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2014-02-10 4:28 PM
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Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training
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Edited by marcag 2014-02-10 4:38 PM


2014-02-10 7:01 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training

I'm doing Week 6, VO2 - 1 on Thursday -- let me know what I should target and I'll go for it.  Honestly, I tend to think there's a HUGE mental component to this.  Of course, who knows how well my 5' and 20' tests estimated my CP and W', or if improvements have been made since then.  I'd be curious what it feels like to truly run my battery out and see if I could mentally force my way through it.  

Kind of nervous about tomorrow's threshold ride.  All of the threshold rides so far have gone well, but tomorrow's makes me nervous for some reason!

2014-02-10 7:29 PM
in reply to: ligersandtions

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Subject: RE: Week 5 totals

Had a sick daughter 2 days last week that threw my training behind, and we went skiing Saturday throwing me another day off.  I completed Sweet Spot Week 5 this morning.  Didn't realize it was 1:45 and I had to cut off the last minutes of the workout to get ready for work.

Totals are as follows:

VO2 Max: TSS 70, NP 148

THR-1: TSS 101, NP 158

SWEET: TSS 126, NP 147

 

2014-02-10 7:49 PM
in reply to: ligersandtions

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Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training
Originally posted by ligersandtions

I'm doing Week 6, VO2 - 1 on Thursday -- let me know what I should target and I'll go for it.  Honestly, I tend to think there's a HUGE mental component to this.  Of course, who knows how well my 5' and 20' tests estimated my CP and W', or if improvements have been made since then.  I'd be curious what it feels like to truly run my battery out and see if I could mentally force my way through it.  

Kind of nervous about tomorrow's threshold ride.  All of the threshold rides so far have gone well, but tomorrow's makes me nervous for some reason!




Be afraid, very afraid...

Actually it wasn't really worse than the previous THR-1 workouts but this time I did it the day after my long run, that made it tougher. I usually stick a recovery run on the day between the long and the first bike workout. I wasn't able to hold the target values the way I wanted tonight. I'll see how the VO2-1 feels on Wednesday.
2014-02-10 10:39 PM
in reply to: cdkayak

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Oakville
Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training

Despite some malfunctions with GC, I managed to finish week 6 V02-1 tonight.

I had to pause it briefly after the initial 5' @ 98% segment but GC stopped registering power when it started up again. I tried to start over, but couldn't figure how to jump ahead in the workout.  So I quickly created a new workout for the rest of the session and here it is as 2 separate .tcx files.

Total TSS of 70.

Marc - still wrapping my head around the W' concept. I didn't feel exhausted after the 5th VO2 session, but it was a pretty tough workout.

Not feeling too optimistic about VO2-2 on Thursday.  My 5 minute power averaged at 246 watts or about 107% of my CP, so V02-2 is going to be pretty close to doing the 5 min test four times in a row.  Probably going to push me over the W' limit.





Attachments
----------------
WK6VO2A-2.tcx (1538KB - 4 downloads)
WK6VO2A-1.tcx (758KB - 4 downloads)
2014-02-11 6:02 AM
in reply to: Scott71

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Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training
Originally posted by Scott71
Not feeling too optimistic about VO2-2 on Thursday.  My 5 minute power averaged at 246 watts or about 107% of my CP, so V02-2 is going to be pretty close to doing the 5 min test four times in a row.  Probably going to push me over the W' limit.




Ya...I'm really looking forward to that one :-)

Yesterday was exceptional. I had the TV on because of the Olympics, but normally, i switch to music, switch to very specific playlists and go minute by minute. I find the 2nd to last always the hardest.

If ever we do this again, we have to make sure Shane does them along with us....maybe he'll go easier on us :-). When he sent me the workouts, I went "gulp", commented they were going to be tough and I could hear this virtual evil laugh coming from the East.

BUT, everyone will make it through them.


I found this picture yesterday and made it my screen backdrop



2014-02-11 6:32 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training

Originally posted by marcag and I could hear this virtual evil laugh coming from the East. 

Oops, that might have been me...  

The W' topic has been very interesting to me.  I've been using the dev build of GC that includes the W' metric and it seems to be reasonable for me except for when I do the short 5 x 10s all out intervals in a warmup.  I go negative on the W' by quite a bit every time.

2014-02-11 7:01 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training
Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by marcag and I could hear this virtual evil laugh coming from the East. 

Oops, that might have been me...  

The W' topic has been very interesting to me.  I've been using the dev build of GC that includes the W' metric and it seems to be reasonable for me except for when I do the short 5 x 10s all out intervals in a warmup.  I go negative on the W' by quite a bit every time.




Has the dev build been stable for you ? I put it on one machine and no problems so far.

