login
Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? (Page 4)
-
No new posts
|
 2013-08-02 6:34 PM in reply to: 0 |
 1660    |  Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing?Read some of the above posts. NOBODY intentionally swims over people. Nobody. Biggest reason why, aside from being a total doof move: - It will slow you down big time to land on someone's back. You will be much faster just going around them. The biggest reasons why you'll give swum over when slow: - Typically, a pack of fast-moving swimmers, tightly drafting each other, will come up on you. Even if the lead guy in the scrum sees you, the other 5-6 guys behind him will not, and assume he's going straight. Next thing you know, even if the front guy dodges you, the 5-6 guys behind won't typically have time to dodge, especially if they're tightly packed. If you thought riding in a group was dicey because the lead guy didn't call out obstacles/potholes, it's the same thing in a race swim where water and limbs are flying everywhere and you're working hard to stay in contact as a faster swimmers. - Very hard to see slower swimmers if you're in that tight scrum, with bodies in every direction. If you're sighting correctly, you're doing 'snapshots' and thus it's very hard to see a single isolated slower swimmer when there are 6-8 people immediately around you. Typically, when you swim over someone you're really surprised, as you assume that you were just following the toes of the speedster in front of you. - If you get swum over by an isolated fast swimmer in clear water, then yes, they're a doof, but that never happens. - Slower swimmers often don't have this issue beacuse they're either too slow to swim over someone, and/or they can't maintain speed in a fast pack that's overtaking a lot of other people. Edited by yazmaster 2013-08-02 6:35 PM |
| 2013-08-02 7:29 PM in reply to: pugpenny |
Veteran 2297  Great White North | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? http://www.swimvortex.com/recall-as-10-flop-in-at-start-of-barca-me... " Gergely Gyurta (HUN), the younger brother of Olympic and world champion over 200m breaststroke, required medical assistance after sustaining head injuries. One observer said: “He looked like a water polo player who just came from the centre forward position.” Gyurta, 23sec from gold in 18th, weighed in with: “They kicked, they hit and elbowed me at each turn, there was no mercy. Even my goggles were kicked off in the second lap.” " |
| 2013-08-02 8:04 PM in reply to: simpsonbo |
Official BT Coach 18500 Indianapolis, Indiana Gold member | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? Originally posted by simpsonbo http://www.swimvortex.com/recall-as-10-flop-in-at-start-of-barca-mens-marathon/ " Gergely Gyurta (HUN), the younger brother of Olympic and world champion over 200m breaststroke, required medical assistance after sustaining head injuries. One observer said: “He looked like a water polo player who just came from the centre forward position.” Gyurta, 23sec from gold in 18th, weighed in with: “They kicked, they hit and elbowed me at each turn, there was no mercy. Even my goggles were kicked off in the second lap.” " That is all well and good, but it is comparing apples to oranges. We are talking about amateur age-group athletes, essentially competing for bragging rights. The article you posted is talking about professional athletes competing for a $30,000 first place prize. At no point has the discussion referred to elite/pro triathletes - indeed the elite triathletes often have their own wave start and in that sense, with the possible exception of multi-lap events, are largely immune from the issues we have been discussing. 30 grand? Yeah, I can see where some might consider that incentive to swim up someone's back. Still wrong, but I can understand. Interesting article though. Reminded my of my water polo days. |
| 2013-08-02 8:32 PM in reply to: 0 |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? http://www.bcn2013.com/en/detail/article/fina-raises-the-total-priz... Edited by simpsonbo 2013-08-02 8:46 PM |
| 2013-08-03 8:02 AM in reply to: skyblueclipse |
