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Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. (Page 45)
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 2014-02-08 12:44 PM in reply to: RandyP |
Extreme Veteran  5722   |  Subject: RE: Week 5Originally posted by RandyP So I'm now a week behind as I took a week off due to being sick. I completed week4 w/o's this week. Originally posted by marcag So let’s start with one term, the CTL. Chronic training load. If you trained everyday at 50 TSS points, 7 days a week for a ‘long” period of time, your CTL or chronic training load would be at 50. Think of your CTL as kind of an average of your training load over a long period of time. Think of it as your fitness. It doesn’t come and go overnight, it’s accumulated over a long period of time. Lie on the couch for a week, you don't lose all your fitness. PMC is new to me so this may be a dumb question as I'm trying to understand the graph. Summarizing from the discussion, CTL on the PMC is based upon TSS points. TSS points is a ratio metric of duration and intensity against an individual's fitness as measure by FTP (or CP). Using Marc's example, if you train for many weeks at 50 TSS points your CTL is 50. "Think of it as your fitness". Ok, I get that. But, if I continue to retest (weeks/years) and my FTP continues to increase, my TSS may still only be 50 and hence CTL has flat-lined. Isn't my fitness increasing as represented by a higher FTP but CTL remains the same? To me it doesn't seem right to compare year-over-year CTL. Am I missing something?
No, your not missing anything, that is a really good question. I struggled with that for a long time. Just up the CTL and FTP will go up. Nope. I like to think of it this way. My CTL is my fitness while my FTP testing is my performance. And while they are related, they are not the same. Maybe "fitness" is not the perfect word for the CTL, because people equate "performance" to "fitness". I may year over year reach the same CTL and my FTP will continue to go up. I could reach the same CTL and my FTP could decrease because I am getting older, or not eating properly, or not training properly....many reasons. Also remember, I could have a FTP of 200, hit a ctl of 50, then test, my FTP is 250, now to a stay at a ctl of 50 I have to be riding harder since my points are based on a new FTP. So I hit 50 ctl, test, 300...and so on. Maybe I will continue to increase for a while, maybe I will need to increase ctl to get increases in performance. The correlation of CTL (fitness) to performance is interesting. In Raceday Appollo, Dr Skiba actually models and predicts performance based on past results and training load . A coach would use your PMC chart, tests, training data to try and predict/optimize performance. |
| 2014-02-08 1:00 PM in reply to: GoFaster |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Week 5 Originally posted by GoFaster Originally posted by GoFaster Originally posted by marcag Don't hesitate to ask questions and we can try and attach pictures :-) But it would be great if everyone had their PMC. Here's how mine looks over the past couple of seasons - you can see how I peaked my training in 2012 compared to 2013, but now looking at the TSB I kind of blew it in preparation for a Sept HIM - dwindling training, etc. Great learning about all this. Pretty quantifiable how being sick impacted my ability to train and the resulting scores the past couple of months. Question about my own chart. I imported all the data into GC, but now that I think about it the only two CP values are the first one I entered at time of profile creation (which was kind of low), and the current one. Soooo, if these historical rides are based of my 226 CP, but my CP at the time of the rides was actually around 250, is this going to skew the PMC, and if so, how do i go back and correct? Do I add different CP values for different times based on where I believe my CP was at the time to get a more accurate PMC? If you enter different CPs at different times, GC will go back and correct the charts |
| 2014-02-08 1:20 PM in reply to: marcag |
Veteran 1677   Houston, Texas | Subject: RE: Week 5 Week 5's Sweet Spot ride finished -- my legs felt a little heavy throughout, but didn't stop me from hitting power targets. I suspect getting back into running over the past week and a half contributes to the heavy leg feeling, but should get better when my body accepts that I'm not giving up on the running or biking |
| 2014-02-08 1:51 PM in reply to: Scott71 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Week 5 Originally posted by Scott71 I must have been having an off night on Tuesday (VO2-1 workout) as the VO2-2 workout tonight felt much better (still very tough). TSS of 76 and NP of 200. I still think that my CP was a little high after the first round of tests and would not be shocked if it stays flat after the next round or even goes down by a few points. But I do think my 5 minute test will improve.
