login
Sleeved Tri Suits
-
No new posts
|
 2016-02-09 9:08 AM |
 1502   Katy, Texas |  Subject: Sleeved Tri SuitsThis came up at the end of another thread, and thought that it might warrant its own. Can anyone explain sleeved tri suits? From my understanding they are better aerodynamically on the bike and all the pros seem to wear them but they have just recently been made legal for non-wetsuit WTC events. So a couple of questions: Are they indeed faster on the bike? How much? (I realize this is a loaded question) Do people swim with them? Obviously the pros didn't swim with the sleeves prior to the rule change and I can't imagine they changed close in transition, so do they roll up the sleeves? It seems to me that it would slow down the swim but if it helps enough on the bike, it could be worth it for someone like me who is a strong swimmer but needs all the help I can get on the bike leg. I'm hesitant to go with sleeves, but with my recent purchase of a power meter, I am quickly realizing the effect that clothing has on the bike. Edited by 3mar 2016-02-09 9:09 AM |
| 2016-02-09 9:20 AM in reply to: 3mar |
360  Ottawa, Ontario | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits Originally posted by 3mar Are they indeed faster on the bike? How much? (I realize this is a loaded question) The answer, as it so often is when it comes to aerodynamics, is "it depends". Different suits test faster for different riders. What works well for one may actually be worse than a sleeveless suit for another. The only way to know for sure is to test. But from what I can see, if the suit fits nice and tight and doesn't have any wrinkles around the arms, you could be looking at 8-15 watts. Originally posted by 3mar Do people swim with them? Obviously the pros didn't swim with the sleeves prior to the rule change and I can't imagine they changed close in transition, so do they roll up the sleeves? Some people do swim with them all the way on, though many seem to find them restrictive in the arms. They're meant to be tight and aero on the bike, not mobile/loose for swimming. Most people seem to have the top half off and rolled down to the waist for the swim - after you're out of the water and unzip your wetsuit/swimskin, you pull on the sleeves on the way to T1. |
| 2016-02-09 9:45 AM in reply to: 0 |
Champion 9407  Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits The sleeves will generally be more aero however, if the suit is tight enough to be aerodynamically favourable it will probably be way too tight to swim and and possibly uncomfortable for running. So for short course, I would skip the sleeves - a very tight ITU legal suit is probably your best bet. Tuck the zipper in before the swim and double check that it is still tucked prior to the ride. Unzip as desired during the run. For long and ultra distance, the best bet is probably a swim skin over the sleeved suit but with the top rolled down. As you exit the water and head to transition, get the swim skin down around your waist and start struggling to get into the sleeves. Again, a big issue is going to be if it fits well enough to be faster than a normal suit, you are probably going to have trouble getting it on by yourself. Then, I would plan to run in something else - singlet and run shorts so you are more comfortable on the run. Shane Edited by gsmacleod 2016-02-09 9:47 AM |
| 2016-02-09 9:47 AM in reply to: 3mar |
| Member 587 | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits It is my understanding that to be of any value on the bike the sleeves will be too tight/constrictive to swim with the top on. Up until now the sleeved suit was worn rolled down under the wetsuit. Now with the rule change I wonder if a clothing company will develop a top that can be used on both the swim & bike. |
| 2016-02-10 9:20 AM in reply to: gsmacleod |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits Originally posted by gsmacleod The sleeves will generally be more aero however, if the suit is tight enough to be aerodynamically favourable it will probably be way too tight to swim and and possibly uncomfortable for running. So for short course, I would skip the sleeves - a very tight ITU legal suit is probably your best bet. Tuck the zipper in before the swim and double check that it is still tucked prior to the ride. Unzip as desired during the run. For long and ultra distance, the best bet is probably a swim skin over the sleeved suit but with the top rolled down. As you exit the water and head to transition, get the swim skin down around your waist and start struggling to get into the sleeves. Again, a big issue is going to be if it fits well enough to be faster than a normal suit, you are probably going to have trouble getting it on by yourself. Then, I would plan to run in something else - singlet and run shorts so you are more comfortable on the run. Shane In that case, I think I will forgo the sleves given my struggles in transition, and having faught with wet triathlon clothing before. Maybe I'll revisit it for IMFL. |
| 2016-02-10 9:49 AM in reply to: 0 |