Dr Skiba said "It appears it is possible to slightly break the model if you do lots of micro intervals (20 “on” 20 “off”. for instance)"

2014-02-11 7:05 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training
WK6 Threshold 1 Done. Tough but doable. Really worked to go hard on the 10" intervals during WU.



(2-11-14 Ride Details 2.PNG)



(2-11-14 Ride Graph.PNG)



(2-11-14 Ride Details.PNG)



Attachments
----------------
_2014-02-11-064022.fit (78KB - 3 downloads)
2-11-14 Ride Details 2.PNG (41KB - 5 downloads)
2-11-14 Ride Graph.PNG (72KB - 5 downloads)
2-11-14 Ride Details.PNG (43KB - 4 downloads)
2014-02-11 7:05 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Elite
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Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training

I've been running it on two PCs with the data synced between them using Google Drive.  I had one issue where it kept crashing on launch and I had to delete the index folder to force a statistics refresh but other than that I've had no trouble at all.

If you do go negative W' in a ride, GC will tell you what your minimum CP would have to be set to in order to keep W' above zero.  For my ride this morning it said min CP was 403w.  I can only dream.    I suspect my W' is set to low (at 17Kj) but that's what the calculator told me based on my 5' and 20' tests.

2014-02-11 7:07 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training
Originally posted by axteraa

I've been running it on two PCs with the data synced between them using Google Drive.  I had one issue where it kept crashing on launch and I had to delete the index folder to force a statistics refresh but other than that I've had no trouble at all.



I had the same problem. It would start refreshing my stats, then crash.


2014-02-11 7:21 AM
in reply to: cdkayak

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Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training

I think I was right to be nervous about this ride....though, I do wonder if knowing the ride going in and being nervous about it caused me to be more mentally okay with not doing as well as I could/should have??

The 5 x 4' intervals were all fine -- I was a few watts above targets for each (each interval was stronger than the previous one).  But when it came to the 15' interval, I just could not get my legs going.  It started quite low and built throughout, finishing at an average power of 93% instead of the targeted 95%.  Kind of disappointing....I suspect it was more mental than physical, but at the time, it sure felt like I couldn't get my legs to turn over.  Oh well, guess they can't all be great workouts, right?

2014-02-11 7:39 AM
in reply to: ligersandtions

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Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training
Originally posted by ligersandtions

I think I was right to be nervous about this ride....though, I do wonder if knowing the ride going in and being nervous about it caused me to be more mentally okay with not doing as well as I could/should have??

The 5 x 4' intervals were all fine -- I was a few watts above targets for each (each interval was stronger than the previous one).  But when it came to the 15' interval, I just could not get my legs going.  It started quite low and built throughout, finishing at an average power of 93% instead of the targeted 95%.  Kind of disappointing....I suspect it was more mental than physical, but at the time, it sure felt like I couldn't get my legs to turn over.  Oh well, guess they can't all be great workouts, right?




Nicole, we've all been there. Sounds like you did a good job. 93% isn't bad for a finishing interval after hitting the 5x4. I couldn't tell you how many times I've blown to pieces in a workout. Like you said, they can't all be great. If they all went to spec, then it probably means you aren't pushing yourself hard enough (or have an underestimated ftp). Doing a lot of Sufferfest videos on trainerroad, I've come to accept that I'm just not going to execute every one perfectly. I've even thrown up a couple of times this winter on the trainer trying to hit the numbers. Sometimes you are a little fatigued and it just isn't going to happen.
2014-02-11 8:16 AM
in reply to: dtoce

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Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training
Originally posted by dtoce

I was thinking these were much more like Billat 30/30-all out efforts than like Daniel's reps, which are controlled a quick. Billat wanted to get her athlete's at MAX, then let them incompletely recover to be able to get back to max quickly and keep the enzymes etc turned on. Mini-breaks to allow longer vo2max improvements at the cellular/muscle level, well, at least that's what I think...


That was really what I was curious about - were these like the Billat type efforts where it was hard/easy but with the goal of keeping metabolism close to VO2max levels throughout or was it more like the R pace running where one goes fast for a short duration and with a long recovery. I think both have their place within an endurance program but for most, the 30/30 is likely going to be more beneficial.

I'm just thinking that using this could really prevent detraining during 'off periods', even if it doesn't allow progression. There is always a loss of race specificity with loss of volume training also, along with aerobic capacity, but this tiny study seems to suggest that there is even a benefit/improvement, so if there is a huge decrease in time, doing 2-3x1/2hr trainer workouts with 5x30sec max might possibly maybe prevent detraining.


It would be interesting to see how this would work longitudinally in terms of at least mitigating losses in periods of lower training. I think the challenge would be truly going hard enough during the hard efforts as I suspect that the encouragement they were given during these efforts would play a large role in being able to hit these efforts.