Scott, can you re-export that as a tcx file. There is some very interesting stuff going on. I am playing with the W' stuff from Dr Skiba and he actually predicted that your VO2-1 would be much more difficult for you than VO2-2. Problem is battery size :-) I got a copy of his paper and I am trying to digest it, but basically what it looks like is those 30second intervals in VO2-1 are emptying your battery which is why your workout felt harder. VO2-2 didn't do those very hard 30' so you came into the VO2 intervals with a fuller battery. According to the model, you should have actually failed in VO2-1. You would think 5 30' intervals with 5' rest would not do that. But the model matches what you felt. My battery is a bit bigger than yours so I don't empty completely. I found the two workouts very similar. As soon as I figure this out, I'll share. |
| 2014-02-08 3:13 PM in reply to: marcag |
Veteran 341 Orangevale, CA | Subject: RE: Week 5 Finished Sweet Spot this morning. Was glad the legs were responding OK after my 10 mile run yesterday. Did a 30 minute run off the bike today. TSS for the week: Thres 1 - 94 Thres 2 - 103 SS - 138 Attachments ---------------- croyston-btpower-wk5-thres2.FIT (76KB - 4 downloads) croyston-btpower-wk5-thres1.FIT (71KB - 3 downloads) croyston-btpower-wk5-ss.FIT (107KB - 3 downloads) |
| 2014-02-08 3:54 PM in reply to: 0 |
Veteran 945 South Windsor, CT | Subject: RE: PMC There is a lot of useful comments at the end of the 'Science of the Performance Manager' article by Coggan-2008. http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/the-science-of-the-p... I like that he says that the interpretation/application of the PM is an 'art', just like medicine.  "The 'art' in applying the performance manager (PM) therefore lies in determining the precise combination of TSB and CTL that results in maximal performance." At the very end, there are additional comments that include the following: -The concepts are valid, regardliess of how the training load is quantified. (ie TSS, TRIMP whatever) -Best results are obtained with a valid FTP-especially as all values are derived from this and being off 4% will make TSS be off by 8% (TSS=duration in hoursxIF-squaredx100) -Maximal power data collection enhances accuracy. -Most people train at a level of 50-75 TSS/hr and with a weekly average IF of 0.70-0.85 -The PM will give valuable data as to what training occurred and how 'fresh' an athlete was prior to a race. This can be reviewed to help maximize best efforts at peaking. -Athletes with a TSB of +10 are usually 'fresh'. Neutral=TSB of -10 to +10. A TSB of -10 is 'not fresh', or in my words-'has significant fatigue' and not optimized for a race. -Individuals whose CTL is <100TSS/day usually feel that they are undertraining. They believe they could tolerate a heavier training load, if they had more time available or other stresses were minimized. -Few athletes can sustain a long term average of >150TSS/day for any length of time. (Data taken from Tour de France athletes) -A long plateqau in CTL=training stagnation. Change the workouts to achieve appropriate overload principles. -Increasing CTL too rapidly, ie more than 5-7TSS/day/week for 4+weeks is associated with illness/injury risk. Very cool stuff. I am awaiting Marc's insights... Edited by dtoce 2014-02-08 4:15 PM |
| 2014-02-08 4:04 PM in reply to: ligersandtions |
| Oakville | Subject: RE: Week 5 Originally posted by ligersandtions Scott -- was there a way to do a mass export of your files from TR? I've thought about going through and putting that old data into GC, but I didn't want to have to do it manually. I couldn't find a way to do a mass export and so I ended up doing it manually. I was curious to see how my CP curve was affected by all of the historical workouts. Now that we're looking at PMC, all of the workouts are there and so I didn't have to seed an estimated value (at least I think this is the case). Once you get into a rhythm it wasn't that bad and only took about 10 to 15 minutes. Once you have all the workouts downloaded its quite easy to import into GC and you can do it all at once. |
| 2014-02-08 4:12 PM in reply to: RandyP |
Veteran 945 South Windsor, CT | Subject: RE: Week 5 Originally posted by RandyP Isn't my fitness increasing as represented by a higher FTP but CTL remains the same? To me it doesn't seem right to compare year-over-year CTL.