| 1300 | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits Originally posted by gsmacleod The sleeves will generally be more aero however, if the suit is tight enough to be aerodynamically favourable it will probably be way too tight to swim and and possibly uncomfortable for running. Shane What if the suit is not tight enough. For example if I wore one for sun protection vs aerodynamics. Would it be detrimental on the bike? ETA - I'm saying just loose enough to get on without a major struggle. Not flapping in the wind like a tech shirt. My only interest in a sleeved top is not getting burned in spots I have difficulty reaching with sun screen. I know the easy fix is changing in T1 and T2 in longer races but I prefer to keep everything to a minimum if possible. Edited by Goggles Pizzano 2016-02-10 9:50 AM |
| 2016-02-10 11:54 AM in reply to: Goggles Pizzano |
Master 2429 Falls Church, Virginia | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano Originally posted by gsmacleod The sleeves will generally be more aero however, if the suit is tight enough to be aerodynamically favourable it will probably be way too tight to swim and and possibly uncomfortable for running. Shane What if the suit is not tight enough. For example if I wore one for sun protection vs aerodynamics. Would it be detrimental on the bike? ETA - I'm saying just loose enough to get on without a major struggle. Not flapping in the wind like a tech shirt. My only interest in a sleeved top is not getting burned in spots I have difficulty reaching with sun screen. I know the easy fix is changing in T1 and T2 in longer races but I prefer to keep everything to a minimum if possible. That's what I was thinking when I clicked on this thread. Sun protection is more important to me, long term, than being aero. I'm interested what others have to say on that side of it. |
| 2016-02-10 12:17 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
| 240 | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits Originally posted by gsmacleod The sleeves will generally be more aero however, if the suit is tight enough to be aerodynamically favourable it will probably be way too tight to swim and and possibly uncomfortable for running. So for short course, I would skip the sleeves - a very tight ITU legal suit is probably your best bet. Tuck the zipper in before the swim and double check that it is still tucked prior to the ride. Unzip as desired during the run. For long and ultra distance, the best bet is probably a swim skin over the sleeved suit but with the top rolled down. As you exit the water and head to transition, get the swim skin down around your waist and start struggling to get into the sleeves. Again, a big issue is going to be if it fits well enough to be faster than a normal suit, you are probably going to have trouble getting it on by yourself. Then, I would plan to run in something else - singlet and run shorts so you are more comfortable on the run. Shane ^^^ This. I switched to sleeved suit for 70.3 and 140.6 races. A well fitting sleeved top is faster than bare skin. Roll top down for swim either with skin or wetsuit. If cooler race, I use sun sleeves under wetsuit and it makes easy to get top on while heading to T1. You can also use plastic grocery bags. Put them on your arms and then slide sleeves on. Have tried this a couple times and it works pretty good. Otherwise I spend extra time trying to get the sleeves just right over wet arms. I have been comfortable on runs with even the tightest top. By unzipping halfway, I have never had any issues. |
| 2016-02-10 12:32 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits Originally posted by StevenC Originally posted by gsmacleod The sleeves will generally be more aero however, if the suit is tight enough to be aerodynamically favourable it will probably be way too tight to swim and and possibly uncomfortable for running. So for short course, I would skip the sleeves - a very tight ITU legal suit is probably your best bet. Tuck the zipper in before the swim and double check that it is still tucked prior to the ride. Unzip as desired during the run. For long and ultra distance, the best bet is probably a swim skin over the sleeved suit but with the top rolled down. As you exit the water and head to transition, get the swim skin down around your waist and start struggling to get into the sleeves. Again, a big issue is going to be if it fits well enough to be faster than a normal suit, you are probably going to have trouble getting it on by yourself. Then, I would plan to run in something else - singlet and run shorts so you are more comfortable on the run. Shane ^^^ This. I switched to sleeved suit for 70.3 and 140.6 races. A well fitting sleeved top is faster than bare skin. Roll top down for swim either with skin or wetsuit. If cooler race, I use sun sleeves under wetsuit and it makes easy to get top on while heading to T1. You can also use plastic grocery bags. Put them on your arms and then slide sleeves on. Have tried this a couple times and it works pretty good. Otherwise I spend extra time trying to get the sleeves just right over wet arms. I have been comfortable on runs with even the tightest top. By unzipping halfway, I have never had any issues. Personally I think the "tightness" is being over emphasized. I have tested an LG top in xsmall, small and medium and they had similar aero properties. I couldn't breath in a XS and it was going to explode it was so tight. But t has no wrinkles. Neither did the S or M. There was no measurable aero difference between them. I swam in a small, shoulders on, under a wetsuit with no restriction. I know Nicole did the same. I wore a medium under a skinsuit and put it on while running to T1. A small would have been 'fun' to get on. There are athletes that do not feel contriicted in the shoulders. But there are athletes that don't like it. You have to try it on and it depends on the fit. Tightness is one way to get rid of wrinkles. Tailoring is another. There has to be a balance between saying the initial 10watts and then the incremental 1watt to get it super tight. Balance all that with actually getting it on or off if you need to use the facilities. As far as running in it, no problem, for a half at least. Edited by marcag 2016-02-10 12:35 PM |