Extreme Veteran 929 , Kobenhavns Kommune | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? People, please: First, anyone who claims that swimming over other people is always avoidable has no clue about OWS and assumes perfect swim conditions for all: - One long straight stretch with no turn buoys or other congestion points - Small group of swimmers of similar abilities spread wide with plenty of space - Everyone seed and place themselves correctly according to their abilities - No current or waves - Perfect sighting, no one is blinded by the sun or the reflections in the waves - No goggles fogging up or leaking, everyone has perfect vision with 180° unobstructed view - Clear water with 10m or more visibility - ... Reality is that few if any of those are the case, in fact the only one I have found apply is no current or waves when swimming in a lake, but there's still some chopping from the wind. People can't place themselves correctly simply because that would assume everyone knows how fast everyone else is. No one knows just how slow slow is, or how fast fast is, and whether wave start or one single mass start, most often all levels of ability are present in the group. People are not spread out, in fact lots of swimmers try to draft on other swimmers. There is no perfect sighting, early morning starts when the sun is low almost guarantees that the sun or reflections will be a problem. Buoys are hard to see, sometimes very small, sometimes mistaken for other things, people get off course and correct, waves and currents only make that even worse. Goggles have reduced vision, in particular competition goggles lets you look straight and sense the rest. Underwater there is not clear, and even when clear it's usually dark. With people wearing black wetsuits, it's pretty difficult to see them and much more estimate distance. You can't assume you can feel the turbulence from other swimmers as you approach from behind as most hardly kick. All of these factors means that physical contact including swimming into and over each other most likely will happen. Second, anyone who believes it's always the fault of the one swimming over is wrong. It's simply too easy to just blame somebody else, there are plenty of situations where you can't blame the one swimming over you or even anybody else. Whether a mass start or waves, it's still a big group of people starting together, spread out over some area they all aim for the turning point. This means that the group will squeeze together, depending on how big the group, how wide they are spread and how far to the nearest turning point, somebody will collide and/or is forced to swim over somebody else. You can't blame anyone, it's no ones fault, or every ones fault. The same happens at congestion points, turn buoys. The closer you are to the buoy the more likely you'll make "friends" with somebody else. Starting in waves, people are rarely seeded according to their swim abilities, more often according to age group or total time. You can be pretty sure that any wave has all levels of swimmers and FOP from the last waves will catch up with earlier waves. The fast swimmer can try to go through the pack or on either side. On one side means getting close to the next turn buoy and suffer the congestion there, on the other means taking a huge loop, and either may not be practically possible depending on where the swimmer is. It's difficult to guess which side is the better because frankly, you can only see the nearest swimmers. The fast swimmers will avoid what he can, but there's no perfect solution. People draft, if the lead swimmer sights and corrects his course, others will follow but with a delay causing people to collide or swim over each other. Sometimes a swimmer just sees that a bigger group is swimming on his left and thinks he's off course, so he'll just turn left to get back in line. Anyone who was following will have to make up their mind to correct or go on their own. And it's not a coordinated decision. People stop, either do some breast stroke for better sighting or roll on their back to empty leaking goggles. Anyone behind will try to avoid but that just have them on collision course with other nearby swimmers. Waves and currents move swimmers around in unpredictable ways, you thought you kept a safe distance, but then you didn't. Waves also makes sighting more difficult causing people to stop more often and correct their course. That means a lot of zigzagging in the group. Even in clear water you can't see more than one swimmer ahead, if you're swimming in a pack you have less than a stroke to correct for the unexpected, such as slow swimmers from previous waves. It is practically impossible always to avoid contact with other swimmers in the pack. A fast swimmer can gain a half length on the slower swimmer with each stroke, this really means that there it's very difficult to do a corrective stroke and avoid swimming over or collide with the slower swimmer. Don't assume the one swimming over you is at fault, it could be you doing something unexpected or some one else, it could be the unfortunate result of trying to avoid somebody else, nobody is perfect. Third, nobody swims over other people on purpose. Really, things happen, but nobody is out there to cut your throat, contact whether it is a slap with the hand or swimming over somebody is accidental, unintentional and nothing personal. Assume that, and don't respond, just keep going. I can think of one example only where somebody will do this on purpose: Some jerk was swum over and somehow erroneously reached the conclusion that such are the rules of the game and decided to swim aggressively in defence. Please forgive him for he knows not what he is doing if you meet him. And please, please, don't be that jerk! In conclusion: The nature of OWS implies that physical contact is likely, lost goggles, a slap with the hand, a kick to the face, being swum over by somebody else, ripped wetsuits, lost timing chips, etc. are all things that may happen during the swim. But I disagree that OWS is a contact sport, it is not: Contact is not something that is sought or desired, it's a condition that we all have to learn to deal with. Suck it up or don't swim, there are duathlons. Phew ... |