Yes, your fitness is increasing as you have a higher FTP and can do more work than you could previously. Think of CTL as you 'cumulative training load', rather than chronic training load. It's the total effect of all of the workouts. It's good to see the line rise steadily. You need a higher workload and often a higher acute/chronic training load when you are in better shape and faster. It has to do with progressive overload-or the basic theory of training. Stress+Rest=Adaptation/Improved Response and the body is better able to handle the task next time. It really has to do with genes/enzymes/mitochondria/nutrition/rest/your own muscle makeup and more... I just love this stuff. |
| 2014-02-08 4:21 PM in reply to: 0 |
| Oakville | Subject: RE: Week 5 Scott, can you re-export that as a tcx file. There is some very interesting stuff going on. I am playing with the W' stuff from Dr Skiba and he actually predicted that your VO2-1 would be much more difficult for you than VO2-2. Problem is battery size :-) I got a copy of his paper and I am trying to digest it, but basically what it looks like is those 30second intervals in VO2-1 are emptying your battery which is why your workout felt harder. VO2-2 didn't do those very hard 30' so you came into the VO2 intervals with a fuller battery. According to the model, you should have actually failed in VO2-1. You would think 5 30' intervals with 5' rest would not do that. But the model matches what you felt. My battery is a bit bigger than yours so I don't empty completely. I found the two workouts very similar. As soon as I figure this out, I'll share. Hey Marc, here it is. I really did feel spent by the last two VO2-1 sessions but felt quite strong by the last 3:00 session of VO2-2 (it was the strongest session at 110% of CP). A question about your "battery" - my understanding is that the 'battery' is a physiological concept and is tied to your fitness. Not something that you can 'recharge' during a ride or a race with gels or caffeine. Is this correct? Edited by Scott71 2014-02-08 4:31 PM Attachments ---------------- WK5VO2B.tcx (2460KB - 5 downloads) |
| 2014-02-08 4:42 PM in reply to: dtoce |
| Oakville | Subject: RE: PMC I really do thank Marc for organizing this and having Shane contribute. I have learned a TON. Everyone's comments add to the overall flavor and IMO, this is the best thread on BT. Absolutely, I couldn't agree more! Although all of the information and the science is overwhelming at first, Marc and Shane are doing an excellent job at easing us into it. |
| 2014-02-08 5:06 PM in reply to: 0 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: Week 6 One more week of training and then we will test; this is going to be a very solid week and should set you up for an easy workout to start next week and then the short and long tests again. This week should be challenging but doable and while the TSS will be higher than in the past, it is very likely for most that your FTP has increased so the TSS will actually be higher than it is based on your current fitness. http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/power-training-levels The last couple of weeks we considered training in levels 4 and 5 and this week we will look at training in level 3. Training at this level has often been dismissed in triathlon circles as being too hard to be easy and too easy to be hard however this is quite short sighted and training at this level can be quite beneficial if employed properly within a training program. Since we are in the general phase of training, it is most important to provide a wide variety of training stress which will progress to more specific as your races approach so whether or not you will be racing below level 3 (IM), in level 3 (HIM) or above level 3 (short course), training at this level can be quite effective. You can see from the tables in the link that level 3 sees many of the same adaptations of levels 4 and 5 however the benefit from backing off into level 3 is that you can accumulate much more training in this level than you can in the higher levels. As a result the idea of sweet spot training typically describes training in high level 3 or low level 4 as you can maximize the “bang for you buck” as far as your training hours. So while level 3 tends to be not quite as effective as level 4 in several areas, the fact that you can do so much more of it within a training session can make it as or more effective than a session focused