Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) (Page 4)
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2014-02-25 7:07 PM in reply to: yazmaster |
928 | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Good personal coaching would cost more than I am willing to pay. I've seen too many people with coaches doing things I wouldn't want to do or that I think puts them at risk. |
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2014-02-25 7:21 PM in reply to: #4955099 |
Member 111 Spring/Woodlands Area | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Couldn't vote on my phone...for me it's a combination of expense and I've got the expertise, so why pay someone else to do it? I do think it is key for self-coached athletes to educate themselves adequately for their current or desired level of competition, including at least rudimentary exercise physiology to be able to sort through the crap. Optimizing results is much more difficult than people realize. |
2014-02-25 9:41 PM in reply to: msteiner |
Master 2563 University Park, MD | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Originally posted by msteiner The engineer in me enjoys learning the technical components to developing a training plan. Figuring out what makes me faster and more effective in training is part of the fun. ^^^ This. Except I'm not an engineer. So I break more easily. |
2014-02-25 10:18 PM in reply to: colinphillips |
Seattle | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) One more thing I thought of - I'm relatively new and might have a difficult time distinguishing the value in coaching vs natural progression in my abilities. Perhaps it would be better when experiencing a plateau? |
2014-02-25 11:16 PM in reply to: apglave |
Member 1293 Pearland,Tx | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Originally posted by apglave Couldn't vote on my phone...for me it's a combination of expense and I've got the expertise, so why pay someone else to do it? I do think it is key for self-coached athletes to educate themselves adequately for their current or desired level of competition, including at least rudimentary exercise physiology to be able to sort through the crap. Optimizing results is much more difficult than people realize. I agree Page |
2014-02-26 6:24 AM in reply to: DanielG |
13 | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Originally posted by DanielG I tried to add my own and it wouldn't let me. I'm in this for fun and not all that interested in a coach. Same for me. I'm doing triathlons for fun, to get fit and to stay fit. I'm just aiming to finish, and to beat my own previous results. I use pre-made plans and I just do my best with them |
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2014-02-26 8:23 AM in reply to: Asalzwed |
1053 | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Originally posted by Asalzwed One more thing I thought of - I'm relatively new and might have a difficult time distinguishing the value in coaching vs natural progression in my abilities. Perhaps it would be better when experiencing a plateau? This is one of my reasons. I keep getting faster doing what I am doing, so I'll just keep doing that for now. I generally PR in just about every race I enter. I guess I could get "faster faster," but my current progression includes a significant amount of learning, and I for now, I don't want a coach doing all my thinking for me, I want to do some of my own thinking. Expense is also partially an issue, I don't have "everything" gear wise, but am getting where I want to be, so once I level off and just have to replace a few things here and there, I will have more to spend. That said, as I get more into the sport, I am finding that I am spending more on race fees and travel/lodging expenses, so who knows. I absolutely see myself getting a coach in the not so distant future though. Through this site I am learning the value of good coaching. I am part of a mentor group right now, learning a great deal, and discovering the value of focused training and guidance that a coach can provide. And this is just in a group setting. |
2014-02-26 8:26 AM in reply to: jennifer_runs |
Champion 6503 NOVA - Ironic for an Endurance Athlete | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Originally posted by jennifer_runs Good personal coaching would cost more than I am willing to pay. I've seen too many people with coaches doing things I wouldn't want to do or that I think puts them at risk. I had a coach. I pretty much ignored him. I beat him by 52 minutes at IMCDA in 2011. I use BT friends as my barometer. |
2014-02-26 8:30 AM in reply to: pga_mike |
Extreme Veteran 2263 Ridgeland, Mississippi | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Originally posted by pga_mike Originally posted by jennifer_runs Good personal coaching would cost more than I am willing to pay. I've seen too many people with coaches doing things I wouldn't want to do or that I think puts them at risk. I had a coach. I pretty much ignored him. I beat him by 52 minutes at IMCDA in 2011. I use BT friends as my barometer. Now I will say that a good coach doesn't have to be a fast athlete. |