Shane
2014-02-11 8:19 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training
Originally posted by marcag

If ever we do this again, we have to make sure Shane does them along with us....maybe he'll go easier on us :-). When he sent me the workouts, I went "gulp", commented they were going to be tough and I could hear this virtual evil laugh coming from the East.

BUT, everyone will make it through them.


Great picture!

Sorry, I have no trainer at the moment (all sitting in the houses of junior development athletes at the moment) but I am riding through the cold and snow if that makes anyone feel any better!

-12C and felt like -20C for my ride in this morning - fleece bibs were not quite enough today!

Shane
2014-02-11 8:22 AM
in reply to: ligersandtions

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Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training
Originally posted by ligersandtions

I think I was right to be nervous about this ride....though, I do wonder if knowing the ride going in and being nervous about it caused me to be more mentally okay with not doing as well as I could/should have??

The 5 x 4' intervals were all fine -- I was a few watts above targets for each (each interval was stronger than the previous one).  But when it came to the 15' interval, I just could not get my legs going.  It started quite low and built throughout, finishing at an average power of 93% instead of the targeted 95%.  Kind of disappointing....I suspect it was more mental than physical, but at the time, it sure felt like I couldn't get my legs to turn over.  Oh well, guess they can't all be great workouts, right?




You are correct, they can't all be great workouts and we often will learn more from the workouts or races in which we fail than those in which we perform well.

At this point it is likely a combination of the fact that we are at the end of a solid block of training and, with this being the last week before testing, the jump from last week to this week as a little bigger than we have been doing before we will take an easier workout to start the week next week and then complete the two tests.

Hope the rest of the week goes well,

Shane


2014-02-11 9:13 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod


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Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training
I let Week 6 Threshold 1 be my wake up call today and a wake up it was. Did good in the all out efforts and then the over threshold intervals really started to hurt by the end. That 1 min rest between was just a tease and then right back at it. Was ready for the recovery but that last 15 was staring at me like "Bring It". Found my cadence and hung on. For me this was probably one of the tougher ones. I suspect because I did it just after rolling out of the bed and on zero nutrition. I have to take a thyroid pill that wants you to wait 30 min before eating. Anyway, feels good to be done.

TSS = 107

Ron



Attachments
----------------
Ron-2014-02-11-bt-power-week-6-thr-1-733668.tcx (2005KB - 3 downloads)
2014-02-11 9:59 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training
Originally posted by gsmacleod

-12C and felt like -20C for my ride in this morning - fleece bibs were not quite enough today!



Canadians are tough as nails. That's why we are kicking butt at the Olympics :-)


If Canada play the US in the hockey final we should do a special trainer session

We ride all game
Z2 during the period. Sweet spot between periods
If Canada scores, US members have to do 4min VO2, and vice versa.
Penalties : 2min VO2 for the country that gets the penalty
If we go into shoot outs. 30s intervals all out for each shoot out.
Loser gets an extra 10' threshold at the end

Brings cheering for your team to a whole new level
2014-02-11 10:02 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by gsmacleod -12C and felt like -20C for my ride in this morning - fleece bibs were not quite enough today!
Canadians are tough as nails. That's why we are kicking butt at the Olympics :-) If Canada play the US in the hockey final we should do a special trainer session We ride all game Z2 during the period. Sweet spot between periods If Canada scores, US members have to do 4min VO2, and vice versa. Penalties : 2min VO2 for the country that gets the penalty If we go into shoot outs. 30s intervals all out for each shoot out. Loser gets an extra 10' threshold at the end Brings cheering for your team to a whole new level

A powerplay goal would suck - 6 min VO2!

2014-02-11 11:17 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by gsmacleod -12C and felt like -20C for my ride in this morning - fleece bibs were not quite enough today!
Canadians are tough as nails. That's why we are kicking butt at the Olympics :-) If Canada play the US in the hockey final we should do a special trainer session We ride all game Z2 during the period. Sweet spot between periods If Canada scores, US members have to do 4min VO2, and vice versa. Penalties : 2min VO2 for the country that gets the penalty If we go into shoot outs. 30s intervals all out for each shoot out. Loser gets an extra 10' threshold at the end Brings cheering for your team to a whole new level
I'll be USA loyal but will purposely cheer for the Canadians, because it seems that every team I've cheered for the past year has come out on the losing end!