on level 4. The graphic below does a decent job of illustrating why sweet spot training can be quite effective in building bike fitness:  TTers Workout 1 – VO2max 1 Workout 2 – Threshold 1 Workout 3 – VO2max 2 All Rounders Workout 1 – Threshold 1 Workout 2 – VO2max 1 Workout 3 – Threshold 2 or Sweet Spot Sprinters Workout 1 – Threshold 1 Workout 2 – Threshold 2 Workout 3 – Sweet Spot VO2max 1 – 55:00 10:00 spin build to 65% of FTP 5:00 at 98% FTP 5:00 spin 60% FTP 5x3:30 at >105% FTP (hard), 2:30 60% FTP 5:00 spin <60% FTP VO2max 2 – 1:00:00 10:00 spin build to 65% of FTP 5:00 at 99% FTP 5:00 spin 60% FTP 4x5:00 at >105% FTP (hard), 3:00 60% FTP 8:00 at <60% FTP Threshold 1 – 1:10:00 10:00 spin build to 65% of FTP 5x10s all out, 50s 60% FTP 5:00 spin 60% FTP 5x4:00 at 101% FTP, 1:00 60% FTP 5:00 60% FTP 15:00 95% FTP 5:00 60% FTP Threshold 2 – 1:20:00 10:00 spin build to 65% of FTP 5:00 at FTP 5:00 at 60% FTP 15:00 at 95?%FTP 5:00 at 60% FTP 15:00 at 96% FTP 5:00 at 60% FTP 15:00 at 97% FTP 5:00 60% FTP Sweet Spot – 1:35:00 10:00 spin build to 65% of FTP 5x15s all out, 45s easy 5:00 60% FTP 3x20:00 at 91% FTP, 3:20 at 60% FTP 5:00 at 60% FTP (optional) 5:00 at FTP (optional) 5:00 <60% FTP Shane Edited by gsmacleod 2014-02-08 5:08 PM |
| 2014-02-08 5:55 PM in reply to: marcag |
| 20 Brampton, Ontario | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Good evening Marc/Shane Week 5 is completed TSS 314 NP 200... SWE workout was a treat 1h45mins.. real good burn on the legs great work outs this week.. P |
| 2014-02-08 6:02 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Week 6 Originally posted by gsmacleod One more week of training and then we will test; this is going to be a very solid week and should set you up for an easy workout to start next week and then the short and long tests again. This week should be challenging but doable and while the TSS will be higher than in the past, it is very likely for most that your FTP has increased so the TSS will actually be higher than it is based on your current fitness. http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/power-training-levels The last couple of weeks we considered training in levels 4 and 5 and this week we will look at training in level 3. Training at this level has often been dismissed in triathlon circles as being too hard to be easy and too easy to be hard however this is quite short sighted and training at this level can be quite beneficial if employed properly within a training program. Since we are in the general phase of training, it is most important to provide a wide variety of training stress which will progress to more specific as your races approach so whether or not you will be racing below level 3 (IM), in level 3 (HIM) or above level 3 (short course), training at this level can be quite effective. You can see from the tables in the link that level 3 sees many of the same adaptations of levels 4 and 5 however the benefit from backing off into level 3 is that you can accumulate much more training in this level than you can in the higher levels. As a result the idea of sweet spot training typically describes training in high level 3 or low level 4 as you can maximize the “bang for you buck” as far as your training hours. So while level 3 tends to be not quite as effective as level 4 in several areas, the fact that you can do so much more of it within a training session can make it as or more effective than a session focused on level 4. The graphic below does a decent job of illustrating why sweet spot training can be quite effective in building bike fitness: TTers Workout 1 – VO2max 1 Workout 2 – Threshold 1 Workout 3 – VO2max 2 All Rounders Workout 1 – Threshold 1 Workout 2 – VO2max 1 Workout 3 – Threshold 2 or Sweet Spot Sprinters Workout 1 – Threshold 1 Workout 2 – Threshold 2 Workout 3 – Sweet Spot VO2max 1 – 55:00 10:00 spin build to 65% of FTP 5:00 at 98% FTP 5:00 spin 60% FTP 5x3:30 at >105% FTP (hard), 2:30 60% FTP 5:00 spin <60% FTP VO2max 2 – 1:00:00 10:00 spin build to 65% of FTP 5:00 at 99% FTP 5:00 spin 60% FTP 4x5:00 at >105% FTP (hard), 3:00 60% FTP 8:00 at <60% FTP Threshold 1 – 1:10:00 10:00 spin build to 65% of FTP 5x10s all out, 50s 60% FTP 5:00 spin 60% FTP 5x4:00 at 101% FTP, 1:00 60% FTP 5:00 60% FTP 15:00 95% FTP 5:00 60% FTP Threshold 2 – 1:20:00 10:00 spin build to 65% of FTP 5:00 at FTP 5:00 at 60% FTP 15:00 at 95?%FTP 5:00 at 60% FTP 15:00 at 96% FTP 5:00 at 60% FTP 15:00 at 97% FTP 5:00 60% FTP Sweet Spot – 1:35:00 10:00 spin build to 65% of FTP 5x15s all out, 45s easy 5:00 60% FTP 3x20:00 at 91% FTP, 3:20 at 60% FTP 5:00 at 60% FTP (optional) 5:00 at FTP (optional) 5:00 <60% FTP Shane Enjoy :-) Attachments ---------------- BTWK6-THR-1.mrc (0KB - 16 downloads) BTWK6-SWE-1.mrc (0KB - 15 downloads) BTWK6-VO2-1.mrc (0KB - 18 downloads) BTWK6-VO2-2.mrc (0KB - 15 downloads) BTWK6-THR-2.mrc (0KB - 15 downloads) |