2014-02-26 8:40 AM in reply to: msteiner |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Originally posted by msteiner
Now I will say that a good coach doesn't have to be a fast athlete. A different discussion from this thread, but it you look at sports in general, many of the most successful coaches were not great athletes. Conversely, some great athletes have been terrible coaches. Mark
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2014-02-26 8:51 AM in reply to: RedCorvette |
New user 230 penticton | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Exactly, what ever performance a coach as done in his carreer dosnt necessarly translate into the proper training skils. There is one very easy element to look at when you want to hire a coach. it s very easy to find the right one. RESULTS...... your hiring someone to get you faster, make you reach your goal etc. Your not hiring someone to be your friend, to hold your hand and tell you that your pretty etc. It s a buisness association. There is nothing wrong with developping a special bound with a coach of course.... but ask yourself why you hire a coach. what i want to see from that coach. RESULTS ACROSS THE BOARD. does he get big improvement from his new athletes...his many season veterans, is pro athletes. Yes, if that coach already coach or work with some professional triathlete...that could be a good sign because professional are so high maintenance and drama queen.... if a coach is good at dealing with those...he will be good with the more mature and grounded age group crowd. so yes, coach that produce results are doing something write. This is when it could be good to associate yourself with them. You might learn a great bit. Ask reference, etc... That said, if you are in the early stage of your triathlon life...starting your first sprint, olympic distance, want to finish and just enjoy the process, i think a coach might be overrated. I would suggest joining a local tri club if at all possible. The learning start there with teamates around you. |
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2014-02-26 9:12 AM in reply to: marcag |
Alpharetta, Georgia | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Originally posted by marcag Here's an idea of what coaches should do : they should charge based on results. You mutually set a goal, you set a fee for meeting that goal, you make it, everyone is happy. You miss it, everyone loses. I doubt the coaches would like this :-) This is a super interesting concept that I didn't want to get lost on the previous page. |
2014-02-26 9:18 AM in reply to: 0 |
New user 230 penticton | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) I use a different approach, At Jonnyo Coaching, Results are guaranty or you are fired! Coaching professional athletes is mostly all on % of gain by the athletes. if the athlete perform, the coach make ok/good money. I like it and it sometimes take 2-3 season until all the ''investement'' pay off but the challenge is fun! obviously, this concept would not work for a age group athletes. A professional coach that make a living out of this need some kind of guaranty that he will get paid. a injury happening and it s over. Kind of like saying to doctor...you only get paid if you heal your patient. it aint that simple. Edited by jonnyo 2014-02-26 9:21 AM |
2014-02-26 9:27 AM in reply to: 0 |
1660 | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Originally posted by msteiner Originally posted by pga_mike Originally posted by jennifer_runs Good personal coaching would cost more than I am willing to pay. I've seen too many people with coaches doing things I wouldn't want to do or that I think puts them at risk. I had a coach. I pretty much ignored him. I beat him by 52 minutes at IMCDA in 2011. I use BT friends as my barometer. Now I will say that a good coach doesn't have to be a fast athlete.
For sure, this is true. However, I still would not discount the experience of a someone who knows what it's like to compete at a very high level in the sport. In music, you would never consider a middling performer capable of teaching someone with capability to reach their maximum or close to it. Practice has shown this as well. Triathlon is different, yes, but there are lessons learned and discipline to be followed that does count for something if they've 'walked the walk' before. As an AGer, I would never hire a coach who has not been faster than me at some point in their career, even if they were a great communicator. Not saying everyone should do this, but it's a guideline I would follow myself. (I realize that for top pros, this isn't possible necessarily.) Edited by yazmaster 2014-02-26 9:29 AM |
2014-02-26 9:35 AM in reply to: yazmaster |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Originally posted by yazmaster Originally posted by msteiner Originally posted by pga_mike Originally posted by jennifer_runs Good personal coaching would cost more than I am willing to pay. I've seen too many people with coaches doing things I wouldn't want to do or that I think puts them at risk. I had a coach. I pretty much ignored him. I beat him by 52 minutes at IMCDA in 2011. I use BT friends as my barometer. Now I will say that a good coach doesn't have to be a fast athlete.