| 2013-08-03 9:03 AM in reply to: erik.norgaard |
Alpharetta, Georgia Bronze member | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? Originally posted by erik.norgaard Second, anyone who believes it's always the fault of the one swimming over is wrong. Nope. |
| 2013-08-03 9:40 AM in reply to: lisac957 |
Extreme Veteran 929 , Kobenhavns Kommune | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? Originally posted by lisac957 Originally posted by erik.norgaard Second, anyone who believes it's always the fault of the one swimming over is wrong. Nope. Wrong. If I'm passing you in a car and you pull out without looking back, fault is yours. Don't assume that just because you got hit from behind it must be somebody else's fault. Swimming in a pack, well, if I'm on your left and doing a stroke with my right arm, the arm obscures my view and I won't see when you change direction (which you of course do without looking back checking that you can do so safely) in time to correct. And it could be a third person forcing you to change direction. There are plenty of examples where the one who eventually swam over you did everything in his power to avoid and minimise contact and accidents. Yet things happen. Please, stop the blame game, just swim. Good luck banning drafting in the swim, imposing minimum safety distance, and banning passing other swimmers. And banning mass starts, and enforcing seeding based on swim ability ... what a race that would be. |
| 2013-08-03 9:42 AM in reply to: lisac957 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? Originally posted by lisac957 Originally posted by erik.norgaard Second, anyone who believes it's always the fault of the one swimming over is wrong. Nope. Only, some people are terrible navigators, and can barely follow the line on the bottom of the pool. Put them in open water, and they tend to zig zag all over the place and there are times they're swimming nearly 90 degrees to the rest of the field. When this happens, they are at least partially responsible for the collisions and/or getting swam over. Remember that good sighting is more like taking quick snap shots to see what's ahead in the water, where the buoys are, and identifying landmarks to determine your position than it is taking a video to access all of your surroundings. Because of this, someone off to the side swimming at an angle isn't always seen. I think I've witnessed this sort of poor navigation by some swimmers in every race I've ever seen. Using your analogy, Lisa, it's not the equivalent of rear ending another car. It's more like someone pulling out of a driveway or side street into your travel path without looking first.
|
| 2013-08-03 10:26 AM in reply to: Jason N |
| Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? Originally posted by Jason N ...Or you all can continue debating who is right and wrong for another 4 pages. At least I was "right" about something... |
| 2013-08-03 12:14 PM in reply to: 0 |
| Alpharetta, Georgia Bronze member | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by lisac957 Originally posted by erik.norgaard Second, anyone who believes it's always the fault of the one swimming over is wrong. Nope. Only, some people are terrible navigators, and can barely follow the line on the bottom of the pool. Put them in open water, and they tend to zig zag all over the place and there are times they're swimming nearly 90 degrees to the rest of the field. When this happens, they are at least partially responsible for the collisions and/or getting swam over. Remember that good sighting is more like taking quick snap shots to see what's ahead in the water, where the buoys are, and identifying landmarks to determine your position than it is taking a video to access all of your surroundings. Because of this, someone off to the side swimming at an angle isn't always seen. I think I've witnessed this sort of poor navigation by some swimmers in every race I've ever seen. Using your analogy, Lisa, it's not the equivalent of rear ending another car. It's more like someone pulling out of a driveway or side street into your travel path without looking first.
