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2014-02-07 1:40 PM
in reply to: JAYCT

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Subject: RE: Week 5
Originally posted by JAYCT

Says to take avg hrs per day and multiply by 50-75 depending on how intense you are. I'm inclined to seed it CTL=50 based on that. I'm not really running anymore for now (nothing meaningful).



But that assumes you are doing the 50TSS points per day, every day. Based on your hours per month, at a TSS of 60 per session, your CTL would be around 33 starting the year. I took your monthly hours, divide by 30 days, 60 TSS points per hour and put it in the CTL calculation. You ended up with 33.

In GC, when you look at your PMC chart, there is the ability to select a date range. Values are "Last 7 days", "Last 14 days"......see that ?
Then there is a little menu that you can click on the right side of that area. There is an option to "Add Season"

Give it a name such as "Since Jan 2014"
Enter a start date, say "Jan 1 2014"
Enter a start LTS which is the same as your CTL

You will then be able to show your PMC as of Jan 1 2014, with all your actual ride data incorporated in the PMC

Make sense ?

That was for Jason, now I feel compelled to explain PMC charts. This weekend :-)


2014-02-07 2:23 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Week 5
This is kind of like a PMC for newbies

The link Jason provided will give you a lot more info
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/what-is-the-performance-...


We have been doing our workouts and we have been looking at the TSS for individual workouts. Threshold workouts were roughly 80 or so TSS points.

Looking at TSS points for a single workout, while cool, is not nearly as useful as looking at how the accumulation of these TSS points measure our fitness, our fatigue and doing some planning such as planning a taper

So let’s start with one term, the CTL. Chronic training load. If you trained everyday at 50 TSS points, 7 days a week for a ‘long” period of time, your CTL or chronic training load would be at 50. Think of your CTL as kind of an average of your training load over a long period of time. Think of it as your fitness. It doesn’t come and go overnight, it’s accumulated over a long period of time. Lie on the couch for a week, you don't lose all your fitness.

But reality is we do a hard workout, maybe 90 TSS points, then we have two days off. We do a super long ride and accumulate 200 TSS points, we rest….an so on. The fatigue we feel is more the recent workouts, the ones in the last week. So there is a measure for the short term stress and it’s called ATL or acute training load. It’s more our “fatigue”. Lie on the couch for a week, our "fatigue" is gone.

If we stop training for a week, your ATL will drop abruptly. Your CTL will drop as well, but since it’s an average over a long period of time, it won’t drop as quickly. Our short term fatigue will go away and we will be fresher.

Think of a taper. You work for months and months, accumulate fitness and fatigue. You start a taper, lose a very small amount of fitness but gain a lot of freshness.

There is a measure for this “freshness” and it’s called a TSB : training stress balance. It’s basically your long term stress (CTL) – your short term stress (ATL). If you stop workout out, ATL goes to 0 and TSB goes up. For a race, the trick is for your fitness *CTL" to go down just a bit but your fatigue *ATL" to go away so you are fresh.

There is a chart in GC, Trainingpeaks, WKO and raceday that graph this progression of fitness (CTL), fatigue (ATL) and freshness (TSB). It’s called the PMC chart.

I showed on very early on in this group, but I don’t think people related to it because they didn’t relate to TSS. Now that you understand TSS you can better understand this chart. It’s 100% based on TSS, so if you don’t understand TSS, you won’t understand the PMC.

The problem with this chart is that to be valuable it needs data over a long period of time. We have only been accumulating data for 5 or 6 weeks. As Dr Chung mentioned in a earlier post, it’s best to seed this chart with a CTL value which we estimated at 30 for Jason on January 1st.


So before we go any further, see if you can follow the directions I gave Jason. Find the PMC chart. Find how to create a “season” starting January 1st. Set a starting CTL of say 20. With time this “seed” value will have less impact. We have been doing 200+ TSS per week, so you should see your CTL slowly rising. You should see your TSB, drop on the days you did workouts.

We will learn more about this, but since Jason brought it up, because I was on a train, why not start looking at it. Post your PMC if you can.

BTW, I just checked GC and they actually called it Coggan Acute Training Load and Coggan Training Stress Balance….

I wrote this quickly on the train. Don't hesitate to ask questions and we can try and attach pictures :-) But it would be great if everyone had their PMC.



Edited by marcag 2014-02-07 2:41 PM
2014-02-07 4:33 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Week 5
Marq,

You typed that while you were on the trainer! Wow, you got skills my man! Anyhow good stuff, I'll study up later, while NOT on the traiiner
2014-02-07 4:54 PM
in reply to: reecealan

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Subject: RE: Week 5
Week 5 in the books. Due to work had to skip Thresh #1, Thresh#2 was on trainer due to rain.