For sure, this is true. However, I still would not discount the experience of a someone who knows what it's like to compete at a very high level in the sport. In music, you would never consider a middling performer capable of teaching someone with capability to reach their maximum or close to it. Practice has shown this as well. Triathlon is different, yes, but there are lessons learned and discipline to be followed that does count for something if they've 'walked the walk' before. As an AGer, I would never hire a coach who has not been faster than me at some point in their career, even if they were a great communicator. Not saying everyone should do this, but it's a guideline I would follow myself. (I realize that for top pros, this isn't possible necessarily.) That's ridiculous. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I disagree with the music analogy. I've known countless band teachers in HS that have molded and created performers exponentially better than they. I also know (from track and field experience) that a coach does not need the high level of skill or first hand competition experience to be wonderful. Think of how many Olympic coaches have been around forever and have never really been spectacular athletes themselves, but have coached gold medalists one after another. |
2014-02-26 9:41 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
Extreme Veteran 2263 Ridgeland, Mississippi | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Originally posted by Danno77 Originally posted by yazmaster That's ridiculous. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I disagree with the music analogy. I've known countless band teachers in HS that have molded and created performers exponentially better than they. I also know (from track and field experience) that a coach does not need the high level of skill or first hand competition experience to be wonderful. Think of how many Olympic coaches have been around forever and have never really been spectacular athletes themselves, but have coached gold medalists one after another. Originally posted by msteiner Originally posted by pga_mike Originally posted by jennifer_runs Good personal coaching would cost more than I am willing to pay. I've seen too many people with coaches doing things I wouldn't want to do or that I think puts them at risk. I had a coach. I pretty much ignored him. I beat him by 52 minutes at IMCDA in 2011. I use BT friends as my barometer. Now I will say that a good coach doesn't have to be a fast athlete.
For sure, this is true. However, I still would not discount the experience of a someone who knows what it's like to compete at a very high level in the sport. In music, you would never consider a middling performer capable of teaching someone with capability to reach their maximum or close to it. Practice has shown this as well. Triathlon is different, yes, but there are lessons learned and discipline to be followed that does count for something if they've 'walked the walk' before. As an AGer, I would never hire a coach who has not been faster than me at some point in their career, even if they were a great communicator. Not saying everyone should do this, but it's a guideline I would follow myself. (I realize that for top pros, this isn't possible necessarily.) Could Manny Pacquiao's coach ever beat Pac in a fight? You can know how to be a great athlete and simply lack the ability. |
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2014-02-26 9:42 AM in reply to: DanielG |
Veteran 629 Grapevine, TX | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) I want a coach. One like the ones they have on the pro circuit. One who is obsessed with making people better. But not too many people.... Who wants to take me all the way to Kona. I want a coach who's going to know me inside and out. I would pay real money for that. But first, I would like to "try before I buy" (pardon the pun!) |
2014-02-26 9:59 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
Extreme Veteran 933 Connecticut | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Originally posted by Danno77 That's ridiculous. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I disagree with the music analogy. I've known countless band teachers in HS that have molded and created performers exponentially better than they. I also know (from track and field experience) that a coach does not need the high level of skill or first hand competition experience to be wonderful. Think of how many Olympic coaches have been around forever and have never really been spectacular athletes themselves, but have coached gold medalists one after another. Agree, and actually music is a very good analogy for this. I *used* to be a professional musician, and had many many teachers who lacked the ability to play anything nearly as lyrical or technical as they could understand. I learned an awful lot about improvisation techniques from a solfege teacher who played classical flute and had never improvised a lick in her life. I doubt Brett Sutton could do half of what he has asked his athletes to do, he seems to have made out alright. |
2014-02-26 10:41 AM in reply to: 0 |
Master 2406 Bellevue, WA | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Here's another hassle with coaching (and teams): personal rivalry / animosity between coaches getting in the way of their athletes. The triathlon community in the Seattle area, especially Ironman, numbers in the low thousands, and a lot of people know each other. Here's the situation: coach A and coach B, who know each other from past associations, past teams, etc, clearly have fairly low opinions of each other. Not so obvious as trash talking, but it's clear. If you're an athlete of coach A, but going to go for a weekend ride with your friends who are coached by coach B, then your ride conversation is what? Defending "your" coach? Debating who is "right"? Discussing how coach A and coach B should just get along? Shut up and ride? You get that crap from teams, too. There was a team in Seattle that had a falling out with a team member who started a "rival" team on the Eastside. So a few years pass, and you join the Eastside team, unaware that Seattle team members have "bad blood" with the Eastside team leader. You show up in the Eastside kit at some event, and there are five folks from the Seattle team, and you try to have a little conversation but get the cold shoulder. You don't even know these people, but you're wearing the "wrong" kit so they won't talk to you? Cool story, bro, right? Edited by brucemorgan 2014-02-26 10:43 AM |
2014-02-26 11:08 AM in reply to: 0 |
1660 | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Originally posted by Danno77 Originally posted by yazmaster That's ridiculous. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I disagree with the music analogy. I've known countless band teachers in HS that have molded and created performers exponentially better than they. I also know (from track and field experience) that a coach does not need the high level of skill or first hand competition experience to be wonderful. Think of how many Olympic coaches have been around forever and have never really been spectacular athletes themselves, but have coached gold medalists one after another. Originally posted by msteiner Originally posted by pga_mike Originally posted by jennifer_runs Good personal coaching would cost more than I am willing to pay. I've seen too many people with coaches doing things I wouldn't want to do or that I think puts them at risk. I had a coach. I pretty much ignored him. I beat him by 52 minutes at IMCDA in 2011. I use BT friends as my barometer. Now I will say that a good coach doesn't have to be a fast athlete.