I completely agree with the zig zaggers. I was talking about someone coming up from directly behind, which is 100% avoidable. Or in the cases I've experienced, coming from behind and literally pushing me out of their way. Again, aggressive, unnecessary and avoidable. To Eric I never mentioned banning drafting. Edited by lisac957 2013-08-03 12:16 PM |
| 2013-08-05 11:42 AM in reply to: 0 |
Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? |
| 2013-08-05 11:46 AM in reply to: mrbbrad |
| Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? Just chiming in here. Did a 2 mile ocean race yesterday. Two waves, wave 1 was all men. wave 2 was all women and all westuits. I think the women get the shaft on this one, as lots of wetsuit swimmers can be aggressive. Since it was just a training day for me, and I did not want to interfere with the womens' racing, I started to the outside and gave everyone plenty of room as I came up on them. Around the first pier there was a bit of a pinch, in normal races I would have held my line more, but here I took different lines to minimize contact, as it didn't feel fair for a 185# guy like me to be banging on a 120# girl (that sounds dirty.....) Caught lots of guys in wave 1 and had to swim around them. Even though I was polite, still ended up 5/99 AG and 12/295 overall. So you can swim well while swimming around people and not over them, and just generally being courteous |
| 2013-08-05 11:48 AM in reply to: ChrisM |
| Alpharetta, Georgia Bronze member | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? Originally posted by ChrisM Caught lots of guys in wave 1 and had to swim around them. Even though I was polite, still ended up 5/99 AG and 12/295 overall. So you can swim well while swimming around people and not over them, and just generally being courteous Wow nice job!! That's inspiring! |
| 2013-08-05 11:59 AM in reply to: lisac957 |
Champion 7136 Knoxville area | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? crap how did I miss this thread... looks like a winner. If you swim over me, it's wrong. If I'm swimming over you, you're wrong. |
| 2013-08-05 12:30 PM in reply to: Leegoocrap |
Master 2167 Livonia, MI | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? I've been swum over many times during races and it didn't feel like much of big deal to me. The one time when I actually ended up having to DNF and get pulled was when I trying to pass a big guy, he zagged unknowingly and kicked me square in the forehead. Turned out to be a concussion. Point being that the idea of having someone swim over me isn't a big deal or something I care/worry about. Trying to safely pass without getting kicked is always in the back of my mind every race since that one and is a way bigger deal to me than being swum over. |
| 2013-08-05 12:33 PM in reply to: 0 |
Expert 1111 Albuquerque, NM | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by RockTractor Just because something isn't technically illegal doesn't mean it's a wise course of action nor considerate of other participants. Originally posted by k9car363 Should people doing breaststroke be in the middle of the pack? NO! Absolutely not Why not? There is no rule against breast-strokers being there.I'd say if someone plans on doing breast-stroke the whole way and feels that their race is best executed by lining up at the start front and center, go for it - they are not doing anything wrong. They have just as much right to that position as anybody else does.Agreed. It's also not cause for anyone to push aside, swim over, punch, kick, or otherwise that participant. I have NEVER been in a swim situation that I couldn't figure out how to just redirect and swim on with very little, if any, impact to my race. Edited by RockTractor 2013-08-05 12:33 PM |
| 2013-08-05 12:57 PM in reply to: k9car363 |
Veteran 177 Berlin, Germany | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? Originally posted by k9car363 As to running over people. It is NEVER acceptable. There simply is NO excuse for it happening. NONE! I can stop my forward momentum on a dime, I can change my direction on a nickle. I am not going to risk manslaughter charges because I ran someone over and caused a major incident. Apparently there is WAY too much testosterone in the OWS for running people over to be a problem. You trained for a long time for this event? So did I. So did the person you are about to run over. There is NO excuse. Go around them. /\/\/\ THIS! Absolutely post of the thread! Cannot say it any better or clearer ! |
| 2013-08-05 1:02 PM in reply to: RockTractor |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? At the Jr. Elite race in Richmond this year the 75 athletes (16-19) got necked into a narrows that went under a bridge at about 250M.....and it was a war. There was more serious contact than I have seen at any race, but we had a good vantage point standing on the bridge looking down. I saw many swimmers grabbing and punching and generally swimming over each other. My kid ran by me on the way to first transition with a giant smile on his face and yelled, "That was CRAZY!!!". The fact is, contact means very little to some foks and it can be debilitating to other people. It's triathlon. |
| 2013-08-05 1:20 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Expert 1111 Albuquerque, NM | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? Originally posted by Left Brain My kid ran by me on the way to first transition with a giant smile on his face and yelled, "That was CRAZY!!!". Excellent attitude! Your son will do well with that outlook. |
| 2013-08-05 2:25 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 928 | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? Reading this thread has made me completely fear the open water swim. I'm a confident swimmer but I am not fast. So far I've only done pool tris, and although I seed myself properly and finish in the time I predict, people behind me always seem to start fast and want to pass me. Will these people be pulling at my feet and swimming over me in an OWS? I will happily start in the BOP, but if some feels so entitled to swim over me and push me under water I think I'd be too happy. Edited by jennifer_runs 2013-08-05 2:30 PM |