| 2016-02-10 3:18 PM in reply to: marcag |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits just shave your arms |
| 2016-02-10 4:07 PM in reply to: marcag |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits Originally posted by marcag Personally I think the "tightness" is being over emphasized. I have tested an LG top in xsmall, small and medium and they had similar aero properties. I couldn't breath in a XS and it was going to explode it was so tight. But t has no wrinkles. Neither did the S or M. There was no measurable aero difference between them. I swam in a small, shoulders on, under a wetsuit with no restriction. I know Nicole did the same. I wore a medium under a skinsuit and put it on while running to T1. A small would have been 'fun' to get on. There are athletes that do not feel contriicted in the shoulders. But there are athletes that don't like it. You have to try it on and it depends on the fit. Tightness is one way to get rid of wrinkles. Tailoring is another. There has to be a balance between saying the initial 10watts and then the incremental 1watt to get it super tight. Balance all that with actually getting it on or off if you need to use the facilities. As far as running in it, no problem, for a half at least. Interesting - I've only heard reports from those who had used them and not actually worn one myself. Thanks for sharing, Shane |
| 2016-02-10 4:35 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits Originally posted by gsmacleod Interesting - I've only heard reports from those who had used them and not actually worn one myself. Thanks for sharing, Shane Here is the log sheet from the Velodrome Run 32 is with a DeSoto ITU suit, very tight, shoulders not covered Run 36 is with a LG M2, top (not suit), that I also wore during a swim under wetsuit I had to blank out parts of the report for the other rider's privacy We ended up going down to .242 on page 2. From the .294 baseline that's 70watts albeit the .294 baseline was bad. By run 16 I was in the .27x which is probably typical of an eyeball adjusted guy that follows the ST best practices :-) The other guy started at .27x and he is a provincial TT champ, RAAM finisher....He went from .279 to .246. At his speeds that's 65w. Edited by marcag 2016-02-10 5:05 PM (4pm-8pm_logsheet1.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 4pm-8pm_logsheet1.jpg (1413KB - 26 downloads) |
| 2016-02-10 5:10 PM in reply to: #5166153 |
Extreme Veteran 1648 | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits Any word if these will be legal in Xterra races? I also have trouble getting burned and have thought of switching to a sleeved top. |
| 2016-02-10 5:37 PM in reply to: marcag |
| 240 | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits Yes, saw similar results when I tested last year. with a San Remo sleeveless, had .292 CDA baseline and then with both M2 and Cuore full suits it dropped to .276. We managed to make other changes to position and equipment to knock that down to .26 but the suit was the single biggest difference maker of all 10 runs. More than helmet, bar angle, hydration, etc combined. At my IM power, that worked out to 8 min savings for suit alone. |
| 2016-02-10 5:55 PM in reply to: StevenC |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits Originally posted by StevenC Yes, saw similar results when I tested last year. with a San Remo sleeveless, had .292 CDA baseline and then with both M2 and Cuore full suits it dropped to .276. We managed to make other changes to position and equipment to knock that down to .26 but the suit was the single biggest difference maker of all 10 runs. More than helmet, bar angle, hydration, etc combined. At my IM power, that worked out to 8 min savings for suit alone. In our mentor group we did an analysis of how to measure this stuff I find it's ashamed that people throw away money on stuff that doesn't work, and don't want to hear what does work. There is a lot of snake oil there. There's a lot of bad info. There is a lot of regurgitation of BS. It's too bad people don't learn how to measure it for themselves, figure out what is snake oil and what isn't. Or at least turn to the people that can help them. That being said, there are top 10 Kona finishers that are throwing away dozens and dozens of watts This dude was smart enough to realize. Step 1 was a fit for aero, step 2 is the velodrome https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNZhcWcp0DMzqQZCP39lEXvMAwZdGuE... But a good chunk of his savings could be found testing on their own. |
| 2016-02-10 6:10 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Pro 5361 | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits I've got a Pearl Iz. Octane. No problem swimming with it (with or without a wetsuit), no problem on the run. I guess it's faster on the bike. Fit's well. seems aero. cooler than it looks. very comfortable (YMMV) |