Todays Sweet spot ride outdoors felt great, about 1300 ft of elevation gain. 214NP and 162 TSS.

My race season is starting to shape up. First tri will possibly be a sprint in early March, then another sprint in April. The lakes here in Florida will be cold so I'm using those as cold water "warmups" for IM CDA in June.

Tom

2014-02-07 5:24 PM
in reply to: reecealan

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Subject: RE: Week 5
Originally posted by reecealan

Marq,

You typed that while you were on the trainer! Wow, you got skills my man! Anyhow good stuff, I'll study up later, while NOT on the traiiner


no no no....train, not trainer.....i would be sweating all over the keyboard otherwise :-)
2014-02-07 7:19 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Week 5

Originally posted by marcag Don't hesitate to ask questions and we can try and attach pictures :-) But it would be great if everyone had their PMC.

Here's how mine looks over the past couple of seasons - you can see how I peaked my training in 2012 compared to 2013, but now looking at the TSB I kind of blew it in preparation for a Sept HIM - dwindling training, etc.  Great learning about all this.  Pretty quantifiable how being sick impacted my ability to train and the resulting scores the past couple of months.





(PMC.JPG)



Attachments
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PMC.JPG (101KB - 5 downloads)


2014-02-07 8:02 PM
in reply to: 0

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Oakville
Subject: RE: Week 5

A week or so ago I downloaded all of my historical TrainerRoad workouts and imported into GC.  Here's my PMC.

As of today, my ATL is 38.2, CTL is 24.3 and my TSB is -13.9.

In March 2013 I was finishing off the Jorge plan and so I was pretty focused with the workouts, but didn't stay with it . 

Although I had a great season last year, I wonder what could have been if I kept up the effort into April, May and June. 



Edited by Scott71 2014-02-07 8:10 PM




(PMC - Feb 07 14.jpg)



Attachments
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PMC - Feb 07 14.jpg (1193KB - 3 downloads)
2014-02-07 8:08 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: PMC
I will play 'Devil's Advocate' and say that this, the PMC, is just a piece of information, and we all should consider the use of this , AND lots of other information, to help decide how your fitness is and how training is progressing.

It does seem very apparent that the TSS is a nicely defined workload regarding cycling and gives useful information. But I believe it a guesstimate about how training load affects each of us. It is probably useful to know that you do or do not bounce back quickly after several higher intensity workouts. Logging data about RPE and specifics about those first workouts afterwards might be very insightful.

Over time, however, a lot depends on how you (individually) recover, what fitness level you are at, and how much your own body can handle the cumulative training load. I'd bet that for some people, especially those that need extra recovery, or are old farts like me, some forced time off would be helpful, not harmful. Especially true, if the athlete had been in a relative high volume/intensity period.

And, despite the belief that not training for a short period of time leads to a 'loss of fitness', many people actually improve their fitness due to supercompensation. The loss incurred, IMO, is from the base later on, especially if the layoff is long, but the short term benefit cannot be ignored.

This information is useful, and should also be coupled with a detailed log, with information about the athlete's health and comments about how they perceive things are going. We all still need to figure out what our own best 'training dose' is and how to best recover and retrain to achieve a higher level.


BTW, here's an article from Allen regarding how TSB came to be...

http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/07/05/peaks-coaching-what-is-training...

Edited by dtoce 2014-02-07 8:33 PM
2014-02-07 8:34 PM
in reply to: 0


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Subject: RE: PMC
DP

Edited by ImSore 2014-02-07 8:35 PM
2014-02-07 8:34 PM
in reply to: dtoce


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Subject: RE: PMC

Threshold 2 week 5 done. A day behind, may do sweetspot tomorrow to catch up, may just push it till Sunday, see how I feel. Anyhow, was not too bad, HR in 130s to 140s for the 4 x 10 min intervals. TSS was 97.

File attached.



(TH2wk5.png)



Attachments
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TH2wk5.png (79KB - 4 downloads)
activity_441884555.tcx (562KB - 3 downloads)
2014-02-07 9:15 PM
in reply to: ImSore

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Subject: RE: PMC
Since I messed up and did Wk4 TH2 Wednesday instead of VO2Max1, I did the Wk4 VO2Max workout today. Since today was supposed to be Sweet Spot and 1:35 long, I decided to get after it with the shorter one hour workout. Pretty pleased with the result, I think I'm over my cold I wanted to see what kind of "all out" I could find. I think I'm pretty close. Felt surprisingly good at the end of the last 10' run. I haven't run in over a week so my legs are "fresh" so to speak. I've got to get back on track since I've got an HIM in June....

Finally going to start Wk5 Sunday.