For sure, this is true. However, I still would not discount the experience of a someone who knows what it's like to compete at a very high level in the sport. In music, you would never consider a middling performer capable of teaching someone with capability to reach their maximum or close to it. Practice has shown this as well. Triathlon is different, yes, but there are lessons learned and discipline to be followed that does count for something if they've 'walked the walk' before. As an AGer, I would never hire a coach who has not been faster than me at some point in their career, even if they were a great communicator. Not saying everyone should do this, but it's a guideline I would follow myself. (I realize that for top pros, this isn't possible necessarily.)
I feel that coaching at the elite level differs greatly from the AGer level. Different priorities, different emphasis.
As an AGer, I will stand by my opinion (and yes many will disagree) that I would not seek out a coach who was not at least as fast as I was in triathlon.
Part of this is also that I'm not that fast - fast enough to podium in M35 fairly regularly, but that's a pretty low bar of entry for an 'expert' in my opinion, and it seems perfectly reasonable to expect that ones coach should have at least had enough experience and ability to contend for an AG podium regularly. Seriously, what level of expertise are you paying for otherwise, if they'er not even able to podium at local races?
Your opinion may differ, and I'm 100% ok with that. Edited by yazmaster 2014-02-26 11:09 AM |
2014-02-26 11:10 AM in reply to: yazmaster |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Originally posted by yazmaster I feel that coaching at the elite level differs greatly from the AGer level. Different priorities, different emphasis.
As an AGer, I will stand by my opinion (and yes many will disagree) that I would not seek out a coach who was not at least as fast as I was in triathlon.
Part of this is also that I'm not that fast - fast enough to podium in M35 fairly regularly, but that's a pretty low bar of entry for an 'expert' in my opinion, and it seems perfectly reasonable to expect that ones coach should have at least had enough experience and ability to contend for an AG podium regularly.
Your opinion may differ, and I'm 100% ok with that. What if your coach is 60 years old, or a female. Should they still be faster than you? |
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2014-02-26 11:30 AM in reply to: avsie2013 |
Member 763 | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Originally posted by avsie2013 Originally posted by DanielG I tried to add my own and it wouldn't let me. I'm in this for fun and not all that interested in a coach. Same for me. I'm doing triathlons for fun, to get fit and to stay fit. I'm just aiming to finish, and to beat my own previous results. I use pre-made plans and I just do my best with them x3 - no interest in a coach. I do tris for fun and to stay in shape. If I had a coach, doing tris would probably stop being fun for me - probably would seems like a second job...and I don't need another boss. |
2014-02-26 11:37 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
1660 | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by yazmaster I feel that coaching at the elite level differs greatly from the AGer level. Different priorities, different emphasis.
As an AGer, I will stand by my opinion (and yes many will disagree) that I would not seek out a coach who was not at least as fast as I was in triathlon.
Part of this is also that I'm not that fast - fast enough to podium in M35 fairly regularly, but that's a pretty low bar of entry for an 'expert' in my opinion, and it seems perfectly reasonable to expect that ones coach should have at least had enough experience and ability to contend for an AG podium regularly.
Your opinion may differ, and I'm 100% ok with that. What if your coach is 60 years old, or a female. Should they still be faster than you?
I intentionally wrote "was not at least as fast as I was".