| 2014-02-08 6:11 PM in reply to: dtoce |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: PMC Originally posted by dtoce -Individuals whose CTL is <100TSS/day usually feel that they are undertraining. They believe they could tolerate a heavier training load, if they had more time available or other stresses were minimized. -Few athletes can sustain a long term average of >150TSS/day for any length of time. (Data taken from Tour de France athletes) I agree with it, but remember we are training across three sports so don't just look at your bike TSS |
| 2014-02-08 6:15 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: PMC Originally posted by Scott71 I really do thank Marc for organizing this and having Shane contribute. I have learned a TON. Everyone's comments add to the overall flavor and IMO, this is the best thread on BT. Absolutely, I couldn't agree more! Although all of the information and the science is overwhelming at first, Marc and Shane are doing an excellent job at easing us into it. thanks I agree it's a lot of info but what I really wanted is that you guys learn this using YOUR data. It's much easier to relate to. I am really happy people are getting their PMC charts published. Very cool !!! Don't hesitate to ask questions, there are no dumb questions !! This stuff is pretty geeky. And the most important thing : everyone has a higher CP when this is over. Edited by marcag 2014-02-08 6:20 PM |
| 2014-02-08 6:37 PM in reply to: marcag |
| 1053 | Subject: RE: PMC Week 5 done. TH1 - TSS 96, NP 249 TH2 - TSS 97, NP 242 SS - TSS 141, NP 247 Total TSS - 334 Went a bit over targets. I wanted to hit 80% rather than 75% on the optional 10 min segment. Just to get a feel of what my HIM pace should roughly feel like. Wasn't so bad, it actually helped my confidence a bit. Considering I was averaging 234 watts (roughly 83 to 84% FTP) with 90 minutes of riding down, I felt like I would be able to hold it there for quite awhile. I also ran a decent 10k off of the bike, not blazing fast, but roughly marathon pace. I also cant wait to get outside to see what my real "all out" is, I hit 958 watts, but the tire was slipping on the trainer, so I couldn't really get more. I also attached my PMC. I got a nice little jump in ATL with back to back workouts in the last 2 days. File for sweet spot attached. (SSwk5.png) (PMCJan1Feb8.png) Attachments ---------------- SSwk5.png (71KB - 5 downloads) activity_442397520.tcx (825KB - 5 downloads) PMCJan1Feb8.png (30KB - 5 downloads) |
| 2014-02-08 6:42 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: PMC Originally posted by ImSore Considering I was averaging 234 watts (roughly 83 to 84% FTP) with 90 minutes of riding down, I felt like I would be able to hold it there for quite awhile. I also ran a decent 10k off of the bike, not blazing fast, but roughly marathon pace. Excellent !! Are you riding in aero or upright ? If upright you are going to want to get a feel for FTP in aero position. It can (usually does) differ. Edited by marcag 2014-02-08 6:45 PM |
| 2014-02-08 6:49 PM in reply to: marcag |
| 1053 | Subject: RE: PMC Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by ImSore Considering I was averaging 234 watts (roughly 83 to 84% FTP) with 90 minutes of riding down, I felt like I would be able to hold it there for quite awhile. I also ran a decent 10k off of the bike, not blazing fast, but roughly marathon pace. Excellent !! Are you riding in aero or upright ? If upright you are going to want to get a feel for FTP in aero position. It can (usually does) differ. All aero. I've actually gotten more comfortable in aero than on the horns, less strain on the shoulders and back, and 100% less strain on the hands . I used to get a sore neck, but doesn't happen anymore really. Although a few months from now when I am doing my 4 to 6 hour rides I may be telling a different story |
| 2014-02-09 7:02 AM in reply to: Scott71 |