| 2016-02-11 12:27 PM in reply to: morey000 |
| 409 Durham, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits Purely for dealing with the sun I was thinking about doing something like the De Soto cool wings https://www.desotosport.com/product/CWSDSand probably their legs thing too. I thought I would have to only do wetsuit legal swims so I wouldn't have to fuss with it in transition and I could just wear it under my suit. I've tried to find long sleeved suits since I have lupus and need to stay out of the sun, but I didn't find any options. Hopefully with these changes there will be more options soon. |
| 2016-02-13 5:53 PM in reply to: marcag |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits Originally posted by marcag Here is the log sheet from the Velodrome Run 32 is with a DeSoto ITU suit, very tight, shoulders not covered Run 36 is with a LG M2, top (not suit), that I also wore during a swim under wetsuit I had to blank out parts of the report for the other rider's privacy We ended up going down to .242 on page 2. From the .294 baseline that's 70watts albeit the .294 baseline was bad. By run 16 I was in the .27x which is probably typical of an eyeball adjusted guy that follows the ST best practices :-) The other guy started at .27x and he is a provincial TT champ, RAAM finisher....He went from .279 to .246. At his speeds that's 65w. Thanks again - good info and great to hear that you can swim and run comfortably in them. I've worn TT suits and my understanding from most who had tried the sleeved tri suits was that they were pretty similar. And there's no way I'd be swimming (maybe running) in my skin suit. Shane |
| 2016-04-14 1:20 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
| 409 Durham, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits I'm looking into getting a sleeved tri suit for some upcoming tri's so I wanted to bump this thread to get some more specific input. 1. Are there any UK or similar retailers selling these with a good discount currently? I checked merlin, but they don't carry tri suits. 2. My main goal is sun protection and speed is secondary so I was wondering if anyone knew of any full length (or close to it) suits or tops? I've only found this one http://www.swimoutlet.com/p/kiwami-mens-kona-wings-aero-jacket-8143... 3. Are there any updates on swimming in these? I don't have the option to buy this + a swim skin. I do have a wetsuit, but some of the races I'm looking at won't be wetsuit legal and others are on the fence. |
| 2016-04-14 10:03 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
| Master 5557 , California | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by marcag Personally I think the "tightness" is being over emphasized. I have tested an LG top in xsmall, small and medium and they had similar aero properties. I couldn't breath in a XS and it was going to explode it was so tight. But t has no wrinkles. Neither did the S or M. There was no measurable aero difference between them. I swam in a small, shoulders on, under a wetsuit with no restriction. I know Nicole did the same. I wore a medium under a skinsuit and put it on while running to T1. A small would have been 'fun' to get on. There are athletes that do not feel contriicted in the shoulders. But there are athletes that don't like it. You have to try it on and it depends on the fit. Tightness is one way to get rid of wrinkles. Tailoring is another. There has to be a balance between saying the initial 10watts and then the incremental 1watt to get it super tight. Balance all that with actually getting it on or off if you need to use the facilities. As far as running in it, no problem, for a half at least. Interesting - I've only heard reports from those who had used them and not actually worn one myself. Thanks for sharing, Shane I've been wearing a long sleeve top mostly for sun protection, and yes I generally wear it under my wetsuit. This isn't a cycling time trial skinsuit, so no, it probably isn't optimal aerodynamics. But I think it's no worse than a regular tri top. At the small drag difference we're talking about -- I think I more than make up for it by not effing with sunscreen as much in T1 / T2. I'm not a powerful rider but check my Barcelona race report and take a look at my golden cheetah snapshot. Aero wasn't a problem. I haven't done a non-wetsuit race so I've never tried putting it on in T1 -- seems like it could be frustrating. |
| 2016-04-15 7:22 AM in reply to: spudone |
| 409 Durham, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits Originally posted by spudone Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by marcag Personally I think the "tightness" is being over emphasized. I have tested an LG top in xsmall, small and medium and they had similar aero properties. I couldn't breath in a XS and it was going to explode it was so tight. But t has no wrinkles. Neither did the S or M. There was no measurable aero difference between them. I swam in a small, shoulders on, under a wetsuit with no restriction. I know Nicole did the same. I wore a medium under a skinsuit and put it on while running to T1. A small would have been 'fun' to get on. There are athletes that do not feel contriicted in the shoulders. But there are athletes that don't like it. You have to try it on and it depends on the fit. Tightness is one way to get rid of wrinkles. Tailoring