TSS of 87, NP of 274




(02072014 Ride.jpg)



Attachments
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02072014 Ride.jpg (142KB - 5 downloads)
GC 02072014.csv (133KB - 3 downloads)


2014-02-07 10:01 PM
in reply to: reecealan


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Subject: RE: PMC
Spent Friday night here on the trainer knocking out Week 5 Threshold 2. Overall a good ride and was able to push the 3rd and 4th intervals just a bit. I added Nuun to my water and going to see if I can tell any difference. Glad the weekend is here. Have a good night.

Week 5 Threshold 2 - TSS 96

Ron



Attachments
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Ron-2014-02-08-bt-power-week-5-thr-2-722396.tcx (2141KB - 3 downloads)
2014-02-07 10:05 PM
in reply to: 0

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Oakville
Subject: RE: Week 5

I did VO2-1 and it was rough. Please let us know how VO2-2 goes. It will be different, especially with the warm up. I'll explain after Really interested !

I must have been having an off night on Tuesday (VO2-1 workout) as the VO2-2 workout tonight felt much better (still very tough).

TSS of 76 and NP of 200.

I still think that my CP was a little high after the first round of tests and would not be shocked if it stays flat after the next round or even goes down by a few points.

But I do think my 5 minute test will improve.

 



Edited by Scott71 2014-02-07 10:09 PM




(WK5VO2B.jpg)



Attachments
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WK5VO2B.jpg (184KB - 4 downloads)
WK5VO2B.csv (155KB - 3 downloads)
2014-02-08 7:14 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Week 5
Here's mine with some seeded data for the year. It is a bit messy to look at as I was viewing it daily and adding various things. I like how it has L3,4,5 overlayed but unfortunately when I add 6 and 7 it wants to create a new bar...I think it can be a little misleading because my L6/7 work jumped a bit the past week or so. Still have a workout this week where I'll be around 100 TSS. Last summer I know I was into the 60s for CTL in July, August and September before dramatically cutting back and doing some running. I have another bar that is TSS per day on here as well.



(pmc_jan14.jpg)



Attachments
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pmc_jan14.jpg (184KB - 4 downloads)
2014-02-08 7:56 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed.

Originally posted by marcag I meant to ask the group this Can you tell us when is your first race ? what is the distance ? when can you start riding outdoor ? Jason need not respond to that last question :-)
doing some catching up on the reading.

First race, more like event, is a HIM March 22nd.  I say event because I won't be in shape to race it, it is more like a kick in the a$s with a friend.  A-race is actually June 2nd, a local sprint that brings out the best racers in the Central FL region.

I can be riding outdoors right now (FL) but holding off a bit to stay focused on the trainer as I don't have a power meter.

2014-02-08 8:21 AM
in reply to: JAYCT

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Subject: RE: Week 5
Week 5 - Sweet Spot done (w/ optional 10' at 95% target). Wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/442041996

TSS for the week:

Threshold 1 - 90
Threshold 2 - 101
Sweet Spot - 137





(2-8-14 Ride Detail.png)



(2-8-14 Ride Graph.png)



Attachments
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_2014-02-08-071256.fit (115KB - 4 downloads)
2-8-14 Ride Detail.png (102KB - 8 downloads)
2-8-14 Ride Graph.png (66KB - 4 downloads)


2014-02-08 8:27 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed.
Since you guys showed me yours...I'll show you mine!



(PMC.png)



Attachments
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PMC.png (77KB - 3 downloads)
2014-02-08 8:29 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Week 5
edit, no post.



Edited by tallytom 2014-02-08 8:32 AM
2014-02-08 8:45 AM
in reply to: Scott71

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Subject: RE: Week 5

Scott -- was there a way to do a mass export of your files from TR?  I've thought about going through and putting that old data into GC, but I didn't want to have to do it manually.  It won't give a perfect representation, as I did do a lot of riding outside before I got my PM, but it would be better than nothing.

Here's my current PMC.  I've only had the PM since August, 2013, so it's been a fairly steady build for CTL.  There are three big drops in ATL, which each correspond to a long weekend / week off the bike for mini vacations.  Interesting to see how quickly TSB shoots up as ATL drops off.  

 photo ScreenShot2014-02-08at84507AM.png

2014-02-08 8:47 AM
in reply to: dtoce

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Subject: RE: PMC
Dale, I agree it is a mixture to figure out what works best for you. I will say that in the past for me when I was keeping track that it was pretty correct but I didn't realize how long I needed to be above 0 to feel the 'form'...I tapered to abrubtly after digging a big hole from fear of losing fitness when I should have been more conservative and let the TSB go up for a little while longer.

anyway, I went to the site link in the article you posted and this calculator is pretty cool....never seen it before:
http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/FP.aspx
2014-02-08 9:15 AM
in reply to: JAYCT

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Subject: RE: PMC
Originally posted by JAYCT

Dale, I agree it is a mixture to figure out what works best for you. I will say that in the past for me when I was keeping track that it was pretty correct but I didn't realize how long I needed to be above 0 to feel the 'form'...I tapered to abrubtly after digging a big hole from fear of losing fitness when I should have been more conservative and let the TSB go up for a little while longer.

anyway, I went to the site link in the article you posted and this calculator is pretty cool....never seen it before:
http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/FP.aspx


Thanks Jay. I've actually been through Allen's site, top to bottom and have most of the articles printed out into my library.

