusing on and hope I am not chasing a rabbit. Maybe Fred. I'll test the 5' and 20' again in about a month. Saturdays bike is Vo2 so I need to comm up with something using the new zone. Man that is going to HURT bad. I don't mind a fail but a lot of fails is kind of a bummer. Today was not one of those days. I also got my 66th 100/100 run in a 10k tempo/Z4 and a good effort for the day. btw Jason will never let that 300w go Marc.......

Marc...I'm just poking fun at James from way back when he first started getting into power.  

James...yeah...don't worry about testing so much.  As mentioned earlier, you can use you workout results as little pieces of the puzzle that work just as well as testing.  You just need more data and experience to be able to identify when your power numbers are rising (or falling) without actually testing.  It will come.

They both could be, he put that workout up after my comment. The more he does, the more it seems like he's slacking! 

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by TankBoy

Originally posted by BrotherTri

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by TankBoy

Originally posted by BrotherTri

Originally posted by ChrisM16 mile run with 1750' of climbing. Mary training back on track

Nice Chris! Good to hear that you are back. That type of climbing will be good for Alcatraz as well.

seriously Chris - now THAT is a comeback! How is it holding up today?

my first race of the year is also in the books: 11.5 mile trail race, 1580' of vertical (according to Garmin, but who really knows...) and a spot-on -6:00 PR (6:01 to be exact) from last year, when I thought I ran a really well-executed race at the edge of my abilities at the time. This time around I basically executed the same race plan as last year: ease in to the first 4 miles, murder every downhill and recover the ups just a little (basically as neutral a VI as possible, in bike terms) and then Inthe last 4 miles go for broke. It seems to have paid off well As I managed a 16th OA, which is fairly good as this is a very competitive regional race that sells out every year in less than 10 minutes from going live. With about a mile or so to go my left calf started to flake out on me, and cramped hard just as I crossed the finish line. So the calf is still really sore today (channeling some of Chris' miracle healing powers) but other than that I have actually recovered fairly quickly and was able to make it through a set of somewhat challenging overgear intervals this morning.

Bike or running? 

If it's running, I really struggle with the "murder the downhills" part. Any tips?

My coach said that I have improved greatly in terms of form (not over-striding, keeping hands and knees low) I'm just not fast at doing it. 

Adrienne it was a trail run. I also just figured he ran 6 minutes faster not 6 hours. Man I feel like a dumoss. Sorry for doubting your Rusty.....

Ha-ha - you will never, ever catch me running 6 hours ever again. Ever. Yes - trail run - thanks for the kudos all. 

Adrienne - you basically just have to sacrifice your quads, lean forward, and just fall down the hill, turning your legs over as fast you you can just on the edge of cartwheeling head-over-heels. Stay off the brakes/heels and get on your toes. I get the "keep your knees low" part, but no way i could keep my hands low - I actually get them up and launch down the hill kind of leading with my chest. My left hand/arm is usually up and out making smallish circles, while for some reason my right arm/hand makes gigantic windmills. All-in-all it is a recipe for getting hurt really bad probably, but by conserving energy on the uphills early on (and not expending any by braking on the downhills) it seems like it leave a lot in the tank to really charge late in a long race, just when many others have popped.

*Edited to add - yeah, I figure the bike reference was what threw you Adrienne - training on the bike with a power meter will hammer home the idea of even pacing on the ups and downs (maintaining an even Variability Index, or VI) especially for us little folk on long efforts. It has carried over into running for me, especially in trail racing, but seems to be lost on a lot of others - very often you see racers hammer the uphills and then recover the downs, which actually means they are expending a lot of energy by braking. I flip that, so wind up yo-yoing folks a few times before finally getting away. 

I work with that strategy as well, sort of, especially because I am strong on the uphills. I just try and relax and stay steady on the ups (recovering) and then float the downs...but the floating needs some help. I do attack the ups when I have an opportunity to pass though. 

So circles and windmills eh? Good thing they don't tend to take race photos on the trails

I very well could get onto my toes more. I'll have to experiment a little as I start the trail series. 

