Coaching costs (Page 2)

I'm of the opinion that prebuilt plans actually are very good for AGers. Yes, selection of the plan takes some experience and skill that may requier a newb to get some help, but prebuilt plans (like EN) when selected correctly, provide excellent training for very low cost. 

In a world of limitless possibilities, I think it would be a fair expectation to compare the results of a coach with an athlete vs that athlete's performance using a prebuilt plan to determine the value of the coaching. I would fully expect a range here as well - some folks would do terrible sticking to a plan and do great with the cheerleading of a coach, whereas some self-motivated folks might even have better results with a prebuilt plan that doesn't let them ever slack off or talk their way out of harder workouts.

Here are some coaching programs in my area for reference.

This is what the coach I used is now charging:

Month-to-month triathlon training
$250 first month, $200 each month after

Includes:
Custom training plan in 4-week blocks, custom training zones
Daily changes if needed
Race day nutrition plan
Training Peaks Premium account
Unlimited phone/email communication
Swim video analysis
Pay as you go/cancel any time

Another program in my area:

$180 per month for 70.3 training includes:
6-9 hours per week of coached team training opportunities
Monthly training plan
Training Peaks account
Unlimited email/phone communication
Team visor

$240 per month for 140.6 training includes:
6-12 hours per week of coached training opportunities
Monthly training plan
Training Peaks account
Unlimited email/phone communication
Team visor

$120 per month for Saturday-only training includes:
Coached and safety supported open water swims
Followed by group bike rides

Lisa - how did your coach come up with "custom training zones" for you?

Yeah, but when those same great athletes have also coached champions you really get the best of both worlds. I looked for coaches with great results and high performance backgrounds because I wanted that experience of moving up to elite level to be a part of the knowledge he gains from the coaches.  Again, you mostly have to search these folks out.....they don't advertise.

I voted too expensive on the other thread because my expecations of a coach would be pretty high.  I don't want a cookie cutter plan, or cookie cutter responses to questions.  I can get that on the internet for free.    I'm not looking for a coach who has a full time job and has 20 clients.  If a coach only has 10-15 hours per week to coach 20 people...that's only 30-45 minutes of attention per week that I get.  Good luck analyzing 12 workouts, modifying or tweaking my upcoming workouts, and communicating with me in that short a time frame.

So likely a coach I would be looking for is either coaching full time, or only has a full time job but only coaches 5-7 athletes on the side.  Thus allowing him/her to spend 1-2 hours of solid individual time on each athlete.  That comes with a price though as the coach still needs to earn a decent wage per hour of their time.

I know some coaches that don't focus on the one on one attention or workout analysis.  They are pretty up front about it, but rather focus on group workouts and creating general plans for people that are all doing the same race together.  So they can take on 20 clients, do 5-7 hours a week of group workouts, and spend another 3-5 hours a week giving brief feedback and plan changes to the athletes that may need it.  So they can get away with only coaching 10 hours a week for 20 clients...and charge roughly $75-100 a month.  Which is not bad when you do the math.  That's around $35-50 an hour for the coaches time.  Some people like this type of coaching, but it's not something I'm interested in.

So in the mean time, I'll keep picking my low hanging fruit that I don't need a coach to point out.  Right now the value isn't there for what I'm looking for.

D3 has been writing plans and covering the BT athletes for a long time now. We have literally helped THOUSANDS of athletes have great races, seasons, PRs, Kona qualifiers and so on. To say one person had a bad experience is actually pretty good if you consider how many people we've helped here over the last decade.

Most of the information we have is from what the athletes' input is - if we don't get information like HR/ Power / how they felt etc- then it's tough to give great feedback.

For $35/month to ask certified USAT Coaches any question you like, and get the option to countless plans is probably the best deal on the internet. I don't think most people really understand how much value they are getting from BT.

For a coach that wants to actually eat, pay a mortgage, maybe retire someday, send their kids to college and drive a car that's less than 10 years old, you would need to charge at least $50/hour for the 6-8 hours a month you are interacting with your athlete. That's $300/month. On top of the above expenses, you still have to worry about marketing, writing, CEU's, paying for certifications, upkeep on a website, insurance, mentoring, volunteering and in person coaching. Even at $300/month x 10 athletes is only $3,000 a month. That's not a lot to live off folks and that's why coaches charge what they do. How much does a top CPA, Lawyer or Plumber get in their industry? I can't get a plumber to walk into my house in Boulder for less than $75 and that's just to access the problem, not actually fix it.