I wrote it this way to specifically make the case that I expect the coach to have HAD achieved that level of performance or equal equivalent at some point in their life. I do not expect them that very moment to be able to go out and beat me if the were 30 years older, or other changes. But I would have expected them to have reached that level at some point in their triathlon career, to be at least contending for your AG podium regularly in regional races. Note that I'd consider a F60 KQer who might have much slower HIM/Oly times than me, to be perfectly qualified as their achievement at their age of KQ is at that level and beyond. |
2014-02-26 12:16 PM in reply to: jonnyo |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Originally posted by jonnyo I use a different approach, At Jonnyo Coaching, Results are guaranty or you are fired! Coaching professional athletes is mostly all on % of gain by the athletes. if the athlete perform, the coach make ok/good money. I like it and it sometimes take 2-3 season until all the ''investement'' pay off but the challenge is fun! obviously, this concept would not work for a age group athletes. A professional coach that make a living out of this need some kind of guaranty that he will get paid. a injury happening and it s over. Kind of like saying to doctor...you only get paid if you heal your patient. it aint that simple. It would be great to see such a model applied to AGer and I don't see why it can't. it is no riskier than a pro The numbers I am quoting are fictitious of course I come to you and say I am 50 y/o, VDOT of 53, watts/kg of 3.8, 1:35/100m CSS. I am willing to invest 20 hours per week. I will pay you a nominal monthly fee (let's say $100) and if you get me to Kona you get a bonus of $5000. You do the math, figure I need a 55 VDOT, 4 w/kg and 1:33/100m css based on historical results. Can you get me there ? Of course there are other details you would consider in your assessment. If you truly believe in my potential to get there within 2 years, you would take this because it's $1200 x 2 years + $5000 = $7400 or more than $300 per month. You do your math, figure out how much you need to improve me, calculate the risk and counter. I can assess how much you believe I can make it and I feel we are in this together. Of course there has to be a way to guarantee payment if I do make it. Maybe there are interim payments if I hit 4w/kg on the way there or 55 VDOT. You can fire me at any time if you do not feel I am going to make it. Why can't this work ? Why can't the coach be paid based on results ? |
2014-02-26 12:23 PM in reply to: marcag |
1660 | Subject: RE: Why DONT you have a coach? (please vote) Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by jonnyo I use a different approach, At Jonnyo Coaching, Results are guaranty or you are fired! Coaching professional athletes is mostly all on % of gain by the athletes. if the athlete perform, the coach make ok/good money. I like it and it sometimes take 2-3 season until all the ''investement'' pay off but the challenge is fun! obviously, this concept would not work for a age group athletes. A professional coach that make a living out of this need some kind of guaranty that he will get paid. a injury happening and it s over. Kind of like saying to doctor...you only get paid if you heal your patient. it aint that simple. It would be great to see such a model applied to AGer and I don't see why it can't. it is no riskier than a pro The numbers I am quoting are fictitious of course I come to you and say I am 50 y/o, VDOT of 53, watts/kg of 3.8, 1:35/100m CSS. I am willing to invest 20 hours per week. I will pay you a nominal monthly fee (let's say $100) and if you get me to Kona you get a bonus of $5000. You do the math, figure I need a 55 VDOT, 4 w/kg and 1:33/100m css based on historical results. Can you get me there ? Of course there are other details you would consider in your assessment. If you truly believe in my potential to get there within 2 years, you would take this because it's $1200 x 2 years + $5000 = $7400 or more than $300 per month. You do your math, figure out how much you need to improve me, calculate the risk and counter. I can assess how much you believe I can make it and I feel we are in this together. Of course there has to be a way to guarantee payment if I do make it. Maybe there are interim payments if I hit 4w/kg on the way there or 55 VDOT. You can fire me at any time if you do not feel I am going to make it. Why can't this work ? Why can't the coach be paid based on results ?
To complicate that 'ideal' of coaching, you really have to compare against a legitimate standard. Not dissimilar from stock returns - your actively managed mutual fund may have returned 22% profits last year which sounds great - until you realize that the unmanaged SP500 index returned 30%, so you actually LOST money.
Comparing to a stock Pfitz or other stockprogram would be a good benchmark comparison! (I know there's no universally accepted on in tri, but doesn't mean one can't be made.) |
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Why the animosity toward Coaching and Coaches? Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 | |||
Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan | |||
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