Master 1927 Guilford, CT | Subject: RE: Week 5 Originally posted by Scott71 Scott, can you re-export that as a tcx file. There is some very interesting stuff going on. I am playing with the W' stuff from Dr Skiba and he actually predicted that your VO2-1 would be much more difficult for you than VO2-2. Problem is battery size :-) I got a copy of his paper and I am trying to digest it, but basically what it looks like is those 30second intervals in VO2-1 are emptying your battery which is why your workout felt harder. VO2-2 didn't do those very hard 30' so you came into the VO2 intervals with a fuller battery. According to the model, you should have actually failed in VO2-1. You would think 5 30' intervals with 5' rest would not do that. But the model matches what you felt. My battery is a bit bigger than yours so I don't empty completely. I found the two workouts very similar. As soon as I figure this out, I'll share. Hey Marc, here it is. I really did feel spent by the last two VO2-1 sessions but felt quite strong by the last 3:00 session of VO2-2 (it was the strongest session at 110% of CP). A question about your "battery" - my understanding is that the 'battery' is a physiological concept and is tied to your fitness. Not something that you can 'recharge' during a ride or a race with gels or caffeine. Is this correct? Scott, wanted to make sure your question gets touched on. It is something I've been contemplating quite a bit as I am a newbie to bike racing where I will need to spike power a lot. My limited understanding is that you can recharge W' during a ride, but the rate of recharge is generally pretty slow. Anytime you go over your CP you start draining the battery (burning matches). People with higher FTP will experience the recharge a little faster but still not very fast. Dr. Skiba posted in this thread on the other site which is a great primer and discussion around it. It may/may not have been posted to this thread earlier, but I have it bookmarked now. http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=3820993 I'm trying to understand how much of an impact anaerobic intervals can have and in what time period in making that W' bigger. And I'd like to get Marc's data on what he was discussing around burning through it and how he figured that out. For one of my races coming up in a few week it is a 0.8 mile lap crit course with a 22-30" hill you hit 15 times (cat 5 is short). I've seen power profiles and it is basically mandatory that you go 'hard' up that to stay with the group. That is a minimum of a few minutes anaerobic, but doesn't count all of the other surges and the likely attacks. I was trying to see if I could predict if I might have any W' left...if that makes sense... |
| 2014-02-09 7:47 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Week 5 Originally posted by JAYCT Originally posted by Scott71 Scott, can you re-export that as a tcx file. There is some very interesting stuff going on. I am playing with the W' stuff from Dr Skiba and he actually predicted that your VO2-1 would be much more difficult for you than VO2-2. Problem is battery size :-) I got a copy of his paper and I am trying to digest it, but basically what it looks like is those 30second intervals in VO2-1 are emptying your battery which is why your workout felt harder. VO2-2 didn't do those very hard 30' so you came into the VO2 intervals with a fuller battery. According to the model, you should have actually failed in VO2-1. You would think 5 30' intervals with 5' rest would not do that. But the model matches what you felt. My battery is a bit bigger than yours so I don't empty completely. I found the two workouts very similar. As soon as I figure this out, I'll share. Hey Marc, here it is. I really did feel spent by the last two VO2-1 sessions but felt quite strong by the last 3:00 session of VO2-2 (it was the strongest session at 110% of CP). A question about your "battery" - my understanding is that the 'battery' is a physiological concept and is tied to your fitness. Not something that you can 'recharge' during a ride or a race with gels or caffeine. Is this correct? Scott, wanted to make sure your question gets touched on. It is something I've been contemplating quite a bit as I am a newbie to bike racing where I will need to spike power a lot. My limited understanding is that you can recharge W' during a ride, but the rate of recharge is generally pretty slow. Anytime you go over your CP you start draining the battery (burning matches). People with higher FTP will experience the recharge a little