| 2013-08-05 2:31 PM in reply to: jennifer_runs |
Master 2167 Livonia, MI | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? Originally posted by jennifer_runs Reading this thread has made me completely fear the open water swim. I'm a confident swimmer but I am not fast. I will happily start in the BOP but if some feels so entitled to swim over me and push me under water I think I'd be too happy. Don't be. I mean, even the strongest and most experienced of swimmers should still keep a healthy fear of the water, just like you would when riding on the road. The key is be prepared and get comfortable out there. There are plenty of not as competitive smaller local tris where you're not very likely to find anyone swimming *that* aggressively. Practice swimming with a partner close to shore where you can easily stand up and have he/she bump you, jostle you, maybe even swim over you. The idea is getting comfortable with it. You may well go out and have a whole season where you don't encounter anything like what you're reading in this thread. There will always be some amount of contact but unless you're in a super competitive field, it's likely to be more lightly brushing up against other swimmers around you. |
| 2013-08-05 2:32 PM in reply to: jennifer_runs |
Champion 10018 , Minnesota Bronze member | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? This is so bizarre. I have done a LOT of triathlons. I've never really suffered a lot of problematic contact. Yes, I have grappled with various arms and legs and had my butt grabbed quite often. Almost all swims I have done I can't see my hand in front of my face, so people will pop up quickly before I can stop and change course. I had one guy swim right under me, perpendicular, at a turn buoy. I thought he was crazy, but now with more experience I wonder if he was taking a purposeful short cut. I think to swim over someone it's pretty intentional, even if I can't see anyone else in the water until I *almost* on top of them. The difference is do I decide to just keep going anyway? Or do I stop and change course? It's easy to talk about now, without the race adrenaline, etc. I stop and divert, but I am also quite slow and timid. I always start at the back, so I don't grapple with my heat, but I usually get a wave or two that catches up. So yeah, there is some etiquette and it's possible to mostly not swim like a jerk. It doesn't happen too badly very often, based on my own data set of 35ish something triathlons. I definitely wouldn't worry about it. |
| 2013-08-05 2:36 PM in reply to: noelle1230 |
| 928 | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? Originally posted by noelle1230 Originally posted by jennifer_runs Reading this thread has made me completely fear the open water swim. I'm a confident swimmer but I am not fast. I will happily start in the BOP but if some feels so entitled to swim over me and push me under water I think I'd be too happy. Don't be. I mean, even the strongest and most experienced of swimmers should still keep a healthy fear of the water, just like you would when riding on the road. The key is be prepared and get comfortable out there. There are plenty of not as competitive smaller local tris where you're not very likely to find anyone swimming *that* aggressively. Practice swimming with a partner close to shore where you can easily stand up and have he/she bump you, jostle you, maybe even swim over you. The idea is getting comfortable with it. You may well go out and have a whole season where you don't encounter anything like what you're reading in this thread. There will always be some amount of contact but unless you're in a super competitive field, it's likely to be more lightly brushing up against other swimmers around you. Thanks. As I said in my edit above, I have only done pool triathlons so far, and in those I am always passed at the beginning even though I seed myself exactly where my finish time ends up. It seems many people start fast and slow down whereas I swim pretty steady throughout-- are those faster people going to try to pass me by swimming over me in an OWS? I guess I will just start at the back and relax. p.s. I have a more experienced triathlete friend who has admitted to swimming over people in the pool while doing laps. I looked at him in disbelief when he told me this-- I hope he was exaggerating.  (maybe he'll read this....) That would certainly shock some of the swimmers in the pools that I go to. |
| 2013-08-05 2:38 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? Originally posted by Left Brain At the Jr. Elite race.... contact means very little to some foks and it can be debilitating to other people. It's triathlon. There are age group racers and then there are Jr Elite racers. I think most of us are the former. Congrats to Young Left Brain. |
| 2013-08-05 2:57 PM in reply to: mrbbrad |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim Etiquette? Is there really such a thing? Originally posted by mrbbrad Originally posted by Left Brain At the Jr. Elite race.... contact means very little to some foks and it can be debilitating to other people. It's triathlon. There are age group racers and then there are Jr Elite racers. I think most of us are the former. Congrats to Young Left Brain. Eh....the statement holds true for every level....some people just don't care at all about the contact....others do. It doesn't matter what you're racing for. There are Elite athletes who also dislike contact. No matter what, in a triathlon you should expect some contact. |
|
|
|
|
| |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
|
| ||||
|
| |||
|
| |||
|
|
View profile
Add to friends
Go to training log
Go to race log
Send a message
View album
CONNECT WITH FACEBOOK