I also loved the post from the member who said you don't need to be certified - would you hire an attorney, Dr or plumber who wasn't certified? I highly doubt it, so why would you hire a coach who wasn't certified. If someone is truly passionate and good at what they do, they are certified through the federation they represent. Not to say there aren't good coaches who aren't certified - but I wouldn't hire just anyone.

It is obvious to me that most people on this thread under value coaching, and that's fine. Not everyone is coachable, and not everyone needs eye glasses or needs to visit a cobbler. There are a lot of great coaches out there, and a few on this website - they are about helping their athletes and they've made a business out their passion. There are also a lot of coaches who charge too little for their services. Like any industry, over time the cream rises to the top and the best coaches will be paid accordingly while the coaches who don't continue to get better and provide excellent customer services to their athletes will continue to charge what they are worth - very little. This is no different than any industry.

The funny thing is that almost everyone reading this thread wouldn't be involved in triathlon if they didn't have coaching along the way, at some age, at some level. ;-)

He looked at my past performance + goals and came up with target paces for each workout (bike and run only... swim had specific drills/sets but we were more focused on bike and run).

Gotcha....thanks.

Just wondering what gives you this obvious impression.  Seems to me the only way to see this is to understand all the variables that go into an individual's calculation of value.  I can't imagine you can see that here.  Sort of like trying to give great coaching feedback when you don't have all the athletes' input. 

To be clear, I understand perfectly WHY a coach might need to charge $x.  But whether that is a good value and worth it to an individual will depend upon their particular circumstances.

BTW, congrats on the recent recognition!  I have no doubt that (for the right athletes) you provide great value for your services.

In my case, I don't think I undervalue coaching. It's just that triathlon does not rate that high of a priority in my life in any form at the moment. It is recreation. I don't even pay for races. I volunteer and race for free or a discounted rate for the majority of my events. If you tell me all my local races are going to shut down and I will have to travel 2 hours, pay for lodging, and races fees to be able to continue racing then it is likely that  I won't bother. Other things in my life take up a lot of time, energy, money (kids, kids and kids LOL). Triathlon (or swimming, and cycling which is all I am doing right now) is just something I do. It's not what drives me. Does that make sense?

So what would I pay for coaching? Nothing and that is not meant to belittle any of the coaches out there. There are just higher ranking priorities in my life that eat up our disposable income and available time - like horse riding lessons for a 7 year old .

I probably should change my answer in the other thread from expense to priorities.

I absolutely value coaching. But I feel undervalued as a client.  It hasn't been worth my money. It is a local coach, and I feel those with more money to do more races, get a power tap, get the vo2max test etc and those that are faster get more time. 

I'd just like a customized plan and be able to say, today my back aches, how should I adjust?  I can do vdot tests and ftp tests on my own and give numbers and use those zones. I don't think thats a lot to ask for $150/month.

But it could also be a product of where I live. Most folks that do triathlon in this area have a ton of money, and have no problem dropping $1000 on a week training camp for a goal race.  For me, thats basically my race fund for the year.

Not everyone but a few folks - I don't take it personally, but when you've had a good coach, you'd know it.

Anyone can self test and adjust zones and read books, but most people are not going to do the hard workouts that they need to do. A hard workout for one person may be 30x30" at VO2 max and for someone else it may be running slow for an hour. It just depends, but having someone to hold you accountable goes a long way.

Thanks for the congrats. That means a lot.

This makes complete sense to me. No offense taken but what you are saying I agree 100%.

I don't think you've found the right coach then! For $150 we certainly deliver more than what you are asking for. This is what makes the internet so cool. Your coach doesn't have to live where you do anymore.

'You're 100% right that you can do the tests on your own, I agree with that!

I've had good coaches (and some not so good ones).  Just not in triathlon (not a paid triathlon coach at any rate--have benefitted from the knowledge of many, including you). 