What type of hill are you looking at? Lower grade, like up to just a few percent, then I lean in like Rusty does and basically just run down it but going faster. I still keep the quick & light feet idea going and a lot of things work themselves out. The float isn't necessarily a problem, so long as it doesn't lead to overstriding (and the braking). That's where the quick & light helps to guide me. I still tend to keep my arms in though.

As the hills get steeper, I think the best way I've seen put it was to think more like going down stairs. If it's on a more technical trail you'll have to learn how to read and react quickly to changing stride lengths. And get a feel for when to keep it short and when to bound some. Really need a feel for maintaining momentum and knowing your ability.

I work on the quick feet part on some of the down hills. Not really increasing stride length much at all, and going much quicker with the steps. Helps to develop for when I need it and develops some headroom for more normal pacing. Maybe not too different from some fast cadence on the bike?

From watching other trail runner vids, arms tend to come out some as needed for balance (falling is never good!), but tend to stay semi-close to the body most of the time. Like elbows coming up and out. Hands coming way wide seems to be from a rather tricky spot. It's another balancing act as having your arms very wide can take more energy and makes it harder to leverage your stride against. But as said before, falling is never good.

Okay, so I finally buckled down and did some bike testing this week -- 5' test on Tuesday and 20' test this morning.  The results were not pretty, but hopefully with some structured bike training, I can get back to where I was last year.

Nice work Nicole, I'm betting you see your power come back quickly.

Marc - I honestly haven't had any time to even look at it, but here is DC Rainmaker's review: http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2014/09/bloodless-lactate-threshold.html

I have the "Multisport Edition" which does both Running and Cycling. The Cycling protocol asks the following questions:

1. What is your conversational power?
2. What is your current 40k power?
3. Consecutive months of training?
4. How many days of week do you train?
5. How many miles do you log per week?

The responses to the assessment questions generate the protocol for the test. My responses generated the following protocol (The run is similarly structured, but uses pace rather than power):

3 minutes @ 80w
3 minutes @ 100w
3 minutes @ 120w
3 minutes @ 140w
3 minutes @ 160w
3 minutes @ 180w
3 minutes @ 200w
3 minutes @ 220w
3 minutes @ 240w
>ANTICIPATED THRESHOLD ZONE<
3 minutes @ 260w
3 minutes @ 280w
3 minutes @ 300w (yeah, right!)

Both the bike and the run assessment are performed on a trainer or treadmill.

I too am interested in finding out if it produces any reliable/useful information, but won't be surprised if it winds up in my big box of "useless electronic gadgets."

Nice job, Nicole - I am betting you get back quickly and blow through your numbers from last year.

Just watched the first few minutes of that - looks great. I am going to bookmark it for my next trainer ride. Maybe I'll watch it during an upcoming LT test - ha-ha!

Awesome, thanks for all the feedback. I bet focusing on quick turnover is going to be key. I think that may be a huge "opportunity" in my running.

Often on the track if I am racing or maybe struggling to keep up in a workout when I feel I am going as hard as I can go on a given rep I turn my focus to increasing my cadence and seem to find another gear to real them in...an easier one, too. 

Rusty, just so I'm visualizing it properly, is this what you look like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-IVhJLD0sQ

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I had a really interesting observation last night. 

Our workout was 6 x 1200 at a little slower than 5K pace last night with 2' rest in between.

6 x 1200 is a workout most of us balk at (actually, it's usually 5 x 1200) because it takes such great pacing and endurance to execute well. 

BUT last week we had done 2 x 1500 at 3K pace, which is much faster than our coach ever allows us/prescribes (for any sustained amount of time anyway.) 

Interestingly though, I think that workout provided such a great psychological stimulus that a 1200 which is shorter and ran at a slower pace seemed really doable. I just had to not think about the fact there were 6 of them. 

I'm sure there was some physiological adaptations made last week but I really felt the gains were psychological. I don't think I have given enough credit to just how important that part is in racing and training. 

HAHA!!! Yessss. I will begin the implementation of this into my running immediately. 

I had more windmilling in mind.

I couldn't agree more with this.  It's always difficult mentally (for me at least) to put myself into a pain area, but doing something that really really hurts, makes the workouts that only really hurt not seem too bad at all.