2014-02-11 11:41 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Lincoln, Nebraska
Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by gsmacleod -12C and felt like -20C for my ride in this morning - fleece bibs were not quite enough today!
Canadians are tough as nails. That's why we are kicking butt at the Olympics :-) If Canada play the US in the hockey final we should do a special trainer session We ride all game Z2 during the period. Sweet spot between periods If Canada scores, US members have to do 4min VO2, and vice versa. Penalties : 2min VO2 for the country that gets the penalty If we go into shoot outs. 30s intervals all out for each shoot out. Loser gets an extra 10' threshold at the end Brings cheering for your team to a whole new level

This sounds like fun, and so much better/healthier than the ol' college days where shots were the selected punishment. :-)  I don't watch much TV, but I did see the Canadians were doing fairly good in the medal count.  I thought I heard the radio guy say that the US has moved up to 4th for medal count.  You Canadians have the upper hand at cold weather stuff. :-D

I did ski this past weekend and pretended I was in the Olympics.  I won gold.



2014-02-11 11:42 AM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training

I did wk4 Thrs1 last night.  Had weird ride, after the 30' intervals and into 1st interval I was not feeling well and was struggling.  Did a spindown check at the end of the interval to make sure it wasn't trainer/bike related.  During the recovery interval I realized that I did not have enough to eat during the day.  I didn't have my normal breakfast (breakfast bar only) as I rushed to get daughter to AM track practice which and also forgot my fruits in my lunch (sandwich and yogurt only).  Work was non-stop and I didn't have any dinner before riding.  I took a quick break and ate a banana and slice of bread with peanut butter.  About halfway through the 2nd interval, wallah, the energy returned and I was able to finish out the ride.  Lesson learned, these rides are tough enough! 

TSS was 87.





Attachments
----------------
2014-02-10 BTWK4-THR1.csv (151KB - 3 downloads)
2014-02-11 12:16 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Houston, Texas
Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training

Originally posted by gsmacleod
Originally posted by ligersandtions

I think I was right to be nervous about this ride....though, I do wonder if knowing the ride going in and being nervous about it caused me to be more mentally okay with not doing as well as I could/should have??

The 5 x 4' intervals were all fine -- I was a few watts above targets for each (each interval was stronger than the previous one).  But when it came to the 15' interval, I just could not get my legs going.  It started quite low and built throughout, finishing at an average power of 93% instead of the targeted 95%.  Kind of disappointing....I suspect it was more mental than physical, but at the time, it sure felt like I couldn't get my legs to turn over.  Oh well, guess they can't all be great workouts, right?

You are correct, they can't all be great workouts and we often will learn more from the workouts or races in which we fail than those in which we perform well. At this point it is likely a combination of the fact that we are at the end of a solid block of training and, with this being the last week before testing, the jump from last week to this week as a little bigger than we have been doing before we will take an easier workout to start the week next week and then complete the two tests. Hope the rest of the week goes well, Shane

I thought a lot about why that 15' interval was so hard for me as I was writing in my training log this morning, and I think I may have figured something out.  For my 101% intervals, I was in one gear harder, holding a cadence of 89 - 90.  If I'd stayed in that gear for the 95% interval, my cadence would have been in the low 80's, which isn't within my preferred range....so I dropped down to one gear easier, which required a cadence of 96 - 97 if I wanted to hold the prescribed power.

Needless to say, my legs just weren't up to spinning that fast.  I can post my .tcx file and/or a screen shot when I get home tonight, but my power built throughout the entire 15' interval.  By the end, my legs were spinning fine and my HR was 10 bpm lower than LTHR (8 bpm lower than where it had been on the last 101% interval), so relatively comfortable.  I think my legs were just in shock and rebelling!  At least that's my hope

Now that I know this about myself, here's to hoping I have good gearing for St. George.  I have limited opportunities to train on hills between now and then, but I suspect I won't be able to maintain a comfortable cadence of 95 throughout the entire race, so I've gotta learn to deal with it!

2014-02-11 1:15 PM
in reply to: ligersandtions

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Subject: RE: Cadence/Efficiency
Originally posted by ligersandtions
For my 101% intervals, I was in one gear harder, holding a cadence of 89 - 90.  If I'd stayed in that gear for the 95% interval, my cadence would have been in the low 80's, which isn't within my preferred range....so I dropped down to one gear easier, which required a cadence of 96 - 97 if I wanted to hold the prescribed power.

Needless to say, my legs just weren't up to spinning that fast. 
p>



This brings up another question...are we going to get any enlightenment regarding quadrant analysis, cadence and pedal stroke/crank torque?

It seems that this is something that we look at, compare to when racing and then try to match training to fit the courses races, no?
There is no other usefulness that I see other than seeing if you are a 'masher' or 'spinner' and that data is fairly apparent by our 'self selected cadence'.
2014-02-11 2:08 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: High Intensity Bike Training

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by gsmacleod -12C and felt like -20C for my ride in this morning - fleece bibs were not quite enough today!
Canadians are tough as nails. That's why we are kicking butt at the Olympics :-) If Canada play the US in the hockey final we should do a special trainer session

Um...yeah...I think I'll just ride outside instead.  

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