Anyway, don't disagree that having someone to hold you accountable can go a long way.  A good coach can help any athlete (although a good coach for one athlete may, or may not, be a good one for another--not all are flexible enough).  My point was mostly the one that trigal made.  Just because a coach can help, doesn't mean it's something that you should spend your next dollar on.  That depends on your priorities (and how much spending money you have to go around!) 

How does a triathlete tell the difference between a good coach and a poor one?

Try one. Or two. Or three. The first coach I tried, well, he wasn't all that great. There were a few giant red flags - one was that I had a drill weekend with a PT test scheduled. Drill was canceled during the govt shutdown, and he didn’t alter my training weekend at all. I still ran an all-out two miler because he told me to. I could have had a much more effective training weekend. He also had me doing workouts where I varied my stride a lot – and I told him my hips were sore after, and he gave me the workout again later, with no explanation as to why.

A good coach can tell you the why behind a workout, in my opinion. I've felt crappy going into a workout, and I've told my coach. She responds with why the workout matters and what they key points are - so if I can't execute it as to the plan, I can at least try to hit the main goal of the workout. 

How does one of your athletes measure if you have done a good job?

It’s on their own scale. From the athlete perspective: do I get the attention I feel I deserve? Does the coach understand my goals? Do I get regular feedback? Are my workouts interesting, challenging? Am I improving? Do I enjoy my training?

Can any coach be as effective with a beginner as they can with a MOP or a pro?

Not any – which is why some focus on pros, some focus on MOP/BOP. As a coach, that’s great for me. I can accept a client I think I can effectively coach, and reject ones that I do not feel that way about. If a pro approached me about coaching, I’d probably just laugh. But if you’re MOP, let’s talk… or BOP, or even FOP at smaller events. If you’re FOP at IM, I’m not the coach you want. I do not have the experience/knowledge to believe I can effectively train you... yet.

Can any coach be as effective with three athletes who each are most deficient in a different one of the three disciplines?

Yes! And that can be more fun, too, for the coach. When athletes have different strengths/deficits, I’ve got room to be creative and I get variability between my athletes. I love writing swim workouts for and doing one on one sessions with new swimmers. I also love when I get a proficient swimmer because I can drop my focus there (send them to master’s, fill in with workouts when needed) and focus more elsewhere. It keeps it interesting for me.  

I agree with your comments, but your not seeing the point - a coach, with experience, probably can add more value to your life (maybe change your life for the better!) than someone who rings up your milk and bread at the convenience store, correct? Those people aren't paid $50/hr b/c it's not a highly sought after skill. Same as a good car mechanic vs a sub par one. Would you trust a plumber to come into your house and only charge you $25? I'd be pretty weary.

I agree on the curdled milk - I've been through that with products and even coaches who washed out with us. I take who works for us pretty seriously.

To answer your questions:

How does a triathlete tell the difference between a good coach and a poor one?
>>> How their athletes talk about him/her. Do they make a difference? Are they well prepared on race day? Do they understand what they are supposed to do in training and are they taught to execute the race plan on race day? A good coach will have an athlete prepared to do their best.

How do you articulate your value proposition?
??

How does one of your athletes measure if you have done a good job?
>>>Completely personal. Some people want to improve every year, some people want to qualify for a specific event. Older athletes may be happy just not slowing down. It depends to be honest.

Can any coach be as effective with a beginner as they can with a MOP or a pro?
>>>Absolutely not. It's a different skill set for both. Can someone who coaches a pro, easily coach a beginner? I say no.

Can any coach be as effective with three athletes who each are most deficient in a different one of the three disciplines?
>>>I hope so or they shouldn't be coaching triathletes!

Have you considered Physical Therapy to re-make your run?  Especially if you have had major surgery maybe your insurance would pay for it (some of it).  My oldest daughter had 3 marathons under her belt when she went through a really tough injury period related to her hip flexors.  She spent 2 months with regular physical therapy with the expressed goal of being able to run a marathon again.  She came out of those 2 months with a completely re-made run form.....I call her a "shuffler" now, but she ran a 4:06 marathon after PT and training back up to it.  She's not setting the world on fire with her running, but she runs pain free and nearly as fast as she was pre injury.  Just a thought and I know I have now got off topic of my own topic.