faster but still not very fast. Dr. Skiba posted in this thread on the other site which is a great primer and discussion around it. It may/may not have been posted to this thread earlier, but I have it bookmarked now. http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=3820993 I'm trying to understand how much of an impact anaerobic intervals can have and in what time period in making that W' bigger. And I'd like to get Marc's data on what he was discussing around burning through it and how he figured that out. For one of my races coming up in a few week it is a 0.8 mile lap crit course with a 22-30" hill you hit 15 times (cat 5 is short). I've seen power profiles and it is basically mandatory that you go 'hard' up that to stay with the group. That is a minimum of a few minutes anaerobic, but doesn't count all of the other surges and the likely attacks. I was trying to see if I could predict if I might have any W' left...if that makes sense... The W' modelling is available in Raceday Apollo but the good news is that it's coming to Golden Cheetah in the development builds. You can get the development builds if you want, but beware, they are in development. I usally put a development build on a test machine first so I don't screw up my working copy. In raceday, you enter your CP, your intervals (on wattage, on time, off wattage, off time and it actually shows a zig zag of your W' as it discharges and recharges. You can design workouts to bring your W' to 0. So Scott, for example in that last workout, you start with a W' of 4000j. Remember that number from your test ? You do that first interval, you are well above CP, you drop to say 2000j, you rest, you go up to 2300j, you do the next one, you drop down to 300j, you rest back to 600, next interval in theory you go below 0. Now, you can't below 0, so either your battery was over 4000 to start or your CP is actually higher and you are dipping into it so much. I suspect your battery was bigger than that original 4000j. If I up your 5' test a bit, it brings your CP down (as we learned) but it increases your W'. Remember CP is the slope of that line. By increasing the 5 min test I am pushing the lefthand point up, decreasing the slope (CP) and increasing the intercept (W'). By doing this and put the numbers in the calculator, your workout makes more sense. So yes, you are right, you probably underperformed a little in your 5' test. Your CP may be a little bit high. From what I understand, when your W' reaches a threshold (measure in Joules and above 0) you do feel exhausted. It seems discharge depends on how high you go above CP and recharge is based on how low you go below CP. How fast/slow is what I don't understand. This stuff is fascinating and I am trying to understand it so not to mislead you guys. I know one guy on ST (a really good coach) who seems to be using it, hence why I started sniffing about it. I have a copy of Raceday on my Windows machine at home and am on my Mac not at home. I think I'm going to get another license. Raceday is pretty cool. While some of the stuff will become available on GC, it will be for biking only and Raceday is all 3 sports. Jason, Watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JngDbe1lyXw&list=UUKKhgfDW8KpINAd4W1... Dr Skiba is the kind of guy that will not just "drop into" a discussion uninvited. I know he is aware of our group so if he is reading, please drop in :-) Edited by marcag 2014-02-09 8:01 AM |
| 2014-02-09 8:44 AM in reply to: 0 |
Regular 389 | Subject: RE: PMC " I am really happy people are getting their PMC charts published. Very cool !!!" In regards to Marc's quote above: I'm trying to get my PMC chart shown, but have been having zero luck. I would like to do a screen shot like everyone else, but for the life of me can't figure it out. It is an interesting chart and you've provided great info. Thanks, Tom Edited by tallytom 2014-02-09 8:46 AM |
| 2014-02-09 9:25 AM in reply to: tallytom |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: PMC Originally posted by tallytom " I am really happy people are getting their PMC charts published. Very cool !!!" In regards to Marc's quote above: I'm trying to get my PMC chart shown, but have been having zero luck. I would like to do a screen shot like everyone else, but for the life of me can't figure it out. It is an interesting chart and you've provided great info. Thanks, Tom Do you have the screen shot and can't upload it ? I do a prtscrn, paste into MSPaint and save as a png or jpg. I am sure there is easier however Then at the bottom of this box there is a little checkbox for "attach a file after posting". Check that and then you can add a file after pressing the submit on this form |