is another. There has to be a balance between saying the initial 10watts and then the incremental 1watt to get it super tight. Balance all that with actually getting it on or off if you need to use the facilities. As far as running in it, no problem, for a half at least. Interesting - I've only heard reports from those who had used them and not actually worn one myself. Thanks for sharing, Shane I've been wearing a long sleeve top mostly for sun protection, and yes I generally wear it under my wetsuit. This isn't a cycling time trial skinsuit, so no, it probably isn't optimal aerodynamics. But I think it's no worse than a regular tri top. At the small drag difference we're talking about -- I think I more than make up for it by not effing with sunscreen as much in T1 / T2. I'm not a powerful rider but check my Barcelona race report and take a look at my golden cheetah snapshot. Aero wasn't a problem. I haven't done a non-wetsuit race so I've never tried putting it on in T1 -- seems like it could be frustrating. Which top are you using? Where do you guys try these on? I have two local tri shops that I haven't been to in about 1 year, but back then they didn't have any in stock. |
| 2016-04-15 10:34 AM in reply to: Lupy |
| Master 5557 , California | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits For that race it was a simple Underarmour Heat Gear top I sometimes use for training because my other top got ripped. I do wish there were more options for full sleeved setups - they are out there but you have to do some scrounging. Desoto makes their skin cooler top but it has panels in the back so it isn't good for swimming or biking. Torbjorn wore one by Craft I think (?) in Kona. Nothing in this style seems to be really purpose made for tri right now. The other annoying thing is when you search for long sleeve tri tops you'll get a lot of hits for short sleeve or elbow length stuff - e.g. Castelli Stealth T1. Last - I haven't seen much coldblack either. Most of what you'll find is white, which obviously stains after a long race and has problems with body marking (see other thread)... |
| 2016-04-15 11:26 AM in reply to: spudone |
| 409 Durham, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits Originally posted by spudone For that race it was a simple Underarmour Heat Gear top I sometimes use for training because my other top got ripped. I do wish there were more options for full sleeved setups - they are out there but you have to do some scrounging. Desoto makes their skin cooler top but it has panels in the back so it isn't good for swimming or biking. Torbjorn wore one by Craft I think (?) in Kona. Nothing in this style seems to be really purpose made for tri right now. The other annoying thing is when you search for long sleeve tri tops you'll get a lot of hits for short sleeve or elbow length stuff - e.g. Castelli Stealth T1. Last - I haven't seen much coldblack either. Most of what you'll find is white, which obviously stains after a long race and has problems with body marking (see other thread)... Thanks. I've ordered 2 different ones (3 sizes) to a local store to try on. Unfortunately I gave up on looking for a full long sleeve suit for now, but it would be easy to throw something extra on during the run portion. I could also use one of those umbrella hats for the run part :D. FWIW I'm going to try the Castelli Free Sanremo and the De Soto Riviera Short Sleeve suit. I won't be able to give a personal review of them until probably the 26th or 27th, but I'll try to remember to come back with that in case anyone is interested. Also the De Soto is on sale at TriVillage in Miami if anyone is interested. It was my local shop, but they do a lot of online sales. Its a shameless plug for them :D. Even though I've never worked there it was my first try shop so I'm attached. |
| 2016-04-15 7:46 PM in reply to: Lupy |
| 156 | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits I have a Castelli Sanremo SS for this year. Nice and snug but flexible. Comfy and the chamois seems adequate. |
| 2016-04-15 8:14 PM in reply to: spudone |
Master 8248 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: Sleeved Tri Suits 2 XU has the new short-sleeved suits in black for both genders. I think the choice was all black, or black with a couple of different color accents (orange or hot pink for women, not sure for guys). Wasn't able to find the suit at the stores I checked yesterday in Singapore, but I will probably order one online when I get home for the summer. I figure it can't be any worse than swimming in a wetsuit as far as shoulder constriction. At any rate I have pretty small shoulders/upper arms--it's more likely that sleeves could be too loose and flap around if I order too big. My shoulders seem to get burned no matter what I do with sunscreen. For cooler races in the US (and, once, in a freak cool spell in central Vietnam) I can throw on a jersey over the one-piece in T1 for a longer race, but there is NO WAY I am doing a longer race with an extra layer (or wasting the time in T1 in a shorter race) in tropical heat. The 2XU suits have a fabric called Ice-X--it has decent cooling properties when wet so a black suit is not a problem. |
|
|
|
|
| |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
|
| ||||
|
| |||
|
| |||
|
|
View profile
Add to friends
Go to training log
Go to race log
Send a message
View album
CONNECT WITH FACEBOOK