My point is just that we all need to look at the data and individualize, not generalize, for the most part. As an experienced cyclist, you can see that you can handle a steady acute stress load that puts you 'in the red' in terms of your balance for weeks if not months. Less experienced/trained individuals would not handle that at all and not only may break down, but also need to cycle rest/recovery in better to continue to improve.

The PM chart does give clues as to performance, for sure, though and is very, very interesting.

I really do thank Marc for organizing this and having Shane contribute. I have learned a TON.
Everyone's comments add to the overall flavor and IMO, this is the best thread on BT.


2014-02-08 10:21 AM
in reply to: dtoce


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Subject: RE: PMC
Here's my chart set up to show 1/1/2014 through 12/31/2014 as a season. Seeded it with 20 like was suggested.

Ron



(PMC 2-8-14.JPG)



Attachments
----------------
PMC 2-8-14.JPG (86KB - 4 downloads)
2014-02-08 10:33 AM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Week 5

Originally posted by GoFaster

Originally posted by marcag Don't hesitate to ask questions and we can try and attach pictures :-) But it would be great if everyone had their PMC.

Here's how mine looks over the past couple of seasons - you can see how I peaked my training in 2012 compared to 2013, but now looking at the TSB I kind of blew it in preparation for a Sept HIM - dwindling training, etc.  Great learning about all this.  Pretty quantifiable how being sick impacted my ability to train and the resulting scores the past couple of months.

Question about my own chart.  I imported all the data into GC, but now that I think about it the only two CP values are the first one I entered at time of profile creation (which was kind of low), and the current one.  Soooo, if these historical rides are based of my 226 CP, but my CP at the time of the rides was actually around 250, is this going to skew the PMC, and if so, how do i go back and correct?  Do I add different CP values for different times based on where I believe my CP was at the time to get a more accurate PMC?

2014-02-08 10:43 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Week 5

So I'm now a week behind as I took a week off due to being sick.  I completed week4 w/o's this week.

Originally posted by marcag

So let’s start with one term, the CTL. Chronic training load. If you trained everyday at 50 TSS points, 7 days a week for a ‘long” period of time, your CTL or chronic training load would be at 50. Think of your CTL as kind of an average of your training load over a long period of time. Think of it as your fitness. It doesn’t come and go overnight, it’s accumulated over a long period of time. Lie on the couch for a week, you don't lose all your fitness. 

PMC is new to me so this may be a dumb question as I'm trying to understand the graph.  Summarizing from the discussion, CTL on the PMC is based upon TSS points.  TSS points is a ratio metric of duration and intensity against an individual's fitness as measure by FTP (or CP).  Using Marc's example, if you train for many weeks at 50 TSS points your CTL is 50.  "Think of it as your fitness".  Ok, I get that.  But, if I continue to retest (weeks/years) and my FTP continues to increase, my TSS may still only be 50 and hence CTL has flat-lined.  Isn't my fitness increasing as represented by a higher FTP but CTL remains the same?  To me it doesn't seem right to compare year-over-year CTL.  Am I missing something?

 

2014-02-08 10:51 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed.
Did WK5 SWE-1 this morning. This week was challenging but felt really good. I've been able to balance the increased frequency of running along with these workouts well. I've attached the 3 files for this week.

I also added the PMC charts, one showing all the data and a second projecting to the end of the season. I populated GC with all the TR data I had since my virtual power wasn't too far off from the power meter. PM data starts Jan 2014. It was interesting to see that my taper at the end of August seemed to work just the way it was supposed to and was reflected in how I felt at that race. The training for about 2 months after that was a mess due to the bike crash in the Aug. race.





(cdkayak_PMC_20140208.jpg)



(cdkayak_PMC_20140208_Season.jpg)



Attachments
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cdkayak-WK5-THR-1.csv (162KB - 2 downloads)
cdkayak-WK5-VO2-1.csv (127KB - 2 downloads)
cdkayak_PMC_20140208.jpg (335KB - 3 downloads)
cdkayak-WK5-SWE-1.csv (245KB - 2 downloads)
cdkayak_PMC_20140208_Season.jpg (278KB - 3 downloads)
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