| 2014-02-09 10:44 AM in reply to: marcag |
Veteran 1677 Houston, Texas | Subject: RE: Week 5 Marc, does this give you any insight as to what you should be targeting for the upcoming 5' and 20' tests? That's one thing I've always struggled with....after six weeks of structured training (though all well below 5' or 20' max power), how much improvement should one expect? I'm actually quite fearful that my 5' test will go up (by like 10W) because I now have a better idea of how to pace it, but that my 20' is going to stay where it is....thus my CP is actually going to go down. And it's not so much a big deal if my CP were to go down (or be set more correctly...), but I haven't had issues with any of the threshold rides we've done so far. But I remember how completely beat I was at the end of the 20' test last time and am not sure if I'll actually be able to improve on it. Who knows, maybe that effort six weeks ago wouldn't be as big a deal now, but I feel like it still would be! |
| 2014-02-09 11:13 AM in reply to: ligersandtions |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Week 5 Originally posted by ligersandtions Marc, does this give you any insight as to what you should be targeting for the upcoming 5' and 20' tests? That's one thing I've always struggled with....after six weeks of structured training (though all well below 5' or 20' max power), how much improvement should one expect? I'm actually quite fearful that my 5' test will go up (by like 10W) because I now have a better idea of how to pace it, but that my 20' is going to stay where it is....thus my CP is actually going to go down. And it's not so much a big deal if my CP were to go down (or be set more correctly...), but I haven't had issues with any of the threshold rides we've done so far. But I remember how completely beat I was at the end of the 20' test last time and am not sure if I'll actually be able to improve on it. Who knows, maybe that effort six weeks ago wouldn't be as big a deal now, but I feel like it still would be! I guess it kind of helps confirm your test numbers, like in Scott's case. He had a bit of an extreme 4kj W'. You went under 0 on Feb 6th, which would mean your W' may be set low as well or your CP is set too low, or both. But then again it could be you have improved since we last tested so they are more the result of your improvement than being previously not set right. I did ask Dr Skiba is if it was a valid way to confirm CP and W', and he said yes. I did want to do a few more test rides. I had one scheduled on Friday but my trainer tire blew up :-) For instance those short 30sec intervals empty our batteries according to the calculation. I had planned on trying to do some VO2 intervals right after it to see if I could. I suspect several of us will improve more on the 5' test than the 20. I am pretty sure I will. I plan to start at my previous 5' result, build very slowly and if I have gas in the tank go beyond 5'. Remember this model allows the tests to be 3, 4, 5...minutes. I also thought to target a 4' test and run over if I can. One cool thing about a computrainer is you can say "hold me at 300w" and it will. So you just ride until complete exhaustion so you know you gave 100%. That may be 3m46s but then you just plug that into the model. I really don't mind seeing my CP come down because my 5' goes up. It just means it wasn't properly set last time. If you do 5watts better on your 5' test and 1w better on your 20', your CP will go down. Did you improve ? YES |
| 2014-02-09 11:27 AM in reply to: marcag |
Veteran 441 Maine | Subject: RE: Week 5 Marc, As I read more about CP, W, PMC charts etc. and look at my older data I realize that I'd like to do that for all 3 sports going forward this year. The two applications you've mentioned that will do that are Raceday Apollo and WKO+. From your experience have you developed a preference? Have you seen any others out there? I think it would be beneficial to visually see how the other activities are effecting things. Thanks |
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| Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Pages: 1 ... 72 73 74 75 | ||
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